Parts Supplier leaking 2015 information... ?
6/3/12, 12:28 AM
#141
Shelby GT350 Member
What is interesting is back in the day, the European Fords used to be strongly influenced by the designs of American Fords...
6/3/12, 02:03 AM
#142
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I'm really baffled why anyone would think it would be. Are there people that actually think Ford is dumb enough to simply make the Mustang a Fusion coupe?
That said, the Mustang has always, to varying degrees, had European influence interwoven into its design language so it's always humorous to me how people whine about the new one not being "merrikan" enough...
That said, the Mustang has always, to varying degrees, had European influence interwoven into its design language so it's always humorous to me how people whine about the new one not being "merrikan" enough...
I ask because, well, I resemble the object of either sentiment, and I'd just as soon be clear as to which had been intended, (if either.)
Now as for other matters, Overboost asked a question on page two of this thread I'd like to address:
In my own family, admittedly Mustang-crazy, in that year range, there are a pair of 2012s and a pair of 2013s. One GT(mine.) All the others are V6 cars, and save the small base model spoiler on my daughter's car, there's barely an option among them. They all have base model wheels. They all have base stereos. They all have cloth seats. None have any lighting or electronics options from the factory.
If I throw out the age of my wife as the only one of only two 30 or over in the group of 11 V6 owners, the only one over 32, and the average age is 26. I don't dare mention how much she skews the average, for the sake of my skin.
Of the 11 V6 owners, 9 of them are female. All but two of these(my wife's, and my son-in-law's) are automatic transmissions.
Among the 5 GT owners, 4 are male, and there are two automatics. The automatics both belong to male drivers, one the oldest in the group, at 53, and the other to a guy of 31. None are convertibles. Two are the base GT model(not premium). Average age in this group, including me(46) is right at 42.
As I said, this is a small sample group. Nevertheless, one might make some guesses about the contention of the original question. At least 6 of the 11 V6 cars are base, as delivered, and it would be 7 if my daughter's car didn't have that small spoiler. 1 is a convertible, and 1 is an '05 or '06 with the "Pony package." The other two are equipped with some options, but I don't know whether they would be V6 base or deluxe.
It would seem to me based upon what I see in my circle, and in the general vicinity that younger buyers tend toward base model cars, a correlation I strongly suspect could be linked to pricing. My very first new Mustang was a 4 cylinder '88 LX, and it was very much a base model car. I was a soldier serving in Europe at the time, and the number of those sold there was fairly large. The number of GT cars or LX 5.0s sold at the time was pretty small, at least in our community. I wound up with an '89 GT, for the record, but I was the exception. I also think I was the youngest GT owner in the group at the time(23).
I suspect Ford knows well that the base model car is appealing to younger buyers who might one day like to have a GT, but aren't financially ready for one. Many people in that age bracket don't have kids, and when they do, it also seems they tend to ditch the Mustangs for family cars. When they become empty-nesters later on, they may come back, as is true of 3 of the 5 GT owners(self included) in my sample group, and one of the V6 owners(my wife.)
I'd love to see a statistical study of who buys Mustangs, broken down both by options, models, as well as age and sex. I'm sure Ford tracks that kind of thing quite closely, as they must certainly want to know who their customers are likely to be. To answer Overboost's question, however, I suspect bare-bones base models make up a larger share of cars than 1%.
Then again, what the hell does a "merrikan" know about it?
Last edited by MarkAmerica; 6/3/12 at 10:47 AM.
6/3/12, 09:44 AM
#143
6/3/12, 10:54 AM
#144
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908ssp, Thanks for those production numbers. 27k of 68k seems a good bit more than 1%, and while I'm sure there is some number of options on a large number of those V6 cars, I'm also sure there are a larger number than 1% of the total production run in base models. Including convertibles, the V6 cars were a clear majority of the production run. Great find, and thanks again!
6/3/12, 01:21 PM
#145
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I'd like to think Ford's not that dumb. By "merrikan," what exactly are you suggesting? Is that your approach to expressing disdain toward those who may think that American automotive design ought to reflect certain American traditions, or is it simply the means by which you express contempt for good, old-fashioned patriots allegedly sporting necks of a particular shade who may tend to hold some level of contempt for most things of contemporary European origin?
I ask because, well, I resemble the object of either sentiment, and I'd just as soon be clear as to which had been intended, (if either.)
