Thoughts on Camaro vs Mustang Styling, Sales, Next-Gen
6/7/11, 12:59 PM
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Thoughts on Camaro vs Mustang Styling, Sales, Next-Gen
NASDAQ reports Mustang sales are up 59% year over year. While I cheer this, I also take note that Mustang's competitor, the Camaro, is doing even better even though it has been proven inferior to the 2011 Mustang model by just about every publication on the planet (and even the 2010 GT by Car and Driver and some others).
I give Chevy credit for great sales for the new Camaro. My take on why the Camaro continues to do well include the following reaons:
http://www.mustang5oh.com/mustang_camaro.htm
Lastly looking to the next Mustang redesign of 2014/15, I would like to make a few final comments. While I'm all for progress, I lived through the Mustang II days and the almost-replacement of the Fox Mustang with the front-wheel drive 4-cyl Mazda-based Probe. I would like to think that Ford finally has it figured out that a Mustang isn't a Mustang with out a fair amount of recognizable styling "DNA" and basic requirements like rear wheel drive, available V8 engine and manual transmission.
I would like to think there is no reason to worry about what Ford will do with the next generation. However, new average fuel economy requirements go into effect for model year 2016 that are significantly higher than required for today thru 2015 models. With this knowledge, and the fact that Ford has said they want to export the Mustang into other markets, I'm sure all of this will have a significant impact on the design of the next Mustang (eg smaller, lighter, more 4-cylinder engines(?), less V8 engines(?), larger price disparity between the base engine and V8 engine than exists today to encourage 4-cylinder sales and CAFE(?).
As someone who also likes hybrids, plug-in hybrids, electrics, diesels, I'm not afraid of progress. But I do think certain cars (like pony cars) should remain true to their heritage with regards to drivetrain configuration (again, rear wheel drive, available V8 engine, choice of manual or automatic trans, good-sounding dual exhaust, etc). I would not be surprised at all to see the next Mustang come with an eco-boost 4-cyl. This is already being predicted by many in the press.
Lighter weight combined with an eco-boost 4-cyl would likely get the next Mustang up into the upper 30's on the highway and help on the city average as well. It will be interesting to see if it will also have a V8 option (and if so, a 412+ HP 5.0L V8 as an option or a smaller V8 ...like the Lincoln LS and T-bird's 3.9L Jaguar-designed V8??). Will Ford price the V8 beyond the $7,000 it charges today over the base engine? Already, the Mustang GT is barely affordable to its target class of customers. I would hate to see the V8/GT become unaffordable to all but the well-off.
Every time there are significant changes in fuel economy and emissions standards, the car manufacturers meet them with their standard edition cars, but it seems to take them longer to also figure out the high-performance aspect of meeting the new requirements.
My gut tells me that the current design Mustangs are going to be the best Mustangs ever for a long time. Folks like me who lamented they didn't buy a 1969-70 Mustang back in the day (my opinion of the best vintage years of the Mustang) feel so lucky to be able to buy a 2011/12 Mustang that, in many ways, has the appeal of the '69-70 models but with all the modern improvements that make a car much more enjoyable to own and drive.
If folks wait for the next redesign instead of buying a 2012/13 model, they just might miss out on the greatest model of Mustang ever.
Sorry for the long post but I had much to share.
I give Chevy credit for great sales for the new Camaro. My take on why the Camaro continues to do well include the following reaons:
o Availability. Chevy dealers seem to have a much larger allocation for their Camaros than do Ford dealers for their Mustangs. In the Dallas area where I live, I checked the inventory of a large Ford dealer and a large Chevy dealer via their web sites. The Chevy dealer (Friendly Chevrolet) had over 30 Camaros in stock and the Ford dealer (Park Cities Ford) had just 4 Mustangs in stock (I have visually confirmed this). Both dealers are within 2-3 miles of each other. Based on my observations, this volume disparity is typical, not just for this time period. I checked another large Ford dealer (Grand Prairie Ford) and they had 3 Mustangs in stock.
