Watts Link
10/29/10, 10:39 AM
#41
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I still don't see a definitive answer about if the Watts link should or shouldn't be added. I wanted to use one on another vehicle once but hadn't looked since. The Watts link makes sense to me but I am just not gathering enough information to be motivated to pay. It's tough because I know it is a good part but if someone like Sam isn't using one, it's hard to justify the cost. Ya know?
I can't think of anyone, ANYONE who's installed one and thinks the PHB is in any way better (except on the cost side). How can it be? You are better restaining a lot of mass from moving around.
I have one on my Camaro. I had one on my 2007 (sold the car). I will have one on my 2011 when I switch competition classes, as I can't run one in the class I run currently. When it's legal for me to run, you bet I'll have one back on the '11.
Last edited by sam strano; 10/29/10 at 11:03 AM.
10/29/10, 06:30 PM
#42
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I strongly disagree with that statement, and think if you talk to folks that have run the, they will as well almost to a person. The car doesn't know where it's being driven and a Watts link corrects the geometry changes that happen actively with a panhard bar, on the street or not.
I sell a lot of Watts links, and I've never had someone tell me "eh, it's not any better".
I sell a lot of Watts links, and I've never had someone tell me "eh, it's not any better".
I didn't say it wasn't better. My statement has to do with the cost factor. A Watts Link will run you $600 and up depending on which one you get plus install cost . I can do a lot of other mods to my car for that money. On my 07 GT I passed on the Watts Link and did upper/lower LCA's and adjustable 3rd link. With the rest of my suspension mods my car handled ten times better than stock and was plenty for my driving style.
The Watts Link is definitely the better set up but unless you track or drive your car really hard the money can be better spent else where.
11/1/10, 10:27 AM
#43
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I didn't say it wasn't better. My statement has to do with the cost factor. A Watts Link will run you $600 and up depending on which one you get plus install cost . I can do a lot of other mods to my car for that money. On my 07 GT I passed on the Watts Link and did upper/lower LCA's and adjustable 3rd link. With the rest of my suspension mods my car handled ten times better than stock and was plenty for my driving style.
The Watts Link is definitely the better set up but unless you track or drive your car really hard the money can be better spent else where.
The Watts Link is definitely the better set up but unless you track or drive your car really hard the money can be better spent else where.
You can do a lot of other mods for that money... but are they mods that help what you are trying to fix? Sure you could spend that money on say, brakes--but if the issue you are after is the rear end moving around and such then spending that money on brakes won't help. I get it, you are saying that if you do control arms and a PHB that the result is a lot less and pretty much as good. Again, I respectfully disagree because any PHB, stock or not, is subject to the same geometry change. And personally, the first time I ran a Watts link I was shocked the change. And for years I felt that PHB's were fine, I had my mind changed almost immediately.
11/12/10, 09:53 AM
#47
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Very similar in function....
Steeda is made of Chrome-Moly round tube, Fays2 is Mild Steel, square tube. The Steeda is the more quiet of the two because the arms use urethane bushings where the Fays2 uses rod-ends (though high quality, usually Aurora's which minimize rattling) so there can be some rod-end noise but most find it to not be an issue. I had no issue on my Mustang or Camaro units.
Fays2 comes in Red or Black (though Black isn't always in stock). Steeda are gray. Steeda is a little quicker to install as the leveling of the arms is a bit easier--that might be an hour difference at the outside... And of course, price. Fays2 $650 shipped (though the free shipping is a limited time thing that we're coming to the end of), Steeda is $995.
Steeda is made of Chrome-Moly round tube, Fays2 is Mild Steel, square tube. The Steeda is the more quiet of the two because the arms use urethane bushings where the Fays2 uses rod-ends (though high quality, usually Aurora's which minimize rattling) so there can be some rod-end noise but most find it to not be an issue. I had no issue on my Mustang or Camaro units.
Fays2 comes in Red or Black (though Black isn't always in stock). Steeda are gray. Steeda is a little quicker to install as the leveling of the arms is a bit easier--that might be an hour difference at the outside... And of course, price. Fays2 $650 shipped (though the free shipping is a limited time thing that we're coming to the end of), Steeda is $995.
