My order was cancelled... Part 2
Mach 1 Member
Joined: December 13, 2006
Posts: 850
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Thanks, I am really looking forward to the TracKey also 
.
The dealer did install all the stuff, so I'm wondering what to do about it. I plan on going to a new dealer to get my first oil change soon and I'm thinking about having them take some of that off. It's not a daily driver, but still not sure how practical it is for the street. Any advice?
.The dealer did install all the stuff, so I'm wondering what to do about it. I plan on going to a new dealer to get my first oil change soon and I'm thinking about having them take some of that off. It's not a daily driver, but still not sure how practical it is for the street. Any advice?
The trans cooler scoop replaced a support bar.
The brake ducts replaced bumper valence pieces and brake rotor shields.
The front splitter replaced the standard splitter.
Hopefully the dealer gave you all the original pieces and fasteners.
Personally I wanted all the LS pieces installed because it's a Laguna Seca, and to me it needs them. Apparently car show people like it too.
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Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 5,279
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From: Dearborn, MI
So the story from this thread (https://themustangsource.com/f813/my...celled-494248/) continues.
The short version of that link is I got first in line for a Boss 302 last August, made an order for a black (the color is important in my story) Laguna Seca in December, then in April I was told they weren't getting any Laguna Seca's at all, that Ford cancelled the order.
A couple weeks ago things got interesting again, I called another local dealer who had a black LS on their website. They told me that one was already sold, and that I really should have gotten in earlier if I wanted one at all. I let him know I had placed an order at another dealer that got cancelled, he looked up some stuff and found that there were two Laguna Secas local, a silver one and a black one. The silver one was at my dealer, the black at their sister dealer. Imagine my surprise. So I stopped in the dealer to find out what was going on. Sure enough, there it was, a silver Laguna Seca. With an $89k price tag.
I tried getting some answers from my salesman. Why did they have the car they weren't getting? Why didn't they tell me about it? If it really was true they couldn't get black, why didn't they offer me silver? I thought it was a little strange how when they told me they weren't getting any Laguna Secas, they would let me know if they somehow got a black one, and if they did it was mine. Now here's a silver one with over 10 times the markup they were getting out of me.
Also, they did have a black one go through there. Bought from another dealer (with substantial markup), and I was never told about it (because they knew it was out of my price range).
So, he goes to talk to the sales manager, and almost immediately: "You want to drive it?". Well, sure, but that doesn't change anything. So I drove an 89,000 dollar Mustang (don't worry, I was nice, never got on it too hard or revved it very high, although I wasn't the first to drive this one).
I apparently live around a bunch of rich people, because this dealer is making a killing on these Boss 302s, they've been ordering them from other dealers out of state at above sticker, and selling them for even more almost immediately. Thanks to you guys and this board, I have been very well informed on the Boss 302, and was a little less impressed with the numbers the sales manager could quote me on how much they were going for. Did they conveniently push me out of the way as soon as they discovered how high they could go? There were people who warned me that maybe that is what happened.
The first draft of this post I was writing during all this, wondering what to do, hoping to get some advice. But during that time I was going back and forth on the phone with the dealer as they tried to make a deal with me. Finally we got down to the price we originally agreed on when I first ordered the car last year (above sticker unfortunately, but not a lot, I had voted on the poll here when I first ordered), for the black one at their other dealer (they swapped with the silver one). I told him I'd sleep on it.
I'm trying to keep this to a post length rather than a book, so the short of it is I went in the next morning and was there a very long time letting them know how I felt about the whole situation, and tried to get a little compensation on the price for the past 11 months of nonsense, but unfortunately they wouldn't budge.
The fact is what happened is I wanted to buy a car from Ford, and the dealer got in the way. This is a special car and I wanted it more than anyone else around, I know this because I was in the dealer first. To me that is a better metric and indication than how much somebody is willing to spend.
But in the end, right or wrong, for better or worse, I bought the car. It's been a long and exhausting journey, and it didn't end up perfect (see pic) but this is the one I fought for, number 308 is mine.
The short version of that link is I got first in line for a Boss 302 last August, made an order for a black (the color is important in my story) Laguna Seca in December, then in April I was told they weren't getting any Laguna Seca's at all, that Ford cancelled the order.
