Hello Everyone,

This is my first post as I am a new member. I am going to try and be as detailed as I can be with the specific problem I am having.
So I own a bone stock 2006 4.6L 3v Mustang GT with just over 165,000 miles on it. Last week I was driving home from work and all of a sudden the engine started acting all funny and I get an engine code. Get it home, P0016. I pull the valve covers and sure enough, timing chain skipped a tooth and the passenger side guide broke into a ton of pieces. I went and bought a new timing chain set, some new plugs, and VCT Solenoids.



So when I open the Valve Covers, there was a lot of Sludge in with the Cams and Rocker arms. (A lot to me, overall, it could have been MUCH worse). So I spent a bunch of time picking at it and cleaning up as much as possible without being too abrasive to the cams.
So anyways, I do the repair and take it out on a few test drives. First couple were nice and gentle. The last test drive, I do some hard pulls on it and it feels perfect. Feels like I actually gained some additional power back on the repair.
I wake up in the morning for work. Starts up perfect. Put it in reverse, still fine. I drive forward probably about 300 yards to the stop sign,, and as im braking, the car starts this aggressive shudder. Like I figured something internally was grinding. definite oh **** moment. Even the lights start to flicker. I make it back home and pull the engine codes. P0018 and P0022. There was a 3rd code for an O2 sensor but I can't remember what it was. The codes are related to the VCT solenoids, I know that much. So I clear the codes and unplug the battery and then take it for another test drive. It works perfect again. So this morning, I go to drive to work, and it starts doing it all over again. So I put it in park and start revving the engine while at the light to keep it going. I get onto the main road and accelerate pretty well up to the next stop light, and the problem is gone. This time no engine light. I get out of work tonight, so it had been sitting about 10 hours, and it tries to do it to me again, this time I was letting it sit and warm up for about 3-5 minutes. Get onto the main road, accelerate through the problem again, make it to a light and the problem disappears.
now it is cold-ish where I live currently in the northern half of Illinois. We have been getting some minor snow the last couple days. But I doubt its cold enough to truly create a problem
I did double check all sensor and electrical connections to make sure nothing was loose.

Has anyone else encountered this problem or maybe have some ideas? I could really use some help on this.

 

Welcome to the forums!

I am unsure as to why you'd have a LOT of sludge in there, as you say. Properly timed oil changes (3000 in heavy use conditions, 5000 otherwise), cooling system is ok, and that really shouldn't happen. An investigation into that is warranted. For sure, the next couple of oil changes should be Mobil 1 20w50 5w20 (Edit: WHAT the entire heck was I even thinking I don't know... fixed) and probably at 500 miles each, to try to desludge it, if not actually doing an oil system service with something like BG.

As you probably have read elsewhere, these codes are sayin' the Left/Driver's side bank is not happy. I'd suspect that the solenoid has just been bad out of the box. That does happen. Just going to have to get another one and try it. However, seeing that you didn't replace the sprockets with new ones (which are *highly* recommended when doing the timing at all) I'm suspecting you might have reused the sprocket bolt too. And that's a pretty bad no-no. Those bolts are unique and torque to yield. If you did reuse them, well... you might want to consider taking them both out and putting in brand new ones and torqueing them down correctly. They're that important. If you did get new bolts, then disregard. (More fussiness, sorry.)

Beyond that, you may have a bad follower or adjuster. But that's probably not it. The cam itself is probably also not it, nor the head. If the car is overall running good, the engine and valves are probably just peachy.

Grats on your overall success in rebuilding that engine timing! Minorish bump, I'm thinkin'. Very much leaning towards the solenoid overall.

Again, welcome, and hope that helps! Let us know!

 

Thanks for the welcome and feedback! So I bought a Melling timing kit. It came with the new bottom sprocket, but not the top Cam Phasers. (I was at the end of my budget and didn't want to cheapen out on the chain itself...) Now I know the Cam Phaser bolts are a 1 time use only item, so I did not touch them while doing the timing. I assume the previous owners must not have been the kindest to the vehicle with oil change intervals myself. Ive only had it for about 5,000 miles and technically with this repair, I've now done 2 oil changes. I was actually going to change the oil in about 30-50 miles and put a fresh oil in again after all the sludge I had picked at. (I am hoping it loosens the sludge up and it can collect below)

New add to diagnosing the shuddering problem as well is that this morning I finally let it warm up for at least 10 minutes vs the 2-3 minutes i did the day prior and with the needle not buried on the cold side for the temp gauge inside the car, the car ran fine. So as well as a potentially bad sensor, I think there is something to do with the cold as well...
Question, putting such a heavy weight oil in my engine won't harm it? I've heard stories of people permanently switching to 5w30 because of the Cam Phasers and that it extended the life of those over the 5w20. Also, I have been recommended seafood to help break everything down. Thoughts?