Most folks don't want to order a car or have a dealer truck one in from another dealer hundreds of miles away. If they don't see what they want, they go elsewhere and, in this case, to the Chevy dealer where they apparently maintain a large inventory. You can Google these three dealers yourself and click the inventory icon view.
o Publicity. The new Camaro received great publicity with the Transformers movie, especially appealing to the younger folks who watched this movie.
o Optional stripes package. The Camaro has a really nice stripes package. The package consists of essentially two large stripes on the hood but it's really transformational on the Camaro, IMO. I've yet to see a decent stripe package offered by Ford for the Mustang. On the one hand, I prefer a car's natural lines instead of relying on stripes to jazz things up. On the other hand, the stripes on the Shelby GT500 and the Camaro SS look really good. They are popular on the Camaro (its hood size and shape seem to lend itself to stripes). The best stripe package I've seen on the current Mustang is on Roush's Stage 3 Mustang.
o Pent-up demand. Yes, this one has been bantered around quite a bit for almost two years. But, I believe it is still somewhat valid considering not everyone who wanted a Camaro could buy one the first year they were available. Some (many?) didn't have jobs in the failing economy, now they do. Others didn't have enough savings once they made the decision to buy, now they do. Thus, I'm not surprised that pent-up demand may still not be satisified after two years.
Many negative comments have been made about the Camaro's styling in the press and in the forums. Comments like: It's porky, it's chunky, it's like driving in a tank, etc. To validate some of these, I conducted my own "Mustang vs. Camaro Styling Contest." Yes, it's subjective, of course. But, I've noticed that while the Camaro may look good in the professional photos the public sees in the press, when you compare it from just basic front, side, rear angles, the Camaro's styling just doesn't hold up compared to the Mustang. I invite you to view the contest photos and results on my web pageMost folks don't want to order a car or have a dealer truck one in from another dealer hundreds of miles away. If they don't see what they want, they go elsewhere and, in this case, to the Chevy dealer where they apparently maintain a large inventory. You can Google these three dealers yourself and click the inventory icon view.
o Publicity. The new Camaro received great publicity with the Transformers movie, especially appealing to the younger folks who watched this movie.
o Optional stripes package. The Camaro has a really nice stripes package. The package consists of essentially two large stripes on the hood but it's really transformational on the Camaro, IMO. I've yet to see a decent stripe package offered by Ford for the Mustang. On the one hand, I prefer a car's natural lines instead of relying on stripes to jazz things up. On the other hand, the stripes on the Shelby GT500 and the Camaro SS look really good. They are popular on the Camaro (its hood size and shape seem to lend itself to stripes). The best stripe package I've seen on the current Mustang is on Roush's Stage 3 Mustang.
o Pent-up demand. Yes, this one has been bantered around quite a bit for almost two years. But, I believe it is still somewhat valid considering not everyone who wanted a Camaro could buy one the first year they were available. Some (many?) didn't have jobs in the failing economy, now they do. Others didn't have enough savings once they made the decision to buy, now they do. Thus, I'm not surprised that pent-up demand may still not be satisified after two years.
http://www.mustang5oh.com/mustang_camaro.htm
Lastly looking to the next Mustang redesign of 2014/15, I would like to make a few final comments. While I'm all for progress, I lived through the Mustang II days and the almost-replacement of the Fox Mustang with the front-wheel drive 4-cyl Mazda-based Probe. I would like to think that Ford finally has it figured out that a Mustang isn't a Mustang with out a fair amount of recognizable styling "DNA" and basic requirements like rear wheel drive, available V8 engine and manual transmission.
I would like to think there is no reason to worry about what Ford will do with the next generation. However, new average fuel economy requirements go into effect for model year 2016 that are significantly higher than required for today thru 2015 models. With this knowledge, and the fact that Ford has said they want to export the Mustang into other markets, I'm sure all of this will have a significant impact on the design of the next Mustang (eg smaller, lighter, more 4-cylinder engines(?), less V8 engines(?), larger price disparity between the base engine and V8 engine than exists today to encourage 4-cylinder sales and CAFE(?).
As someone who also likes hybrids, plug-in hybrids, electrics, diesels, I'm not afraid of progress. But I do think certain cars (like pony cars) should remain true to their heritage with regards to drivetrain configuration (again, rear wheel drive, available V8 engine, choice of manual or automatic trans, good-sounding dual exhaust, etc). I would not be surprised at all to see the next Mustang come with an eco-boost 4-cyl. This is already being predicted by many in the press.
Lighter weight combined with an eco-boost 4-cyl would likely get the next Mustang up into the upper 30's on the highway and help on the city average as well. It will be interesting to see if it will also have a V8 option (and if so, a 412+ HP 5.0L V8 as an option or a smaller V8 ...like the Lincoln LS and T-bird's 3.9L Jaguar-designed V8??). Will Ford price the V8 beyond the $7,000 it charges today over the base engine? Already, the Mustang GT is barely affordable to its target class of customers. I would hate to see the V8/GT become unaffordable to all but the well-off.
Every time there are significant changes in fuel economy and emissions standards, the car manufacturers meet them with their standard edition cars, but it seems to take them longer to also figure out the high-performance aspect of meeting the new requirements.