A couple weeks ago things got interesting again, I called another local dealer who had a black LS on their website. They told me that one was already sold, and that I really should have gotten in earlier if I wanted one at all. I let him know I had placed an order at another dealer that got cancelled, he looked up some stuff and found that there were two Laguna Secas local, a silver one and a black one. The silver one was at my dealer, the black at their sister dealer. Imagine my surprise. So I stopped in the dealer to find out what was going on. Sure enough, there it was, a silver Laguna Seca. With an $89k price tag.
I tried getting some answers from my salesman. Why did they have the car they weren't getting? Why didn't they tell me about it? If it really was true they couldn't get black, why didn't they offer me silver? I thought it was a little strange how when they told me they weren't getting any Laguna Secas, they would let me know if they somehow got a black one, and if they did it was mine. Now here's a silver one with over 10 times the markup they were getting out of me.
Also, they did have a black one go through there. Bought from another dealer (with substantial markup), and I was never told about it (because they knew it was out of my price range).
So, he goes to talk to the sales manager, and almost immediately: "You want to drive it?". Well, sure, but that doesn't change anything. So I drove an 89,000 dollar Mustang (don't worry, I was nice, never got on it too hard or revved it very high, although I wasn't the first to drive this one).
I apparently live around a bunch of rich people, because this dealer is making a killing on these Boss 302s, they've been ordering them from other dealers out of state at above sticker, and selling them for even more almost immediately. Thanks to you guys and this board, I have been very well informed on the Boss 302, and was a little less impressed with the numbers the sales manager could quote me on how much they were going for. Did they conveniently push me out of the way as soon as they discovered how high they could go? There were people who warned me that maybe that is what happened.
The first draft of this post I was writing during all this, wondering what to do, hoping to get some advice. But during that time I was going back and forth on the phone with the dealer as they tried to make a deal with me. Finally we got down to the price we originally agreed on when I first ordered the car last year (above sticker unfortunately, but not a lot, I had voted on the poll here when I first ordered), for the black one at their other dealer (they swapped with the silver one). I told him I'd sleep on it.
I'm trying to keep this to a post length rather than a book, so the short of it is I went in the next morning and was there a very long time letting them know how I felt about the whole situation, and tried to get a little compensation on the price for the past 11 months of nonsense, but unfortunately they wouldn't budge.
The fact is what happened is I wanted to buy a car from Ford, and the dealer got in the way. This is a special car and I wanted it more than anyone else around, I know this because I was in the dealer first. To me that is a better metric and indication than how much somebody is willing to spend.
But in the end, right or wrong, for better or worse, I bought the car. It's been a long and exhausting journey, and it didn't end up perfect (see pic) but this is the one I fought for, number 308 is mine.
Sorry to hear this story went this much farther. I am happy to hear that you finally got your Boss 302 though. I can document your experience for you if you’d like. Please, private message me with your VIN, dealer, mileage, and contact info so I can help. I do hope you are enjoying your new ride! It looks gorgeous!!
Deysha
Cobra Member
Joined: February 13, 2011
Posts: 1,399
Likes: 0
From: Southern NH
great reply
I'll give it a try.
I do not work inside the car industry, and I am not an attorney, but I have some ideas about why there is sometimes a disconnect between a manufacturer like Ford and the ultimate end-user of their products. Here is what I think might be happening:
1) I assume that there is a contractural relationship between Ford and its dealers that says something like "As long as the dealer meets Ford's standards (whatever those are) the dealer can conduct business as it feels is best." That makes sense because someone in Detroit can't have much of a feel for what will work well in Georgia (where my Boss came from.) Part of the reason for this is that Ford sells (literally) millions of vehicles a year in the US. Without developing a structure as big or bigger than the entire dealer network they could not handle that volume of transactions, and that isn't even taking the parts and service business into account.
2) I know that Ford has surveyed me on my buying experience, and I know that Ford dealers take the results of those surveys seriously, if only because Ford does. I think Ford uses these surveys to identify (and hopefully correct) service issues with its dealers.
3) Ford has something like 2,000 dealers. The "bottom" 10% is still 200 dealers. That 10% probably cause the majority of the issues we are talking about here. As someone said earlier "If you have a bad dealer experience don't buy from them and don't ever go back." Eventually that bottom 10% will go out of buisness. Of course, as long as there are 2,000 dealers there will always be that "bottom 10%" of 200 dealers. It is up to us as consumers to avoid them. If we do decide to do business with a dealer that we feel is dishonest, or even just creepy, then I feel that we share in the blame for any bad experiences.