I ask because, well, I resemble the object of either sentiment, and I'd just as soon be clear as to which had been intended, (if either.)
I'm all for American cars sporting American design tradition, but the Mustang is not like most American cars.
It's just ridiculous to me that people have have "some level of contempt" for the idea of a Mustang sporting contemporary European design cues ("it won't be a Mustang!") when that is exactly how the "all-American" Mustang started out. This is not new territory for the Mustang so people need to quit acting like it is. I love the retro look of the S197s and will be sad to see it go. However, I suspect the new Mustang will still be retro in some regards, if not aesthetically, then in philosophy.
Last edited by Wolfsburg; 6/3/12 at 01:22 PM.
6/3/12, 01:52 PM
#146
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Why? So you can look down on me from yours?
So in shorthand, what I said. "Disdain:" Check
Well Hallelujah!
So again, like I said. "Contempt:" Check.
It's not entirely new territory. I agree. Ford also built Pintos, so the novelty of a thing doesn't necessarily make it good, either.
Nice to meet you.
Mark
You're reading too much into this. "Merrikan", and several variations of it, is not a term coined by me and has been used here many times before. By me, its use is aimed at those that: think the car is ruined if it sports "European"-influenced styling, have a incorrect/1-dimensional view of what the Mustang is, think the Mustang is a "muscle car", etc.
Nice to meet you.
Mark
Last edited by MarkAmerica; 6/3/12 at 01:54 PM.
6/3/12, 02:26 PM
#147
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All I've got to say about this is, how can the Mustang not be influenced by European Sporting, when their target landed squarely on the M3? You can't be completely uninfluenced by another market if your objective is to beat them. Furthermore, what is good for the next generation, will be good for the brand. Remember the II? Yeah, it saved the Mustang line. Hate it if you like, but it met the demands of the market at the time, and kept the Mustang brand alive. They contribute to the reason we have high horsepower, AND fuel efficient Mustangs now. Future CAFE standards hang over our relative fuel efficiency and IMHO the Mustang will again have to adapt, possibly offer some alternatives again, and dare I say it, these may involve "other than Petro" alternatives. But if you want a choice of a cool car in 2025, you might also have to adapt your vision of what makes a car cool. That said, keep the spirit of the Mustang alive, which as stated above in so many words, is a working man's sport car.
As for the rest of your argument, we are all Mustang fans here, from Merrikans, to Metros. I don't distinguish the worth of either being better than another. Can't we all get along?
As for the rest of your argument, we are all Mustang fans here, from Merrikans, to Metros. I don't distinguish the worth of either being better than another. Can't we all get along?
6/3/12, 02:50 PM
#148
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Max5ive8, I've got no problem with the idea that the Mustang is up against the BMW, and that this would have some effect on the design. In order to compete, you have to fit into the class, certainly, so there are going to be at least a basic number of shared general characteristics.
I realize the Mustang II kept the line alive, but I also know their shortcomings, which were plentiful in my view.
Now, as for your next point? I don't think there should BE CAFE standards.
I don't expect to be around in 2025. I might be in 2017, and maybe beginning to think about trading in my 2013, if I decide I like the 2015s and up. I'm like everybody else doing the "wait and see."
To me, what makes a car cool is how it performs, and how it looks, and what my driving experience is like, and the ability to do that at a not-so-stratospheric price has been the factor that has kept me engaged with Mustangs. It's also why I like the fact that Ford stepped up on the V6 cars and made them pretty fair performers. The current V6 base car is miles ahead of that '88 LX four-banger I once had, and it's engaging a new generation that rather than looking back lovingly at the 60s cars, as I did, are now looking back with fondness/nostalgia on the Fox-bodies. I understand why, too: Just as I was a wee youngster in the beginning years of the line, so were the current generation of youngsters when the Fox bodies were prowling.
Back in the day, my Dad had a 69 Torino GT, and a neighbor a few houses down had an original Boss 302. Those cars formed my impressions, just as my 89 GT formed my daughter's. Now she drives a 2012 V6 car. So yes, we're all Mustang fans, and I have no problem making way for the new generation, but I don't want to let go entirely, just yet.
Good to meet you.
Mark
I realize the Mustang II kept the line alive, but I also know their shortcomings, which were plentiful in my view.
Now, as for your next point? I don't think there should BE CAFE standards.