11/12/10, 10:56 AM
#49
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Very similar in function....
Steeda is made of Chrome-Moly round tube, Fays2 is Mild Steel, square tube. The Steeda is the more quiet of the two because the arms use urethane bushings where the Fays2 uses rod-ends (though high quality, usually Aurora's which minimize rattling) so there can be some rod-end noise but most find it to not be an issue. I had no issue on my Mustang or Camaro units.
Fays2 comes in Red or Black (though Black isn't always in stock). Steeda are gray. Steeda is a little quicker to install as the leveling of the arms is a bit easier--that might be an hour difference at the outside... And of course, price. Fays2 $650 shipped (though the free shipping is a limited time thing that we're coming to the end of), Steeda is $995.
Steeda is made of Chrome-Moly round tube, Fays2 is Mild Steel, square tube. The Steeda is the more quiet of the two because the arms use urethane bushings where the Fays2 uses rod-ends (though high quality, usually Aurora's which minimize rattling) so there can be some rod-end noise but most find it to not be an issue. I had no issue on my Mustang or Camaro units.
Fays2 comes in Red or Black (though Black isn't always in stock). Steeda are gray. Steeda is a little quicker to install as the leveling of the arms is a bit easier--that might be an hour difference at the outside... And of course, price. Fays2 $650 shipped (though the free shipping is a limited time thing that we're coming to the end of), Steeda is $995.
I think I'm going to be giving you a call soon. It's time I address my 2011's suspension; what a nice Christmas present(s) to myself!
By the way, do you know if companies like Koni, Steeda, et al, will be making 2011 Mustang-specific components so one will no longer need to cannibalize a 2005-10 Mustang's strut mounts?
11/12/10, 11:08 AM
#50
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My Mustang plans are up in they air for next year. I had a Fays2 on my 2007, I have one on my 2001 Camaro. If I change classes with the car, I will most likely go back to a Fays2 for the value of it.
Fays2 will work with a the low-profile diff cover, but nothing thicker. I believe the same is true of the Steeda unit. Any I've put on were with stock covers so I cannot say conclusively.
Sooner or late there will be 2011 specific front dampers from Koni. But they are a long way off (it's hard enough to get them to keep up with the current stock). The fitment solution is not hard and not expensive for the 2011's to use the the older struts. But Koni is planning on a specific unit. I bet it'll be a year until we see it. And functionally it won't work any differently.
CM should trim some weight in theory, but the shipping weight (the only thing I can go off of without having them both to weigh right now) is heavier for the Steeda unit by quite a bit. The box is more involved and it's not packages as efficiently as the Fays2 so there some weight there that doesn't really go to the part itself. In actuality, the weights are very similar to each other based on having held both in my hands at various times. Remember CM isn't lighter on it's own, it's only lighter if you use thinner tubing because CM has more strength. From what I've seen/felt I think the weight is a wash.
Fays2 will work with a the low-profile diff cover, but nothing thicker. I believe the same is true of the Steeda unit. Any I've put on were with stock covers so I cannot say conclusively.
Sooner or late there will be 2011 specific front dampers from Koni. But they are a long way off (it's hard enough to get them to keep up with the current stock). The fitment solution is not hard and not expensive for the 2011's to use the the older struts. But Koni is planning on a specific unit. I bet it'll be a year until we see it. And functionally it won't work any differently.
CM should trim some weight in theory, but the shipping weight (the only thing I can go off of without having them both to weigh right now) is heavier for the Steeda unit by quite a bit. The box is more involved and it's not packages as efficiently as the Fays2 so there some weight there that doesn't really go to the part itself. In actuality, the weights are very similar to each other based on having held both in my hands at various times. Remember CM isn't lighter on it's own, it's only lighter if you use thinner tubing because CM has more strength. From what I've seen/felt I think the weight is a wash.
11/17/10, 03:13 AM
#51
My Mustang plans are up in they air for next year. I had a Fays2 on my 2007, I have one on my 2001 Camaro. If I change classes with the car, I will most likely go back to a Fays2 for the value of it.