4) Supply and Demand still works. If nobody is willing to actually pay $89K for an LS them the price will come down until it sells. As long as there are buyers willing to pay huge mark-ups then someone will be willing to sell at those prices. As long as we live in a capitalist free-market economy (full disclosure: I am in favor of that continuing) then we will continue to see that buyers and sellers will jointly determine prices.
5) Sometimes buyers don't treat dealers fairly either. I know that "two wrongs don't make a right" but some dealers can use poor behavior on the part of past buyers to be unreasonable with the buyer in front of them. I have seen several posts on this site from people who planned to "walk away" from their Boss orders for various reasons. Some of the reasons may be legit, some may not.
CONCLUSION? I am not saying that any of the above is any reason for a dealer to treat customers poorly. The questions was (as I read it) "Why isn't Ford able to completely control the Customer Experience for each Boss buyer?" The reason (IMHO) is that we are very concerned about a few thousand cars out of a few million vehicles Ford will sell in the 2012 model year. The reality is that Boss Mustangs will be about 0.1% of Ford's volume in 2012. All of the Boss cars and the other 99.9% are going through the "normal" dealer channel. Many of us would like some sort of "special" handling because these are "special" cars. Some dealers will provide that. Some won't. Ford (I believe) is concerned about Boss buyers because this is a "halo" car, but they also have to worry a whole lot more about the 99.9% of 2012 Fords that are not Boss Mustangs.
Does any of that make sense?
I do not work inside the car industry, and I am not an attorney, but I have some ideas about why there is sometimes a disconnect between a manufacturer like Ford and the ultimate end-user of their products. Here is what I think might be happening:
1) I assume that there is a contractural relationship between Ford and its dealers that says something like "As long as the dealer meets Ford's standards (whatever those are) the dealer can conduct business as it feels is best." That makes sense because someone in Detroit can't have much of a feel for what will work well in Georgia (where my Boss came from.) Part of the reason for this is that Ford sells (literally) millions of vehicles a year in the US. Without developing a structure as big or bigger than the entire dealer network they could not handle that volume of transactions, and that isn't even taking the parts and service business into account.
2) I know that Ford has surveyed me on my buying experience, and I know that Ford dealers take the results of those surveys seriously, if only because Ford does. I think Ford uses these surveys to identify (and hopefully correct) service issues with its dealers.
3) Ford has something like 2,000 dealers. The "bottom" 10% is still 200 dealers. That 10% probably cause the majority of the issues we are talking about here. As someone said earlier "If you have a bad dealer experience don't buy from them and don't ever go back." Eventually that bottom 10% will go out of buisness. Of course, as long as there are 2,000 dealers there will always be that "bottom 10%" of 200 dealers. It is up to us as consumers to avoid them. If we do decide to do business with a dealer that we feel is dishonest, or even just creepy, then I feel that we share in the blame for any bad experiences.
4) Supply and Demand still works. If nobody is willing to actually pay $89K for an LS them the price will come down until it sells. As long as there are buyers willing to pay huge mark-ups then someone will be willing to sell at those prices. As long as we live in a capitalist free-market economy (full disclosure: I am in favor of that continuing) then we will continue to see that buyers and sellers will jointly determine prices.
5) Sometimes buyers don't treat dealers fairly either. I know that "two wrongs don't make a right" but some dealers can use poor behavior on the part of past buyers to be unreasonable with the buyer in front of them. I have seen several posts on this site from people who planned to "walk away" from their Boss orders for various reasons. Some of the reasons may be legit, some may not.
CONCLUSION? I am not saying that any of the above is any reason for a dealer to treat customers poorly. The questions was (as I read it) "Why isn't Ford able to completely control the Customer Experience for each Boss buyer?" The reason (IMHO) is that we are very concerned about a few thousand cars out of a few million vehicles Ford will sell in the 2012 model year. The reality is that Boss Mustangs will be about 0.1% of Ford's volume in 2012. All of the Boss cars and the other 99.9% are going through the "normal" dealer channel. Many of us would like some sort of "special" handling because these are "special" cars. Some dealers will provide that. Some won't. Ford (I believe) is concerned about Boss buyers because this is a "halo" car, but they also have to worry a whole lot more about the 99.9% of 2012 Fords that are not Boss Mustangs.
