lowering the boss?
3/1/11 | 02:17 PM
#41
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: November 20, 2010
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 1
From: Sioux Falls, SD
Just to make you guys aware. I have all the information on how the springs and bars such differ on the Boss and Boss Laguna vs. normal GT's.
I also have a lot of experience with making S197's handle, and I gotta say that it's not my ideal, and I do feel we can improve it greatly. I think it's way too stiff in the rear relative to the front, it's got not enough front spring or bar, and too much rear bar. The dampers will be workable, but not ideal. They are just glorified Tokico Illumina's which are lower tech and older design than the D-spec which aren't too bad--but not Koni Sports either.
The deal here is pretty simple. The car was setup on a nice smooth track, one that is not the norm. That allowed them to get away with a lot stiffer rear setup vs. the front than what will really work well less nice surfaces. Also, there is a matter of how the cars are driven, and while they drive them quickly they aren't pushing to the very limit--which again allows the rear to be stiffer than I can put up with. Hell the stock GT is too ***-happy, and one of the first mods I made upon changing classes was to put a 22mm adjustable rear bar on the car vs. the stock 24.
Camber.... Boss cars come with more static negative camber, LS's have more than a normal car, which have more than a GT. -2 is great for track use, too much for a street car that's daily driven.
I also have a lot of experience with making S197's handle, and I gotta say that it's not my ideal, and I do feel we can improve it greatly. I think it's way too stiff in the rear relative to the front, it's got not enough front spring or bar, and too much rear bar. The dampers will be workable, but not ideal. They are just glorified Tokico Illumina's which are lower tech and older design than the D-spec which aren't too bad--but not Koni Sports either.
The deal here is pretty simple. The car was setup on a nice smooth track, one that is not the norm. That allowed them to get away with a lot stiffer rear setup vs. the front than what will really work well less nice surfaces. Also, there is a matter of how the cars are driven, and while they drive them quickly they aren't pushing to the very limit--which again allows the rear to be stiffer than I can put up with. Hell the stock GT is too ***-happy, and one of the first mods I made upon changing classes was to put a 22mm adjustable rear bar on the car vs. the stock 24.
Camber.... Boss cars come with more static negative camber, LS's have more than a normal car, which have more than a GT. -2 is great for track use, too much for a street car that's daily driven.
3/1/11 | 02:36 PM
#43
GT Member
Joined: November 23, 2010
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Dave
3/1/11 | 03:07 PM
#44
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 28, 2008
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: Brookville, PA
Don't worry about the length, there is not an issue with the stock shocks being too long or anything when lowered. The issue is that the valving isn't meant to work in less travel or with higher rate springs. That said the fact the car has adjustables makes that less the case, as you can up the damping needed to control higher rate springs in the shorter travel.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
3/1/11 | 05:47 PM
#45
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 12, 2011
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
From: Knoxville, TN
Don't worry about the length, there is not an issue with the stock shocks being too long or anything when lowered. The issue is that the valving isn't meant to work in less travel or with higher rate springs. That said the fact the car has adjustables makes that less the case, as you can up the damping needed to control higher rate springs in the shorter travel.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
3/1/11 | 05:57 PM
#46
Cobra Member
Joined: August 5, 2008
Posts: 1,369
Likes: 0
From: Arvada, CO
Guess that was just an assumption I made, but what you said makes more sense. I stand edumicated!
3/2/11 | 12:38 PM
#48
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 28, 2008
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: Brookville, PA
I have other spring preferences to Ford Racing springs, and which springs kind of depends on what folks are doing. But far and away I use a particular version of Steeda Sport springs than anything else.
Any spring you choose will work with the stock dampers... but the stock dampers have pretty coarse adjustments and I tend to prefer a more focused adjustment. The stock ones adjust both compression and rebound together, more of one does not mean you want more of the other. And they only have 5 settings. Again, they are not "new" shocks in that Tokico Illumina's have been around a long, long time. They have just never been made for the S197 (they were for Fox and SN95 cars and I prefer Koni's there too).
The first two things I'd change on a Boss? The springs and the swaybars, particularly the rear but the front isn't really ideal either as it's bound of up from the factory for turn in response. But you get more of that with a spring and damper change anyway and I don't like making the suspension stick to make things more reactive.