 

Yes, feed it some seafood! That will make it feel better. Sorry, I know you meant "seafoam" but I couldn't resist.

Full disclosure, I don't really know what I am talking about, houtex has been through all of this and I have not . . . but just thinkin' . . .

It might have something to do with the sludge and the variable cam timing; which I believe is activated with oil pressure. So seafoam or BG or something to desludge it might be the ticket.

I think I would stick with 5W20 oil for now, probably Mobil 1 or another good synthetic, in hopes of helping with the desludging. After you get it sorted you could switch to 5W30 for longer term use.

 

GAH.

Ok, I totally meant 5w20. Not 20w50. What the entire heck, me.

Do not put 20w50 in this thing. My absolute and total bad on that. I'll fix it above appropriately. I apologize profusely.
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One thing I did notice today is that you seem to have put the right tensioner on the left side of the engine in that first picture. The big R is the thing. Although perhaps you caught that and swapped it already after that picture.

I made this video describing why the right side destroys itself when the left side pretty much doesn't in these engines:
So the thing to me is that if the wrong tensioners are installed, that could possibly be causing the left side chain to do the same problem as the right side does as the tensioner fails to be pressured. Potentially, anyway. That'd definitely cause the computer to lose track of where the cam is, though, as the chain flops/oscillates about in there. Doesn't take much, only a couple of degrees of unwanted 'slew' from center and the computer gets mad. The chain flop will cause that much wrong positioning.

So... yeah, if that was supposed to be 'R' for 'Right', then... I'm pretty sure you need to take that timing cover back off, reset the tensioners, and swap them. I'm not too sure what the oiling situation of those tensioners will be when they're flipped. Could be not getting enough pressure. Could be overpressurizing. Could actually be ok, but I wouldn't wanna bet my engine on it... Just a thought...
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And what Bert said. Definitely. To that end, I highly recommend herring and trout, because they're oily and should help lubricate well.

 

Ha! Thanks. I will try some seafoam or GB. And thank you for catching that. It might be a 12 hour job to swap around those tensioners. But its a lot worse to ruin an engine. I will try that as well. I did notice that poor design when I was changing out the chain. Once I installed the new chain, I rotated the crank manually a few rotations to ensure everything was timed as well (in case I was far enough off to get a valve pinging a piston). And as i was doing my manual timing test, I did notice that as I crank, the bottom guide pushes on the tensioner on the passenger side. It pushes the tensioner all the way in and then it just pops right back out and then the chain slaps the top guide. What engineer thought that was smart is beyond me. Really made me concerned for a bit there that I was even doing it correctly...

Unfortunately this project now has to be put on hold for another random problem that I will find out the answer to tomorrow. I am having it towed to a local transmission shop. Pulling into work with it this morning, I lost all gears. No signs or anything. Just out of the blue. I was able to slowly get into my parking spot haha. Its like it tries to engage any gear I put it in, but then the engine revs like its in neutral. No engine light, go grinding. I didnt feel that kick in the *** if you blow a gear. Nothing. It was a love affair for this car from the moment we got it until like a week when it broke the guide haha.
I was also wondering something else about those VCT Solenoids. I ended up buying Standard Motoring Product vs Motorcraft for those.. Now I know a few years back Standard bought out BWD. I am a big fan of BWD for electronics and I really like their stainless redesign of that actuator as you can see in my original post. Now I have watched a couple videos that say I really should go with OEM, but that is typically what a lot of YouTube videos say. So my question is, is this one of those items that Ford makes you choose OEM over Aftermarket and the ECU can detect if it is or isn't OEM? Because what gets me is that it triggered both codes for the driver's side and passenger side. Not just one...

 

It is NOT one of those 'computer knows' things. Proof: I have one OEM original solenoid and one aftermarket, not an issue on my car at all.

As far as which to use... Eh... . Depends on feelings and overall reports of the things if you can get 'em, and/or how hard it is to swap out if fail happens. Some things should be OEM only because they're usually that good. Coil packs for these motors, for example. I keep citing him, but FordTechMakuLoco (on YouTube) is an excellent source of Ford knowledge on the 3Vs. And newer Fords overall. He did a video exclusively on the coil packs on these motors and why Motorcraft is the best for stock. MSD and Accel he's seen break. But Motorcraft is a rarity. According to him, anyway. I'm sure someone will say their experience with their engine was different...

But that's the coils. Again, I've got an original solenoid in the left bank, a BWD/Standard on the right, and it's workin' for me. So far, I'll grant, who knows truly how long that'll work? It doesn't really concern me though. I have the 'take out the plug and swap the solenoid' kind of valve cover, though, with the fun two piece spark plug setup, pre-mid-'07 Triton style. And I have the previous Motorcraft, all cleaned, oiled, and ready to go as a spare, since it didn't actually fail last time. I'd put it in, then get another to stick on the shelf for next time. That said, if you have the post-early-'07 style with the single piece plugs and the tan coils, I think you gotta pull the valve cover, so it's less of an 'Eh...' situation, and in that case, I'd be goin' Motorcraft to ensure I don't do it twice.