I don't expect to be around in 2025. I might be in 2017, and maybe beginning to think about trading in my 2013, if I decide I like the 2015s and up. I'm like everybody else doing the "wait and see."
To me, what makes a car cool is how it performs, and how it looks, and what my driving experience is like, and the ability to do that at a not-so-stratospheric price has been the factor that has kept me engaged with Mustangs. It's also why I like the fact that Ford stepped up on the V6 cars and made them pretty fair performers. The current V6 base car is miles ahead of that '88 LX four-banger I once had, and it's engaging a new generation that rather than looking back lovingly at the 60s cars, as I did, are now looking back with fondness/nostalgia on the Fox-bodies. I understand why, too: Just as I was a wee youngster in the beginning years of the line, so were the current generation of youngsters when the Fox bodies were prowling.
Back in the day, my Dad had a 69 Torino GT, and a neighbor a few houses down had an original Boss 302. Those cars formed my impressions, just as my 89 GT formed my daughter's. Now she drives a 2012 V6 car. So yes, we're all Mustang fans, and I have no problem making way for the new generation, but I don't want to let go entirely, just yet.
Good to meet you.
Mark
6/3/12, 03:13 PM
#149
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Why? So you can look down on me from yours?
So in shorthand, what I said. "Disdain:" Check
Well Hallelujah!
So again, like I said. "Contempt:" Check.
It's not entirely new territory. I agree. Ford also built Pintos, so the novelty of a thing doesn't necessarily make it good, either.
Nice to meet you.
Mark
So in shorthand, what I said. "Disdain:" Check
Well Hallelujah!
So again, like I said. "Contempt:" Check.
It's not entirely new territory. I agree. Ford also built Pintos, so the novelty of a thing doesn't necessarily make it good, either.
Nice to meet you.
Mark
My point is simply that I don't think the Mustang is swerving off course if it features some European styling since it has done so numerous times since its inception. What people call "American" styling, in regards to the Mustang, has always had European origins. Sorry if you disagree.
Nice to meet you and enjoy your stay.
6/3/12, 03:16 PM
#150
GTR Member
Wow, there's a lot of love in here today 
I'm a Limey (I'm gonna have to Google that in a minute to see exactly what that means! ) so take my comments for what they're worth..........
Sure, original Mustang design was influenced by contemporary European cars, some of them quite exotic (think Maserati 3500), but it offered them in a package available to the working man. For me, by the late sixties, that styling was morphed into what we now recognise as the classic Mustang style.....a style all of its own. OK, it grew a bit flabby and lost a bit of muscle in the early 70s, but it still looked like it mean business.
Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive.
Then came the Fox era. For me, these are the most bland Mustangs (in terms of looks) and that's possibly because, as a Brit, I see many styling cues from contemporary European Fords of the 80s, so it apprears less "American" to me. BUT, it's still a car I admire even if I'm so-so on the looks.
Then came the SN95. Still very Euro-inspired in the looks department, but this time they remembered to add the all important key styling elements.....tri-bar tail lamps, C-scoop etc. Many non-Mustang fans in the UK think they look "Japanese" though.
With the S197, we came full circle. The styling mimicked all those glamorous Stangs of the 60s........but now, ironically, there was no modern European equivilent (in terms of looks) so that's where, again as a Brit, the S197 is ALL AMERICAN to me.
Roll on to the present day and the Mustang finds itself in a world where the economy is in the toilet, fuel prices are higher than ever and, for me, most crucially, it probably has more competition now that it ever has in its past. It seems most players have a "pony car" of some description, from the BMW 3 series, Audi A5 to the Hyundai coupes and every manufacturer inbetween. All have their own style of dancing, but the tune is the same.
But, crucially for me, the S197 looks so different to all those competitors that it's actually not a competitor at all. That unique "American" look, is what turned me onto it....and why all the BMW, Audi and Korean coupes bore me. It's the best of the 60s with the dynamics to (just) keep up with the best from the rest of the world.
Still, I'm sure whatever the next-gen Mustang looks like, I'll love it. No doubt it will be a more capable car than the S197, but it may also just be a little more bland, and that's what I'm afraid of.
Still bland is a relative term and if it looks anything like Top Notch's last sketch, it'll still be a great looking car.
I'm a Limey (I'm gonna have to Google that in a minute to see exactly what that means!