My gut tells me that the current design Mustangs are going to be the best Mustangs ever for a long time. Folks like me who lamented they didn't buy a 1969-70 Mustang back in the day (my opinion of the best vintage years of the Mustang) feel so lucky to be able to buy a 2011/12 Mustang that, in many ways, has the appeal of the '69-70 models but with all the modern improvements that make a car much more enjoyable to own and drive.
If folks wait for the next redesign instead of buying a 2012/13 model, they just might miss out on the greatest model of Mustang ever.
Sorry for the long post but I had much to share.
6/7/11, 01:21 PM
#3
A Man Just Needs Some....
Yep. Don't really dig the new mustang styling. Sorry guys. Just not as exciting as the engines. My old dealership owner just recently bought a Ford dealership and says how difficult it is to even get the cars. Chrysler is begging him to take cars for the dodge dealership. And he is begging for fords. He can't keep a mustang on the lot and they won't send him enough.
6/7/11, 01:40 PM
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I like my car just fine. Yeah, it's a little plain sitting next to a camaro. Let me correct myself, a camaro SS. The V6 with those tiny wheels looks terrible. GM really knocked it out of the park when they designed the 'whole package.' It all flows together with the wheels and accents. It's just a more complete car than the mustang in terms of styling. That by itself is what I believe is responsible for the camaro's strong sales figures. The minority buy cars based on technical merit. The new 2010+ stang styling is just a refreshed 2005+. Essentially the same basic look. It's a good looking car, it's just not the head turner that it was in 2005 when it was new.
I agree with you OP, these could be the best model mustangs ever built.
It's only going to get harder to own cars like these, they aren't long for this world. My philosophy: enjoy them now. No regrets, proud 2011 owner here.
I agree with you OP, these could be the best model mustangs ever built.
It's only going to get harder to own cars like these, they aren't long for this world. My philosophy: enjoy them now. No regrets, proud 2011 owner here.
6/7/11, 01:52 PM
#5
Nice write up and comparison.
The Mustang is a great looking car and the Challenger has a nice retro style, but I still think the Camaro is the hottest of the trio. In my opinion, in looks, it's Camaro -> Mustang -> Challenger. My car was parked next to a white RT and there was just no comparison.
I've come to like the Mustang rear (specifically the lights), but I can't say I love it. The Camaro looks fuller and more bull-ish (thus the performance and visibility suffer), but its rear lights are simply just ugly, whereas the Mustang's rear lights are too "euro" for my tastes.
In your picture comparisons, I thought the Camaro won all except the front end, and that's with some of the most unflattering pictures of the Camaro I have ever seen, but that's no surprise. The Mustang with its new power dome and sharper hood contours is a sexy beast from the front.
For me, I'm waiting on the 2015MY redesign. I agree with you in that I'm also hoping Ford won't crap all over the Mustang on its 50th anniversary by pushing out turbo 4-bangers. A V8 option has to be available, I just hope it won't be priced at a premium because of the government's push for better fuel economy.
But if the redesign turns out to be undesirable (for me), then I will just pick up a 2014. I'm sure that's what a lot of people feel, so there's no need to buy now, especially since a slight refresh comes out next year and a complete redesign in three years.
The Mustang is a great looking car and the Challenger has a nice retro style, but I still think the Camaro is the hottest of the trio. In my opinion, in looks, it's Camaro -> Mustang -> Challenger. My car was parked next to a white RT and there was just no comparison.
I've come to like the Mustang rear (specifically the lights), but I can't say I love it. The Camaro looks fuller and more bull-ish (thus the performance and visibility suffer), but its rear lights are simply just ugly, whereas the Mustang's rear lights are too "euro" for my tastes.
In your picture comparisons, I thought the Camaro won all except the front end, and that's with some of the most unflattering pictures of the Camaro I have ever seen, but that's no surprise. The Mustang with its new power dome and sharper hood contours is a sexy beast from the front.
For me, I'm waiting on the 2015MY redesign. I agree with you in that I'm also hoping Ford won't crap all over the Mustang on its 50th anniversary by pushing out turbo 4-bangers. A V8 option has to be available, I just hope it won't be priced at a premium because of the government's push for better fuel economy.
But if the redesign turns out to be undesirable (for me), then I will just pick up a 2014. I'm sure that's what a lot of people feel, so there's no need to buy now, especially since a slight refresh comes out next year and a complete redesign in three years.
6/7/11, 02:17 PM
#6
A Man Just Needs Some....