But whichever brand you buy/use, one must remember: In all things parts, there's a warranty for a reason. Parts are bad outta the box, or fail in a month or two... Even the best ones. Although with electronics, that warranty goes right out the window when you plug it in the harness, so these things are only warrantied for as long as they stay in the box. I love that goofy exclusion SO much.

Anyway. Yeah, I'd be ok with the BWD/Standard, obviously, as I've got an easy swap. I have the special long stemmed allen socket for the things. Not a problem. In my case. You do you as you need to do. The computer don't care.

 

Yeah I getcha. Thats why I went with BWD. So I am not fully convinced it is the Solenoids myself. Its just such an odd situation... It only has a problem on a cold startup when cold outside. If I leave it in park and let the engine get to temp, it will run fine. If not, and I accelerate when the engine is cold it will throw both codes but once the engine gets to temp, again the shudder goes away. Ive never experienced anything like it. I did stumble on that guy when looking up the job to see its difficulty if I could do the timing chain. I do enjoy his videos. I guess I'm just curious if you have any other point I can try to look at. I'm losing $1,000 or more to the trans at the moment whenever I get it back. The guy has to drop it to find out what is truly going on. I'd like to try to avoid taking it to a Ford Dealership with how much money I've just put into the thing. Kinda thinking Ramen noodles are the dinner for the next couple checks already lol

 

Not really. It's either those tensioners backwards or the solenoids, and/or all of it confuddled with the sludge problem possibly persisting... and then of course the phasers being re-used after that issue may not have been... well, 'kind' perhaps is the word? I hate to say you might have to tear it back down, but... yeah. And you ought to also consider replacing those phasers as well as all the followers and the lash adjusters too. They have an updated design. That's what I did, after reading/understanding things, and it was still quite the gamble. I figured I had nothing to lose, except taking all those parts back off, getting another running engine delivered from LKQ, and then putting all those new parts on it because I ain't gonna waste 'em. Except those phaser bolts, of course.

I wish you luck in all your stuff, man. I hope it all works out good soon!

 

I have the same problem,after replacing chain kit and phaser🙈
you win your trouble?

 

Welcome To TMS!

Sorry to Hear of Your Troubles!

Love To Have You Post in Introductions With Some Pics And Your Mustang Story!

https://themustangsource.com/forums/f650/

Kc
Admin

 

Been a few months, not too much to report since getting it back

• Got the dent fixed (looks great, I'll post a pic later)
• still having tune issues with it revving to 2500 RPM on cold start. It holds that RPM for 3-5 sec and then all of a sudden it cuts and almost floods. After that it starts normally
• other issue with the tune is the coast down/coast back idle, the car doesn't engine brake for 3-5 sec when you let off the gas in gear
• Been driving it pretty regularly, did the first post-breakin oil change and sent it off to Blackstone labs to get an oil analysis done. All levels look good considering the engine is still wearing in.

I've started talking to the shop about the supercharger now. We're looking at doing a air-to-water intercooled Vortech V3 HO tuner kit.
've been doing a lot of reading but can't seem to find an answer: for a centri, when does the boost come in? I know it won't make hardly any at low RPM, but when do you start feeling it? Around 3000 RPM?

Also been reading about what gauges to get. Lots of opinions out there, but I see these in multiple places. The ones I'm leaning towards are in bold:
- Wideband AFR - keep an eye on A/F ratio and make sure it doesn't go lean during a long pull
- Oil pressure - stock gauge is known to be an idiot light
- boost
- exhaust temperature - catch high EGTs before melting the cats
- fuel pressure - could go hand in hand w/ boost to make sure we're supplying enough fuel so it doesn't go lean
- water temperature - I guess to make sure the intercooler has a high enough capacity?
- Aeroforce Interceptor (combo gauge that can display a number of these)

Speaking of cats, I'd never realized it but apparently forced induction has been known to melt the insides of catalytic converters. Found a number of threads on it across multiple boards, but there's really good read on Mustang6G that talks a lot about it, temperatures where it happens (north of 1600 deg), thermal cycling, and adding extra fuel to cool the cats (I remember this from my N/A build in 2015 when my tuner told me my stock fuel pump was at 92% and if I did a track day it might not have enough capacity to handle that). I've got GT500 fuel pumps now, going to be doing injectors, and the Kooks green cats say they're OK for forced induction, so at least we've got a couple steps in the right direction.

 

Thanks For The Update!

Did You Mean To Post in This Thread??

KC

 

Thanks for keeping us up to date!