Any spring you choose will work with the stock dampers... but the stock dampers have pretty coarse adjustments and I tend to prefer a more focused adjustment. The stock ones adjust both compression and rebound together, more of one does not mean you want more of the other. And they only have 5 settings. Again, they are not "new" shocks in that Tokico Illumina's have been around a long, long time. They have just never been made for the S197 (they were for Fox and SN95 cars and I prefer Koni's there too).
The first two things I'd change on a Boss? The springs and the swaybars, particularly the rear but the front isn't really ideal either as it's bound of up from the factory for turn in response. But you get more of that with a spring and damper change anyway and I don't like making the suspension stick to make things more reactive.
3/2/11 | 01:05 PM
#49
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 25, 2011
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
From: Lakeland, FL
I have other spring preferences to Ford Racing springs, and which springs kind of depends on what folks are doing. But far and away I use a particular version of Steeda Sport springs than anything else.
Any spring you choose will work with the stock dampers... but the stock dampers have pretty coarse adjustments and I tend to prefer a more focused adjustment. The stock ones adjust both compression and rebound together, more of one does not mean you want more of the other. And they only have 5 settings. Again, they are not "new" shocks in that Tokico Illumina's have been around a long, long time. They have just never been made for the S197 (they were for Fox and SN95 cars and I prefer Koni's there too).
The first two things I'd change on a Boss? The springs and the swaybars, particularly the rear but the front isn't really ideal either as it's bound of up from the factory for turn in response. But you get more of that with a spring and damper change anyway and I don't like making the suspension stick to make things more reactive.
Any spring you choose will work with the stock dampers... but the stock dampers have pretty coarse adjustments and I tend to prefer a more focused adjustment. The stock ones adjust both compression and rebound together, more of one does not mean you want more of the other. And they only have 5 settings. Again, they are not "new" shocks in that Tokico Illumina's have been around a long, long time. They have just never been made for the S197 (they were for Fox and SN95 cars and I prefer Koni's there too).
The first two things I'd change on a Boss? The springs and the swaybars, particularly the rear but the front isn't really ideal either as it's bound of up from the factory for turn in response. But you get more of that with a spring and damper change anyway and I don't like making the suspension stick to make things more reactive.
3/2/11 | 03:58 PM
#51
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 10, 2011
Posts: 290
Likes: 0
From: a racetrack somewhere
I am specifically getting a Boss so that I can (hopefully) stop my addiction of modifying the suspension of the cars I own. On my daily driver / track car MINI Cooper S here is an example of how this addiction has affected me. In just the suspension, I've replaced the stock component with: H&R RSS Coilovers, Mini-Madness rear suspension poly bushings, RDR Control Arms (two on each of the rear suspension points), RDR rear swaybar, Powergrids end links for the control arms. I could go on with other mods, but to me the beauty of the Boss is that Ford's engineers (and no one else's) did it all at the factory with a warranty!!!! Please Ford, help me get over my suspension modification addiction! I need help, any you have the prescription. Changes to the suspension? Maybe just a set of Corsa tires like the LS has.
3/2/11 | 05:17 PM
#52
GT Member
Joined: November 23, 2010
Posts: 193
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Don't worry about the length, there is not an issue with the stock shocks being too long or anything when lowered. The issue is that the valving isn't meant to work in less travel or with higher rate springs. That said the fact the car has adjustables makes that less the case, as you can up the damping needed to control higher rate springs in the shorter travel.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
You will not wear the shocks out faster if you lower because of length... it's just that it requires more damping than stock height/softer springs and when the damping get a little weaker you see it much more on a damper that had no wiggle room to start with.
On a side note still related to suspension, whose camber plates will you be using? Terry's? How about the rear upper spherical ball joint? Can you recommend a PU bushing brand?
Did you figure out the wheel offset yet? +40-55mm rear?
Save me a black Fays2 Watts Link.
Dave
3/3/11 | 08:02 AM
#53
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 23, 2011
Posts: 204
Likes: 1
Come to think of it, more than one reviewer of the Boss who drove it on the track as well as the street commented that they liked the handling much more on the street with the rear dampeners set softer. This is all adding up.