Does any of that make sense?
The leadership of these super large organizations exist to make all the decisions required to turn a profit, first and foremost, all other considerations secondary. If that means having to have a few hundred or thousands people have a negative buying experience among the millions of customers, so be it. It's because the human element of the equation is failing here. Good old fashioned capitalistic greeeeeeeeeed.
Now unlike the US Military (bad analogy here I know, as their product is the service of global *** kicking) when there is a scandal and some commander or titular figure has to resign because they are 'ultimately responsible' for what happens on their watch, corporate America is just the opposite. It's the big picture bottom line for Ford, or any other company. A shady dealer or 2 or dozen or even hundred is unlikely to affect Ford's stock price.
So again it boils down to accountability or responsibility, take your pick. Is Ford ultimately responsible for it's own Customer Service? Golly gee, I would hope so, but is it really, in the truest sense of the word, no, I doubt it. In the end it's great the OP got his Boss, and we get to lament about what happened to him, and how horrible it was, and so on. But think about this, regarding the impact of good or great customer service to the bottom line of a well known Computer & Software company, Apple.
Why is Apple on such a roll lately, selling gazillion units of its many products, and its stock price through the roof? I'll give you 3 reasons.
1) It's leadership is making the right decisions regarding not only what it sells, but HOW it sells.
2) Embracing the philosophy of 'ease of use and simplicity' through out its product line. The market is full of the latest technology and gadgets, but Apple figured it out that the ergonomics of its products was every bit as important as the megahertz and gigabytes.
3) CUSTOMER BLEEPING SERVICE - Go to any Apple store and you are greeted by friendly staff happy to bend over backwards to help you and answer your questions. Call their phone support and what do you get? World class customer service.
Does Apple also have detractors and a small < 1% of customers who feel they got screwed and are unhappy? Sure, all companies do. Is it practical to think that Ford could have it's dealerships run like an Apple store, no, I don't think so. But what if Ford Customer Service was? And all those folks who twisted in the wind while their Boss sat on Ramp 51 or some rail car in Padookaville with no updates for weeks on end would instead had a friggin app on their smartphone and could tell you were exactly their car was the second it rolled off the production line because the 'location service' was enabled? I can do run on sentences with the best of em!
Food for thought.
Thread Starter
GT Member
Joined: December 15, 2010
Posts: 138
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From: Colorado
Sigh, looks like I'm talking to the dealer again.
I can totally understand that!
Thanks Deysha, I'm not sure what I want to do exactly, I'll send you a PM.
Personally I wanted all the LS pieces installed because it's a Laguna Seca, and to me it needs them. Apparently car show people like it too.
Hey RixterGT,
Sorry to hear this story went this much farther. I am happy to hear that you finally got your Boss 302 though. I can document your experience for you if you’d like. Please, private message me with your VIN, dealer, mileage, and contact info so I can help. I do hope you are enjoying your new ride! It looks gorgeous!!
Deysha
Sorry to hear this story went this much farther. I am happy to hear that you finally got your Boss 302 though. I can document your experience for you if you’d like. Please, private message me with your VIN, dealer, mileage, and contact info so I can help. I do hope you are enjoying your new ride! It looks gorgeous!!
Deysha
Team Mustang Source
Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 2,126
Likes: 1
From: CT
I bought my first new Ford since 1987. The car was great. And the dealer I ultimately went with was OK but the whole experience basically sucked. In the market for a small car. Fully expected to by a Fiesta or Focus before finding out how Ford dealers operate. Now likely to be some other brand. Ford, the company as well as a Ford dealer lost a guaranteed sale. Greed is never good. Look at the US economy.
If they lost a guaranteed sale why is it only "likely to be some other brand"?
Congrats to op! I would get the parts and forget the rest and enjoy the car.
Cobra R Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1,752
Likes: 1
From: Ontario
Originally Posted by 2005GTDELUXE
If they lost a guaranteed sale why is it only "likely to be some other brand"?
Congrats to op! I would get the parts and forget the rest and enjoy the car.
Cobra Member
Joined: October 9, 2004
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
I'll give it a try.