I think GM might have figured something out with the GTO. Amazing powertrain, drivetrain, and interior. And looked like crap. Plain doesn't sell well here. The challenger is gorgeous but the styling is directed to the people who remember them. The camaro is fresh for everybody. Ford needs to step up before I upgrade from my terminator.
6/7/11, 02:24 PM
#7
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i think the pent up demand factor should not be taken lightly, you are looking at 5 years of no camaro for customers that would have otherwise bought one. and most likely they bought something else in that period so its not like they all can just go out and drop that vehicle for a new camaro on the double, especially in this economy. i think it will take 3-4 years to get that pent up demand out of the system. Its pretty obvious that as a DD and on measurable statistics the mustang is a better car whether it be performance or economy, trunk space, interior space, quality etc. Styling is subjective and it is definitely a factor in sales. personally i dont like the bulky look of the camaro or the hugeness of the challenger. but thats just me.
for the next gen i think it is likely we will see an eco4 as the base engine and maybe a 6 in the middle with the V8 being pushed further up market. in order to meet the cafe standard they need to increase economy on all the engines but also make sure sales mix out towards the higher mileage variants. continuing to push the V8 up market and up in price will accomplish the goal of reducing its percent of sales mix and its impact on the cafe number while still maintaining the V8 offering. I understand this isnt ideal but it looks to be the way things are going so get your savings on now if you want a 2015 V8.
for the next gen i think it is likely we will see an eco4 as the base engine and maybe a 6 in the middle with the V8 being pushed further up market. in order to meet the cafe standard they need to increase economy on all the engines but also make sure sales mix out towards the higher mileage variants. continuing to push the V8 up market and up in price will accomplish the goal of reducing its percent of sales mix and its impact on the cafe number while still maintaining the V8 offering. I understand this isnt ideal but it looks to be the way things are going so get your savings on now if you want a 2015 V8.
6/7/11, 03:15 PM
#8
Cobra Member
The ONLY reason that I didn't consider the Camaro was due to no LS3 engines in the Autos. I'm a former manual transmisssion guy thru & thru but knee surgeries and a Lentech AOD in my Fox Body 347 changed my mind. I've turned a head or 2 in this Kona though. I love these Stangs. I have no doubt that even if an Auto Camaro LS3 was available; I made the right choice.
6/7/11, 04:10 PM
#9
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I personally think the Camaro is fat and overstyled. My God, every surface has a cut, line, radius, etc. Its "great looks" kill the view from the cockpit, too, as it feels as though you're piloting a tank or something even more claustrophobic. The Challenger is gorgeous but, like the Camaro, its heft makes it look like a beached whale from some angles; it doesn't help performance, either. The smaller, more-understated Mustang is my preference.
6/7/11, 05:04 PM
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I am somewhat ambivalent about the current Mustang and Camaro styles. I much prefer the Challenger to either, in the looks department. I think the Mustang and Camaro have a similar problem that Dodge avoided. The new Mustang has elements I like--but they don't all hang together. It looks like the front and the rear were designed by two separate groups that had no idea what the other was doing. Taken by themselves, they aren't unattractive, but together--it just doesn't flow; it doesn't work for me.
The Camaro affects me the same way. From certain angles it looks good--I like the profile. But the rear seems awkward--I can't figure out what happened with the backup lights. Did they forget them in the original design and just tack them on? And the beak-like element to the front grill just seems wrong. It is not as appealing as the simple, classic look of the '69. The last of the F4's were just as impractical, ergonomically, but at least the style seemed to flow together.
The Challenger design seems to be the most cohesive of the three. Too bad it is huge. But the proportions are well done--it's only when you see it next to another car do you realize how big it is. It looks good, but as far as being the complete package, looks, value, performance, it doesn't quite measure up to the other two.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I won't begrudge anyone believing their new Mustang/Camaro is the best looking ride on the market. But, I am hoping the next gen Mustang, whatever the design, hangs together better. I'm looking forward to a new pony in the next couple years.
The Camaro affects me the same way. From certain angles it looks good--I like the profile. But the rear seems awkward--I can't figure out what happened with the backup lights. Did they forget them in the original design and just tack them on? And the beak-like element to the front grill just seems wrong. It is not as appealing as the simple, classic look of the '69. The last of the F4's were just as impractical, ergonomically, but at least the style seemed to flow together.
The Challenger design seems to be the most cohesive of the three. Too bad it is huge. But the proportions are well done--it's only when you see it next to another car do you realize how big it is. It looks good, but as far as being the complete package, looks, value, performance, it doesn't quite measure up to the other two.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I won't begrudge anyone believing their new Mustang/Camaro is the best looking ride on the market. But, I am hoping the next gen Mustang, whatever the design, hangs together better. I'm looking forward to a new pony in the next couple years.