) so take my comments for what they're worth..........Sure, original Mustang design was influenced by contemporary European cars, some of them quite exotic (think Maserati 3500), but it offered them in a package available to the working man. For me, by the late sixties, that styling was morphed into what we now recognise as the classic Mustang style.....a style all of its own. OK, it grew a bit flabby and lost a bit of muscle in the early 70s, but it still looked like it mean business.
Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive.
Then came the Fox era. For me, these are the most bland Mustangs (in terms of looks) and that's possibly because, as a Brit, I see many styling cues from contemporary European Fords of the 80s, so it apprears less "American" to me. BUT, it's still a car I admire even if I'm so-so on the looks.
Then came the SN95. Still very Euro-inspired in the looks department, but this time they remembered to add the all important key styling elements.....tri-bar tail lamps, C-scoop etc. Many non-Mustang fans in the UK think they look "Japanese" though.
With the S197, we came full circle. The styling mimicked all those glamorous Stangs of the 60s........but now, ironically, there was no modern European equivilent (in terms of looks) so that's where, again as a Brit, the S197 is ALL AMERICAN to me.
Roll on to the present day and the Mustang finds itself in a world where the economy is in the toilet, fuel prices are higher than ever and, for me, most crucially, it probably has more competition now that it ever has in its past. It seems most players have a "pony car" of some description, from the BMW 3 series, Audi A5 to the Hyundai coupes and every manufacturer inbetween. All have their own style of dancing, but the tune is the same.
But, crucially for me, the S197 looks so different to all those competitors that it's actually not a competitor at all. That unique "American" look, is what turned me onto it....and why all the BMW, Audi and Korean coupes bore me. It's the best of the 60s with the dynamics to (just) keep up with the best from the rest of the world.
Still, I'm sure whatever the next-gen Mustang looks like, I'll love it. No doubt it will be a more capable car than the S197, but it may also just be a little more bland, and that's what I'm afraid of.
Still bland is a relative term and if it looks anything like Top Notch's last sketch, it'll still be a great looking car.
6/3/12, 04:37 PM
#152
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Wow, there's a lot of love in here today
I'm a Limey (I'm gonna have to Google that in a minute to see exactly what that means! ) so take my comments for what they're worth..........
Sure, original Mustang design was influenced by contemporary European cars, some of them quite exotic (think Maserati 3500), but it offered them in a package available to the working man. For me, by the late sixties, that styling was morphed into what we now recognise as the classic Mustang style.....a style all of its own. OK, it grew a bit flabby and lost a bit of muscle in the early 70s, but it still looked like it mean business.
Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive.
Then came the Fox era. For me, these are the most bland Mustangs (in terms of looks) and that's possibly because, as a Brit, I see many styling cues from contemporary European Fords of the 80s, so it apprears less "American" to me. BUT, it's still a car I admire even if I'm so-so on the looks.
Then came the SN95. Still very Euro-inspired in the looks department, but this time they remembered to add the all important key styling elements.....tri-bar tail lamps, C-scoop etc. Many non-Mustang fans in the UK think they look "Japanese" though.
With the S197, we came full circle. The styling mimicked all those glamorous Stangs of the 60s........but now, ironically, there was no modern European equivilent (in terms of looks) so that's where, again as a Brit, the S197 is ALL AMERICAN to me.
Roll on to the present day and the Mustang finds itself in a world where the economy is in the toilet, fuel prices are higher than ever and, for me, most crucially, it probably has more competition now that it ever has in its past. It seems most players have a "pony car" of some description, from the BMW 3 series, Audi A5 to the Hyundai coupes and every manufacturer inbetween. All have their own style of dancing, but the tune is the same.
But, crucially for me, the S197 looks so different to all those competitors that it's actually not a competitor at all. That unique "American" look, is what turned me onto it....and why all the BMW, Audi and Korean coupes bore me. It's the best of the 60s with the dynamics to (just) keep up with the best from the rest of the world.
Still, I'm sure whatever the next-gen Mustang looks like, I'll love it. No doubt it will be a more capable car than the S197, but it may also just be a little more bland, and that's what I'm afraid of.
Still bland is a relative term and if it looks anything like Top Notch's last sketch, it'll still be a great looking car.
I'm a Limey (I'm gonna have to Google that in a minute to see exactly what that means!