3/3/11 | 08:47 AM
#54
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Joined: December 18, 2010
Posts: 3,708
Likes: 0
From: NorCal
Sam, below are comments from the Insideline skidpad tests. How do these compare to what you are thinking the Boss will need?
"Handling: Skid pad: This car has a ton of grip, but perhaps a little too much front roll stiffness, because at the limit with ESC off, just as it begins to use rear slip-angle, the front would begin to understeer. It required lots of prediction and steering input/output to maintain the arc, but I cannot dispute the performance it supplies. With ESC in Sport/dynamic mode, it would simply cut throttle to avoid the rear slip. Slalom: Similar story here (with ESC off): The car would rotate predictably with drop-throttle at (or just before) each cone, then understeer slightly after the transition (busy hands and right foot). Also, because the initial turn-in is so quick and the feel is somewhat lacking, it makes this test more of an exercise in rhythm and prediction rather than one of "feeling" your way through the cones. This car requires a leap of faith that tire grip will be there when you need it. The LSD works very, very well on the exit. ESC Sport merely takes away the throttle at the exit and the car essentially coasts past the timers -- otherwise ESC remains in the shadows."
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...guna-seca.html
"Handling: Skid pad: This car has a ton of grip, but perhaps a little too much front roll stiffness, because at the limit with ESC off, just as it begins to use rear slip-angle, the front would begin to understeer. It required lots of prediction and steering input/output to maintain the arc, but I cannot dispute the performance it supplies. With ESC in Sport/dynamic mode, it would simply cut throttle to avoid the rear slip. Slalom: Similar story here (with ESC off): The car would rotate predictably with drop-throttle at (or just before) each cone, then understeer slightly after the transition (busy hands and right foot). Also, because the initial turn-in is so quick and the feel is somewhat lacking, it makes this test more of an exercise in rhythm and prediction rather than one of "feeling" your way through the cones. This car requires a leap of faith that tire grip will be there when you need it. The LSD works very, very well on the exit. ESC Sport merely takes away the throttle at the exit and the car essentially coasts past the timers -- otherwise ESC remains in the shadows."
http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...guna-seca.html
3/3/11 | 09:55 AM
#55
Thread Starter
Bullitt Member
Joined: January 16, 2011
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
From: Norcal, SF Bay Area
consistent...
at least on the front end roll issue...sounds like Sam was spot on when he said that the cars tend to get their front end stiffness from a bound up front bar. totally consistent, btw, with the best wisdom in the porsche track community...you've gotta go to adjustable drop links the take the pre-load out of the front bar, otherwise it's a real liability going stiff. once you do, you realize how much the cars push when the front end is allowed to work. I suspect the same will be true of the mustang. I bet if you get a good drop link / bar combo...a set front and rear that's thoughtfully matched, square out the wheels / tires (to something like 275's to 285's all around) and swap out the springs to something stiffer and lower, you'd make a huge improvement in the boss's handling...for not a lot of dough. the stock dampers aren't the best, but I bet they could keep up for a while.
3/3/11 | 12:11 PM
#56
Mach 1 Member
Joined: January 14, 2011
Posts: 583
Likes: 0
From: NorCal
I don't understand the concept of sway bar preload, unless it's the driver's weight that is doing the preloading. When a car is sitting level with symmetrical weight down the centerline, there should be no sway bar preload.
Interesting read:
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=30
Interesting read:
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=30
3/3/11 | 12:57 PM
#57
Shelby GT350 Member
Joined: November 20, 2010
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 1
From: Sioux Falls, SD
I don't understand the concept of sway bar preload, unless it's the driver's weight that is doing the preloading. When a car is sitting level with symmetrical weight down the centerline, there should be no sway bar preload.
Interesting read:
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=30
Interesting read:
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=30
3/3/11 | 02:03 PM
#58
Cobra Member
Joined: August 5, 2008
Posts: 1,369
Likes: 0
From: Arvada, CO
The adjustable endlinks can be used to remove preload on the swaybar generally, so you can imagine if one endlink is 6 inches too long, the swaybar would already be pulling on the opposite side. If they're set ideally while at normal ride height neither side is preloaded.
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