I do not work inside the car industry, and I am not an attorney, but I have some ideas about why there is sometimes a disconnect between a manufacturer like Ford and the ultimate end-user of their products. Here is what I think might be happening:
1) I assume that there is a contractural relationship between Ford and its dealers that says something like "As long as the dealer meets Ford's standards (whatever those are) the dealer can conduct business as it feels is best." That makes sense because someone in Detroit can't have much of a feel for what will work well in Georgia (where my Boss came from.) Part of the reason for this is that Ford sells (literally) millions of vehicles a year in the US. Without developing a structure as big or bigger than the entire dealer network they could not handle that volume of transactions, and that isn't even taking the parts and service business into account.
2) I know that Ford has surveyed me on my buying experience, and I know that Ford dealers take the results of those surveys seriously, if only because Ford does. I think Ford uses these surveys to identify (and hopefully correct) service issues with its dealers.
3) Ford has something like 2,000 dealers. The "bottom" 10% is still 200 dealers. That 10% probably cause the majority of the issues we are talking about here. As someone said earlier "If you have a bad dealer experience don't buy from them and don't ever go back." Eventually that bottom 10% will go out of buisness. Of course, as long as there are 2,000 dealers there will always be that "bottom 10%" of 200 dealers. It is up to us as consumers to avoid them. If we do decide to do business with a dealer that we feel is dishonest, or even just creepy, then I feel that we share in the blame for any bad experiences.
4) Supply and Demand still works. If nobody is willing to actually pay $89K for an LS them the price will come down until it sells. As long as there are buyers willing to pay huge mark-ups then someone will be willing to sell at those prices. As long as we live in a capitalist free-market economy (full disclosure: I am in favor of that continuing) then we will continue to see that buyers and sellers will jointly determine prices.
5) Sometimes buyers don't treat dealers fairly either. I know that "two wrongs don't make a right" but some dealers can use poor behavior on the part of past buyers to be unreasonable with the buyer in front of them. I have seen several posts on this site from people who planned to "walk away" from their Boss orders for various reasons. Some of the reasons may be legit, some may not.
CONCLUSION? I am not saying that any of the above is any reason for a dealer to treat customers poorly. The questions was (as I read it) "Why isn't Ford able to completely control the Customer Experience for each Boss buyer?" The reason (IMHO) is that we are very concerned about a few thousand cars out of a few million vehicles Ford will sell in the 2012 model year. The reality is that Boss Mustangs will be about 0.1% of Ford's volume in 2012. All of the Boss cars and the other 99.9% are going through the "normal" dealer channel. Many of us would like some sort of "special" handling because these are "special" cars. Some dealers will provide that. Some won't. Ford (I believe) is concerned about Boss buyers because this is a "halo" car, but they also have to worry a whole lot more about the 99.9% of 2012 Fords that are not Boss Mustangs.
Does any of that make sense?
I do not work inside the car industry, and I am not an attorney, but I have some ideas about why there is sometimes a disconnect between a manufacturer like Ford and the ultimate end-user of their products. Here is what I think might be happening:
1) I assume that there is a contractural relationship between Ford and its dealers that says something like "As long as the dealer meets Ford's standards (whatever those are) the dealer can conduct business as it feels is best." That makes sense because someone in Detroit can't have much of a feel for what will work well in Georgia (where my Boss came from.) Part of the reason for this is that Ford sells (literally) millions of vehicles a year in the US. Without developing a structure as big or bigger than the entire dealer network they could not handle that volume of transactions, and that isn't even taking the parts and service business into account.
2) I know that Ford has surveyed me on my buying experience, and I know that Ford dealers take the results of those surveys seriously, if only because Ford does. I think Ford uses these surveys to identify (and hopefully correct) service issues with its dealers.
3) Ford has something like 2,000 dealers. The "bottom" 10% is still 200 dealers. That 10% probably cause the majority of the issues we are talking about here. As someone said earlier "If you have a bad dealer experience don't buy from them and don't ever go back." Eventually that bottom 10% will go out of buisness. Of course, as long as there are 2,000 dealers there will always be that "bottom 10%" of 200 dealers. It is up to us as consumers to avoid them. If we do decide to do business with a dealer that we feel is dishonest, or even just creepy, then I feel that we share in the blame for any bad experiences.