) so take my comments for what they're worth..........Sure, original Mustang design was influenced by contemporary European cars, some of them quite exotic (think Maserati 3500), but it offered them in a package available to the working man. For me, by the late sixties, that styling was morphed into what we now recognise as the classic Mustang style.....a style all of its own. OK, it grew a bit flabby and lost a bit of muscle in the early 70s, but it still looked like it mean business.
Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive.
Then came the Fox era. For me, these are the most bland Mustangs (in terms of looks) and that's possibly because, as a Brit, I see many styling cues from contemporary European Fords of the 80s, so it apprears less "American" to me. BUT, it's still a car I admire even if I'm so-so on the looks.
Then came the SN95. Still very Euro-inspired in the looks department, but this time they remembered to add the all important key styling elements.....tri-bar tail lamps, C-scoop etc. Many non-Mustang fans in the UK think they look "Japanese" though.
With the S197, we came full circle. The styling mimicked all those glamorous Stangs of the 60s........but now, ironically, there was no modern European equivilent (in terms of looks) so that's where, again as a Brit, the S197 is ALL AMERICAN to me.
Roll on to the present day and the Mustang finds itself in a world where the economy is in the toilet, fuel prices are higher than ever and, for me, most crucially, it probably has more competition now that it ever has in its past. It seems most players have a "pony car" of some description, from the BMW 3 series, Audi A5 to the Hyundai coupes and every manufacturer inbetween. All have their own style of dancing, but the tune is the same.
But, crucially for me, the S197 looks so different to all those competitors that it's actually not a competitor at all. That unique "American" look, is what turned me onto it....and why all the BMW, Audi and Korean coupes bore me. It's the best of the 60s with the dynamics to (just) keep up with the best from the rest of the world.
Still, I'm sure whatever the next-gen Mustang looks like, I'll love it. No doubt it will be a more capable car than the S197, but it may also just be a little more bland, and that's what I'm afraid of.
Still bland is a relative term and if it looks anything like Top Notch's last sketch, it'll still be a great looking car.
Thanks Twin Turbo, once again I appreciate your perspective. Nice post.
6/3/12, 04:48 PM
#153
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Twin Turbo, thanks, I agree. Max5ive8, I think I agree with you also. I liked my '05 car, but I like this one just a little more (so far.) Dark Horse: Agreed!
6/3/12, 05:30 PM
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Wolfsburg,
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
6/3/12, 05:40 PM
#155
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But, crucially for me, the S197 looks so different to all those competitors that it's actually not a competitor at all. That unique "American" look, is what turned me onto it....and why all the BMW, Audi and Korean coupes bore me. It's the best of the 60s with the dynamics to (just) keep up with the best from the rest of the world.
But I could really care less where the design influences come from, as long as it looks cool and respects the heritage of what the Mustang has become. I just want it to be unique and evil looking and not just a latecomer to the bland, over-rounded, Eclipse/G37/Accord Coupe/Genesis Coupe look.
And lets not forget the vast differences in European designs. Lots of really cool supercars to draw influence from. But no matter what we think, the design is already pretty much done by now. All we can do is wait and see.
6/3/12, 08:02 PM
#156
Cobra Member
Twin Turbo said: "Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive."
But, honestly, I walked out of the Ford showroom, after looking at the II and went to the Mercury dealer where I purchased the first of three Capri's. The II just never looked "right" from day one, whereas the Capri flowed from end to end.
I think Ford knows where it's bread is buttered and will not screw up the next gen, but, with that said, be ready for drastic change as it has to appeal to a new generation of buyers, all over the world. My only hope is they don't design the essence of Mustang out of it. By that I mean, the car is immediately recognizable, and does need it's name plastered all over the body work, as people know it is a Mustang, without asking.
But, honestly, I walked out of the Ford showroom, after looking at the II and went to the Mercury dealer where I purchased the first of three Capri's. The II just never looked "right" from day one, whereas the Capri flowed from end to end.
I think Ford knows where it's bread is buttered and will not screw up the next gen, but, with that said, be ready for drastic change as it has to appeal to a new generation of buyers, all over the world. My only hope is they don't design the essence of Mustang out of it. By that I mean, the car is immediately recognizable, and does need it's name plastered all over the body work, as people know it is a Mustang, without asking.
6/3/12, 08:16 PM
#157
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Wolfsburg,
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
MarkAmerica, thank you for your service to our country! I came very close to joining the Air Force back in the early 1980's but circumstances out of my control prevented it. I was in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1994 (briefly in Italy also) so I know a little about Europe myself.