Fays2 will work with a the low-profile diff cover, but nothing thicker. I believe the same is true of the Steeda unit. Any I've put on were with stock covers so I cannot say conclusively.
Sooner or late there will be 2011 specific front dampers from Koni. But they are a long way off (it's hard enough to get them to keep up with the current stock). The fitment solution is not hard and not expensive for the 2011's to use the the older struts. But Koni is planning on a specific unit. I bet it'll be a year until we see it. And functionally it won't work any differently.
CM should trim some weight in theory, but the shipping weight (the only thing I can go off of without having them both to weigh right now) is heavier for the Steeda unit by quite a bit. The box is more involved and it's not packages as efficiently as the Fays2 so there some weight there that doesn't really go to the part itself. In actuality, the weights are very similar to each other based on having held both in my hands at various times. Remember CM isn't lighter on it's own, it's only lighter if you use thinner tubing because CM has more strength. From what I've seen/felt I think the weight is a wash.
Fays2 will work with a the low-profile diff cover, but nothing thicker. I believe the same is true of the Steeda unit. Any I've put on were with stock covers so I cannot say conclusively.
Sooner or late there will be 2011 specific front dampers from Koni. But they are a long way off (it's hard enough to get them to keep up with the current stock). The fitment solution is not hard and not expensive for the 2011's to use the the older struts. But Koni is planning on a specific unit. I bet it'll be a year until we see it. And functionally it won't work any differently.
CM should trim some weight in theory, but the shipping weight (the only thing I can go off of without having them both to weigh right now) is heavier for the Steeda unit by quite a bit. The box is more involved and it's not packages as efficiently as the Fays2 so there some weight there that doesn't really go to the part itself. In actuality, the weights are very similar to each other based on having held both in my hands at various times. Remember CM isn't lighter on it's own, it's only lighter if you use thinner tubing because CM has more strength. From what I've seen/felt I think the weight is a wash.
11/17/10, 10:04 AM
#53
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Trick question... Well, tricky to answer anyway.
First, I have not yet committed to this project for next year (it's a long winter).
The plan is (and this can change as I run and test the car on different tires, etc):
Use my AST dampers (have Koni's as well as backups) with the front swapped back to coil-over and weight jackers so I can play around with spring rates and ride heights. However, I will be starting with rates very similar to what *some* lowering springs use. I'm not actually adverse to running a good lowering spring only... one difference with me vs. a lot of folks is I'm in actual competition and that sometimes means dotting i's and crossing t's with little details that frankly just don't matter on a street car, or a car that isn't competing in a sport where winning and losing can come down to .001 of a second.
I will be running my Strano Adjustable/Hollow swaybar set. Some sort of camber plate that's TBD at this time. A Fays2 Watts link. Change the limited slip to something better (also TBD, thinking about options and seeing if anything new shows up for next year as there is a new one for corner carving but it's just started development). I would swap the front rotors to two-piece units to save weight. Go to 18x10" wheels to start (I have some) then see where I have room and change my Forgelines over to what I think will fit reasonably well, maybe a 10.5". Race seats, etc....
First, I have not yet committed to this project for next year (it's a long winter).
The plan is (and this can change as I run and test the car on different tires, etc):
Use my AST dampers (have Koni's as well as backups) with the front swapped back to coil-over and weight jackers so I can play around with spring rates and ride heights. However, I will be starting with rates very similar to what *some* lowering springs use. I'm not actually adverse to running a good lowering spring only... one difference with me vs. a lot of folks is I'm in actual competition and that sometimes means dotting i's and crossing t's with little details that frankly just don't matter on a street car, or a car that isn't competing in a sport where winning and losing can come down to .001 of a second.
I will be running my Strano Adjustable/Hollow swaybar set. Some sort of camber plate that's TBD at this time. A Fays2 Watts link. Change the limited slip to something better (also TBD, thinking about options and seeing if anything new shows up for next year as there is a new one for corner carving but it's just started development). I would swap the front rotors to two-piece units to save weight. Go to 18x10" wheels to start (I have some) then see where I have room and change my Forgelines over to what I think will fit reasonably well, maybe a 10.5". Race seats, etc....