4) Supply and Demand still works. If nobody is willing to actually pay $89K for an LS them the price will come down until it sells. As long as there are buyers willing to pay huge mark-ups then someone will be willing to sell at those prices. As long as we live in a capitalist free-market economy (full disclosure: I am in favor of that continuing) then we will continue to see that buyers and sellers will jointly determine prices.
5) Sometimes buyers don't treat dealers fairly either. I know that "two wrongs don't make a right" but some dealers can use poor behavior on the part of past buyers to be unreasonable with the buyer in front of them. I have seen several posts on this site from people who planned to "walk away" from their Boss orders for various reasons. Some of the reasons may be legit, some may not.
CONCLUSION? I am not saying that any of the above is any reason for a dealer to treat customers poorly. The questions was (as I read it) "Why isn't Ford able to completely control the Customer Experience for each Boss buyer?" The reason (IMHO) is that we are very concerned about a few thousand cars out of a few million vehicles Ford will sell in the 2012 model year. The reality is that Boss Mustangs will be about 0.1% of Ford's volume in 2012. All of the Boss cars and the other 99.9% are going through the "normal" dealer channel. Many of us would like some sort of "special" handling because these are "special" cars. Some dealers will provide that. Some won't. Ford (I believe) is concerned about Boss buyers because this is a "halo" car, but they also have to worry a whole lot more about the 99.9% of 2012 Fords that are not Boss Mustangs.
Does any of that make sense?
End all dealer relationships. Build Ford stores much like Apple Stores. Control the entire product. Build happy zealot car owners.
I bought my first new Ford since 1987. The car was great. And the dealer I ultimately went with was OK but the whole experience basically sucked. In the market for a small car. Fully expected to by a Fiesta or Focus before finding out how Ford dealers operate. Now likely to be some other brand. Ford, the company as well as a Ford dealer lost a guaranteed sale. Greed is never good. Look at the US economy.
I bought my first new Ford since 1987. The car was great. And the dealer I ultimately went with was OK but the whole experience basically sucked. In the market for a small car. Fully expected to by a Fiesta or Focus before finding out how Ford dealers operate. Now likely to be some other brand. Ford, the company as well as a Ford dealer lost a guaranteed sale. Greed is never good. Look at the US economy.
http://adage.com/article/news/ford-s...lection/64614/
Last edited by PACETTR; Jul 25, 2011 at 11:57 PM.
V6 Member
Joined: April 19, 2011
Posts: 64
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From: Ithaca Michigan
Oh really? How do they stay in business? 
Yeah, I got it, dealers , sell cars. But unlike say a wheat farmer, who produces a product, but doesn't really have much of any influence on the satisfaction of customers who buy "Wonder Bread", a billion dollar company like Ford could. It's mighty convenient for Ford to manufacture a product, and then divorce themselves of any of the minutiae of John Doe, who has a problem like the OP. Is it practical or reasonable to expect the manufacturer to get involved in issues like this? No, not really...
That burden falls to customer service, which Ford does have direct control over. It's a tough job, as there are many folks who are having issues with their 6spd manual transmissions can relate. Those folks are already on the hook for a financial burden, whereas the OP was the victim of possibly shady/unethical business practices. Such are the pitfalls of a free market capitalist economy. Got taken for a ride by a shady dealer? Go find another one.
I'm glad the OP finally got his LS, maybe he'll appreciate it even more after all he's been through.
Yeah, I got it, dealers , sell cars. But unlike say a wheat farmer, who produces a product, but doesn't really have much of any influence on the satisfaction of customers who buy "Wonder Bread", a billion dollar company like Ford could. It's mighty convenient for Ford to manufacture a product, and then divorce themselves of any of the minutiae of John Doe, who has a problem like the OP. Is it practical or reasonable to expect the manufacturer to get involved in issues like this? No, not really...
That burden falls to customer service, which Ford does have direct control over. It's a tough job, as there are many folks who are having issues with their 6spd manual transmissions can relate. Those folks are already on the hook for a financial burden, whereas the OP was the victim of possibly shady/unethical business practices. Such are the pitfalls of a free market capitalist economy. Got taken for a ride by a shady dealer? Go find another one.
I'm glad the OP finally got his LS, maybe he'll appreciate it even more after all he's been through.
Bob
NOT CURRENTLY ACTIVE ON THIS SITE! DO NOT USE PM FEATURE!
Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 5,279
Likes: 16
From: Dearborn, MI
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