----------------------------------------------
While I'm on the subject.....Twin Turbo, I thank you and your country for everything the UK has done for the USA over the years. One day I hope to visit Britain.
6/3/12, 09:54 PM
#159
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Wolfsburg,
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
Let me step into the confessional a moment. First, in broad terms, I think you're right that there was a distinct Euro influence in the Mustang from its outset. I wasn't always a Texan, though I got here as quick as I was able. I was raised in an environment that told me "merrikans" as you put it were bad, everything Euro was good, and all those people South or West of the New York state lines were hicks, more or less. Only the "sophisticated people" understood all the advantages of European thinking, style, and so forth.
As a youngster, I accepted that. (After all, how the heck would I know differently?) I saw my father wince more than once at that concept, but he kept his lips sealed and so I didn't learn any better until I was a young fellow in the Army. After serving five years in Europe, and managing to see much of the continent, and driving in parts of it extensively, I recognized some cultural differences that were manifest in the design of my Mustang(s).
For instance, while both my 88 and 89 shared the aero-headlights, new in 87 to the line, I looked around and noticed that many European Fords had the same thing. I also noted that the Euro-built cars handled curves better but when I would compare notes with some of my German counterparts, the money they were laying down for cars was, well, stupendous, at a given performance point. There were also things I could readily do to upgrade the handling and braking of my car(as I quickly learned on the autobahn that Fred Flintstone's car had roughly equivalent brakes.) What I could do that the vast majority of them could not in my extensive 23yo indescretion was to go extraordinarily fast for a sticker price of just a few dollars under $16k.
Being a 23yo, I was much more fearless than my twice-as-old current self, and so I did all kinds of things to try to make the car go faster. I spent a good deal of time reading and I could just about quote to you the specs on the various parts available in the JBittle American catalog, and the Saleen catalog, the Ford Motorsports catalog, and Steeda was coming on strong, and so on and so forth. Back home, a whole generation of folk were turning out a large number of parts for the model, and then not yet a father, I was able to spend an inordinate amount of my GI paycheck on parts.
Even with everything I did to the car, I knew it would never handle quite like the Euro cars, but I was going faster than many of them at a much lower price point, even with my mods. I got beat (badly) by a guy in a really hot Porsche one day, but he wasn't familiar with my car, and we pulled over to compare notes, me doing my best attempt at German, and he his best English(and his was the better, to be sure.) He asked me what my car cost as he inspected the engine bay, and when I told him, his jaw fell open. He shook his head, and managed: "They would never let Germans have a car like this for that money." (Without defining who "they" had been.)
I guess my point to you is that as I gave respect to the way some of their better cars performed, they had a certain admiration for the red car named for a wild horse because its acceleration and top speed were so great for so little money. After all, a GI could afford one(barely.)
What all of it taught me was that there is a certain fascination with all things European in some quarters that I find obnoxious because it fairly sneers at all things American, but that it's not universal even in Europe. Nevertheless, my hackles raise a bit when the "European influence" business begins, and now you might understand a bit better why that is the case.
Then I was stationed in Texas, and that place that I had been taught was the land of rednecks, devils, and gun-toting, bible-thumping morons turned out to be quite unlike the portrayal with which I had been presented, and that its people were nothing like they'd been billed, I stymied them all, and I stayed even after I got out of the service. One relative disapprovingly remarked: "Figures! He always was a bit of a cowboy."
Dang straight.
I want to apologize if I detected in your words a meaning that was not there, or that had not been intended. After four years of hearing my country bashed from the top, from outside, and from the bottom, I suppose that I've become hypersensitive. I'll do my best to keep it in check.
Sorry for the trouble.
Mark
6/3/12, 10:03 PM
#160
Shelby GT350 Member
Twin Turbo said: "Then came the II. Back to the pony car roots of a simple car aimed at a more fuel concious audience. Less muscle, more efficiency. It kept the name alive."
But, honestly, I walked out of the Ford showroom, after looking at the II and went to the Mercury dealer where I purchased the first of three Capri's. The II just never looked "right" from day one, whereas the Capri flowed from end to end.
But, honestly, I walked out of the Ford showroom, after looking at the II and went to the Mercury dealer where I purchased the first of three Capri's. The II just never looked "right" from day one, whereas the Capri flowed from end to end.
Last edited by watchdevil; 6/3/12 at 10:11 PM.