cdynaco

Sounds good. But no offense friend, there's no lope there. Sounds like a mild cam but zero valve overlap.

This one is a bit better - but even it lacks the rythmic ba-dum ba-dum ba-dum like back in the day late 60's early 70's.

cdynaco

That's a negative ghost rider. Valve overlap to create the "5th cycle" where the exhaust gases scavenge/suck fresh A/F mix into the cylinder - whether it be by cam grind (OHV/push rod), fixed cam sprocket adjustment (DOHC), or ECU controlled hydraulic action on DOHC (TiVCT) - only increases HP & torque at higher rpm's. Valve overlap has a negative effect on HP & torque at lower rpm's and especially at idle (not to mention emissions).

Granted a "ghost cam" tune may include changes in other parameters that can improve performance, but the tweaks to produce a lope at idle do not.

You don't get it. It wasn't to look all bad at idle or in traffic. It was about what happened at peak RPM. That's why you put a cam in that had valve overlap. But since there wasn't variable cam timing then, the drawback was the overlap that produced better HP & torque at high RPM, produced lousy performance at idle and launch.

As for the Boss' Track key, I would presume they dial in even more valve overlap at high RPM. But since even TiVCT has limitations in just how far they can move the intake cams from the exhaust cams throughout the RPM band, it therefore produces a lope at idle due to the extreme overlap.

Ya'll need to go to cam school. I'm self taught from my DOHC Lotus. I bought adjustable cam sprockets with the improved cams and it came with this dial you would bolt on the end of the cam. It gave you degree by degree adjustment for overlap, you locked down the sprockets, and it definitely improved high RPM performance.

11SHELBYGT500

I never saw them run, they would just cruise around. Trust me, the guys that I knew did it just to look mean.

MARZ

Don't misconstrue my comment to think I'm equating the cam sound to performance as I never once claimed the changes made to produce said noise do anything for performance. What I meant is the various ghost cam tunes essentially only affect what's going on at idle; when you drive the car, it's really no different than any other performance tune on the market (other than the differences between each, respective company's tune).

Livernois' idle lope tune:

https://themustangsource.com/f800/li...e-tune-493484/

"[No loss in power] from regular 93 octane tune to 93 octane tune with idle lope"

Jon Lund's "ghost cam" tune:

https://themustangsource.com/f800/5-...s-tune-493728/

425 rwhp / 427 rwtq with only JLT cold air, offroad X-pipe, axleback and "ghost cam" tune.

As you can see, there are, in fact, performance gains to be had from the various "ghost cam" tunes out there because, like I said, other than the noise they make at idle, they're virtually no different than any other performance tune on the market. That's what I meant, Ghost Rider.

cdynaco

lol I followed you.

That's why I added:

But low end performance will be reduced even with the performance aspect of their tunes, because the only way to get a lope at idle is to have overlap at idle.

2011GB/CS

Ford, asked Lund and Bama to politely quit the Ghost Tunes, they (Ford) wanted it to be exclusivley there idea with the Boss and the Track Key.

I believe i was one of the last ones to recieve the much controvercial Ghost Cam Tune. It is on Youtube somewhere.

MARZ

I don't know how you could quantify or "prove," if you will, that A) the car does, in fact, lose performance immediately off-idle and B) how much performance is lost due to the overlap? From what I can tell, in comparing dyno sheets and going on what several tuners have stated, there is little-to-no loss in performance as soon as you hit the loud pedal. Of course, the latter is anecdotal, and in regards to the former, every dyno will read something different (different dyno, different day, different tune, different gas), so I guess I'll just take your word for it.

blackgt87

ujellybro

False.

You can still buy that ghost cam tune today, as well as other ones.

VTXFrank

Yes, you sure can.

blackgt87

I was actually just told by livernois that the reason they no longer offer the cammed tune is because it made their cars smoke on decel. And they are not sure how that will affect the car in the long term, so they don't offer them anymore.