11/17/10, 10:06 AM
#54
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11/19/10, 03:02 PM
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Stay tuned... I think Modshack will be posting something soon. He just called me and seemed to be quite pleased. He said he felt the difference before he left his driveway, he must have a fun driveway!
He said he felt the difference before he left his driveway, he must have a fun driveway!
11/19/10, 03:48 PM
#56
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Hi Sam! Good talking to you earlier. I'll do a full review after I've had a chance to throw the car around a bit tomorrow, but yeah...I noticed the change immediately and my driveway is just flat with the normal dip at the end! As soon as I turned out of it and the rear articulated a bit I felt the difference. Cruised around the neighborhood a bit hitting road irregularities, and pushing it through some Cul-de-sacs etc. and the difference in feel is QUITE noticeable. I was actually quite amazed at the immediate difference in feel. Install took about 3 hours and was a modest PITA. I have a lift, so all that is a bit easier. I'll post up some pics too. Major thumbs up on this mod for anyone who puts any value on good handling. More tomorrow..
11/20/10, 11:46 AM
#57
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OK Guys, here's some impressions...
Let's just say up front that I am impressed with the improvements. Just brainstorming here are my thoughts on why.
A panhard equipped car locates the axle at the end of a long pivot. The movement of the suspension scribes an arc around the fixed chassis side pivot point of the Panhard bar. This causes the Axle to move left and right as the suspension moves through its travel. Based on my axle shift of 1/4-3/8ths of an inch with a one inch drop (FRPP "P" springs), one could surmise that the axle goes through a 1/2 to 3/4" movement left and right as the car moves on the suspension. This assumes a 2" suspension travel up and down. In reality it could be more. This results in chassis movement above the axle and tire sidewall squirm as the axle moves side to side and the suspension moves up and down. That, and the fact that the Panhard runs from the drivers side chassis to the passengers side axle mount, the handling characteristics are different when turning left and right. Watch this video to get a better idea of how much the car is moving over the axle. This view from a Mustang track car...Observe the twitchiness of the other Mustangs he passes: http://www.streetfire.net/video/bill...oni_702856.htm
A watts link eliminates ALL of the side to side action. The axle pivot point is now centered with no arc to move through. It strictly moves up and down now controlled by the Watts link arms and central pivot point. Tire squirm and any nervousness you feel as the suspension articulates is effectively eliminated. You can also effectively eliminate the need for Sway bar improvements/changes as the roll center can be adjusted at the Watts link. You can tune the cars reactions much as you would with adjustable anti roll bars. I've got mine set pretty low now and the car corners flat as can be. I'll probably raise it a notch as I get more comfortable with the changes and what effects it has on chassis dynamics.
What does this do for you, you ask? It makes the car much more stable. "Planted" is the term thrown about. Consistent handling characteristics when turning right AND left are also very noticeable. The car generally feels more solid. Your feel for whats happening at the back end is enhanced and It feels as if the tires are taking on a smoother set/grip to the road. Likely they are as you've eliminated the sidewall squirm. For those who place a value on handling this is a "must do".
Net weight of the assembly is about 29 lbs. Since I saved 24lbs with my muffler swap to Basanni's the car's pretty even from a weight perspective.
I've had 57 cars. Only a few of them have had solid axles, so the Mustang is new to me (my first). Playing with suspensions and making them work for good Day to day driveablity is something I've done on most of them. This is a very effective (and satisfying) addition to the solid axle S197 chassis. Three thumbs up from the Modshack!...
My install pics can be viewed in the Watts Link album here. Figure 3 hours to install if you have tools and skilz! Jim at Fays2 provides a very complete and comprehensive installation booklet.
http://public.fotki.com/ttschwing/m-...ts-link-fays2/
Since originally writing this I've put another 100 or so miles on the car and continue to be very impressed with the changes. The new stability in transient conditions makes the car far more predictable and confidence inspiring. Can't wait to get out to the mountains to exercise it more!