That's the first I have heard of that.

VTXFrank

If you watch my video linked in my sig line, I'm running the Lund Cammed tune. Jon told me the only downside is the crappy gas mileage from the rich idle and the spark plugs may need replacing if you run the tune for a straight 15k miles.

You will see no smoking from my car on decel in the video. Well, there is still smoke coming off the tires.....

blackgt87

Thats good yours doesn't do it. Maybe something to keep an eye out for if it develops over time.

cdynaco

That's why I said I "presume". So the lope from the Boss Track Key is just a gimmick like the others?

Explain.

blackgt87

Correct the lope with the trackey is a gimmick/cool sound just like any other lope tune.

There is plenty of adjustment in the TiVCT for the idle to return to normal even if you open it way up on the top end. Especially from Fords persepective because they had to limit the SCT software's range of motion with respect to the cam tuning because people could move them so far there would be piston to valve contact. So the range that SCT tuners can move the cams is not the full range available, Ford could move them further.

They made it sound that way at idle because people think its cool/sounds like a race car. Both are true.

Anybody who hates on lopey idle tunes is jealous their car can't do it.

cdynaco

Don't know how to quantify it but since the opening of the intake valve "overlaps" the closing of the exhaust valve, you in essence have a "leak" in the cylinder, and have lowered compression - without enough scavenging at idle and lower RPM's to counter the leak. This is also why the emissions are worse because of unburned fuel.

Whereas at higher RPM in the power band, the exhaust gases are moving so fast they acutally improve performance by (the still open exhaust valve) scavenging/sucking fresh A/F mix from the (simultaneous slightly open) intake valve during overlap faster than occurs without valve overlap.

cdynaco

Thanx. That's what I was concerned about was valve to valve or valve to piston interference.

Agreed.

MARZ

I get what you're saying and I understand the theory behind how cams work in relation to valves, etc... again, in comparing several dyno sheets, talking to tuners and those who've run / are running idle lope tunes alike, there is no drop-off in terms of horsepower and torque production immediately off-idle.

cdynaco

I looked up those links and didn't seen any dyno comparisons. Plus they have applied other performance tweaks to the tune before their dyno run.

I would guess they would have to do an apples to apples comparison between a stock tune and their tune with overlap/cam effect only - no other performance tweaks.

One thing I don't know (among jillions), are dyno's that accurate comparing idle/low RPM HP & torque? And at what RPM do they let the ECU return the cams to non-overlap condition (until higher RPM's) - 1.5k? 2k? 1.2k?

I know back in my dirt bike days I had a compression release for extra braking. There is no way a leaking cylinder (compression release open) was anywhere close to a completely closed cylinder - at idle and take off. Same with my monster Husky chainsaw - it has a release for starting and will not idle with it open. So its not just the obvious mechanical particulars, its the practical application also.

MARZ

Sorry, those links were meant only to illustrate the fact that lopey idle tunes are, in fact, performance tunes -- the only difference is the sound made at idle. You're going to have to do your own comparison research as there are a myriad of dyno graphs out there from tuned 5.0's. In regards to the "performance tweaks" you mention, would a regular, non-lopey-idle performance Lund tune, for example, not apply those same tweaks (added timing, fuel, etc)?

According to Stinger1982, Livernois did just that, thus the reason for me quoting his post, "[No loss in power] from regular 93 octane tune to 93 octane tune with idle lope." Whether that alone is enough to satisfy your apples-to-apples comparison, I'll let you make the call.

I'm just thinking out loud here, because I'm not sure, but would it be possible for a tuner to write an idle lope tune where any input from the accelerator pedal immediately returns the ECU and all the parameters it controls back to "stock" or, in this case, "regular" tuned?

Again, we're in agreeance.

cdynaco

Well I remember that - but I assumed it meant there was no diff at peak HP/torque between a non ghost cam performance tune and a ghost cam performance tune.

I was thinking that too. Immediately phases back to "normal".