Let's just say up front that I am impressed with the improvements. Just brainstorming here are my thoughts on why.
A panhard equipped car locates the axle at the end of a long pivot. The movement of the suspension scribes an arc around the fixed chassis side pivot point of the Panhard bar. This causes the Axle to move left and right as the suspension moves through its travel. Based on my axle shift of 1/4-3/8ths of an inch with a one inch drop (FRPP "P" springs), one could surmise that the axle goes through a 1/2 to 3/4" movement left and right as the car moves on the suspension. This assumes a 2" suspension travel up and down. In reality it could be more. This results in chassis movement above the axle and tire sidewall squirm as the axle moves side to side and the suspension moves up and down. That, and the fact that the Panhard runs from the drivers side chassis to the passengers side axle mount, the handling characteristics are different when turning left and right. Watch this video to get a better idea of how much the car is moving over the axle. This view from a Mustang track car...Observe the twitchiness of the other Mustangs he passes: http://www.streetfire.net/video/bill...oni_702856.htm
A watts link eliminates ALL of the side to side action. The axle pivot point is now centered with no arc to move through. It strictly moves up and down now controlled by the Watts link arms and central pivot point. Tire squirm and any nervousness you feel as the suspension articulates is effectively eliminated. You can also effectively eliminate the need for Sway bar improvements/changes as the roll center can be adjusted at the Watts link. You can tune the cars reactions much as you would with adjustable anti roll bars. I've got mine set pretty low now and the car corners flat as can be. I'll probably raise it a notch as I get more comfortable with the changes and what effects it has on chassis dynamics.
What does this do for you, you ask? It makes the car much more stable. "Planted" is the term thrown about. Consistent handling characteristics when turning right AND left are also very noticeable. The car generally feels more solid. Your feel for whats happening at the back end is enhanced and It feels as if the tires are taking on a smoother set/grip to the road. Likely they are as you've eliminated the sidewall squirm. For those who place a value on handling this is a "must do".
Net weight of the assembly is about 29 lbs. Since I saved 24lbs with my muffler swap to Basanni's the car's pretty even from a weight perspective.
I've had 57 cars. Only a few of them have had solid axles, so the Mustang is new to me (my first). Playing with suspensions and making them work for good Day to day driveablity is something I've done on most of them. This is a very effective (and satisfying) addition to the solid axle S197 chassis. Three thumbs up from the Modshack!...
My install pics can be viewed in the Watts Link album here. Figure 3 hours to install if you have tools and skilz! Jim at Fays2 provides a very complete and comprehensive installation booklet.
http://public.fotki.com/ttschwing/m-...ts-link-fays2/
Since originally writing this I've put another 100 or so miles on the car and continue to be very impressed with the changes. The new stability in transient conditions makes the car far more predictable and confidence inspiring. Can't wait to get out to the mountains to exercise it more!
Last edited by Modshack; 11/22/10 at 10:22 AM.
11/21/10, 08:00 AM
#59
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None noticed in my drive time yesterday. I was particularly listening as someone else had mentioned that possibility. The differential is no longer isolated by the Poly Panhard bar bushings, being replaced instead by a series of Spherical Heim joints. There is probably some additional noise/vibration transmission because of this, but do to the complexity of the linkage a great deal of that is likely damped. I also have the rear of my car sound deadened Pics: http://public.fotki.com/ttschwing/m-...und-deadening/
Bottom line is it's almost undetectable on my car..
Bottom line is it's almost undetectable on my car..
11/21/10, 11:01 AM
#60
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Many thanks to all that responded to my inital post, and a special thanks to Sam and Modshack for their knowledge and insight. After reading this thread several times I think I will go with the Steeda unit. I prefer not to mess with the differential especially since I may not be able to get the correct oil to go back in it. I live in a mountainous region therefor it stands the reason I would like the car to handle at it's best and carve a corner with confidence. I think the Watts Link will do that for me along with the proper springs, bars, and dampners. Having one of the few American cars in the region sports or otherwise, I need to be on top of my game and represent. It's a matter of pride.