6/7/11, 06:59 PM
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Hmmmm to me the Challenger V6 SE version which is simply just plain looking as **** and ugly compared to a plain V6 camaro and V6 version of the mustang. Its only when you move up to the R/T, SRT/8 that the challenger starts to look really good (stripes extra exterior mods) with an engine to match it.
A standard base priced 2005 to 2009 mustang with no exterior mods is ugly compared to a standard base priced 2010 mustang+ body style but thats my opinion.
Its all about the appearance mods that transform the car too looking much better than it originally started off looking like.
I used to think the camaro was the hottest looking car when i first saw one, now i think there big and porky looking and not as cool, i see them everywhere now lol.
Best looking muscle/sport cars from best to worst (GM, FORD, DODGE):
1. Shelby GT 500 super snake
2. 2011 Challenger SRT/8
3. Shelby GT 500
4. 2011 Challenger R/T
5. 2011 Mustang V6 PP,MCA
6. 2011 Mustang GT
7. 2010 Camaro SS
8. 2010 Camaro V6
9. 2010 Challenger SE
A standard base priced 2005 to 2009 mustang with no exterior mods is ugly compared to a standard base priced 2010 mustang+ body style but thats my opinion.
Its all about the appearance mods that transform the car too looking much better than it originally started off looking like.
I used to think the camaro was the hottest looking car when i first saw one, now i think there big and porky looking and not as cool, i see them everywhere now lol.
Best looking muscle/sport cars from best to worst (GM, FORD, DODGE):
1. Shelby GT 500 super snake
2. 2011 Challenger SRT/8
3. Shelby GT 500
4. 2011 Challenger R/T
5. 2011 Mustang V6 PP,MCA
6. 2011 Mustang GT
7. 2010 Camaro SS
8. 2010 Camaro V6
9. 2010 Challenger SE
Last edited by adrenalin; 6/8/11 at 02:35 PM. Reason: language
6/7/11, 11:15 PM
#12
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I personally think the Camaro is fat and overstyled. My God, every surface has a cut, line, radius, etc. Its "great looks" kill the view from the cockpit, too, as it feels as though you're piloting a tank or something even more claustrophobic. The Challenger is gorgeous but, like the Camaro, its heft makes it look like a beached whale from some angles; it doesn't help performance, either. The smaller, more-understated Mustang is my preference.
6/7/11, 11:34 PM
#13
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Most people are not car buffs . They buy what looks good and to most people the camaro looks better end of story .
Now to people that are into cars the mustang dose every thing better and weights less . The car sell it self to them but this group is a smaller group.
Now to people that are into cars the mustang dose every thing better and weights less . The car sell it self to them but this group is a smaller group.
)
6/8/11, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 2012GT
The ONLY reason that I didn't consider the Camaro was due to no LS3 engines in the Autos. I'm a former manual transmisssion guy thru & thru but knee surgeries and a Lentech AOD in my Fox Body 347 changed my mind. I've turned a head or 2 in this Kona though. I love these Stangs. I have no doubt that even if an Auto Camaro LS3 was available; I made the right choice.
6/8/11, 06:50 AM
#16
Shelby GT350 Member
Excellent discussion here...good points all around.
Personally, I prefer the look of the Mustang to the cartoony Camaro...but I prefer look of the Challenger to the Mustang by a narrow margin. The sheer size of the Challenger (and associated mass) was one of the key factors for my going Mustang again.
I have been thrilled with my Mustangs...both the '11 and my much missed 2009 GT completely exceeded my expectations. That said, if the next gen Camaro and or Challenger are smaller, ligher, more agile (and faster), I will absolutely cross-shop them again.
Is there any talk of a next-gen Challenger? Please say that they're not talking about going to the 1972-1974 style "sad mouth" grille...
I don't know about you guys... but I love all of the current crop of muscle cars. I can't help but stare at any/all of them.
Personally, I prefer the look of the Mustang to the cartoony Camaro...but I prefer look of the Challenger to the Mustang by a narrow margin. The sheer size of the Challenger (and associated mass) was one of the key factors for my going Mustang again.
I have been thrilled with my Mustangs...both the '11 and my much missed 2009 GT completely exceeded my expectations. That said, if the next gen Camaro and or Challenger are smaller, ligher, more agile (and faster), I will absolutely cross-shop them again.
Is there any talk of a next-gen Challenger? Please say that they're not talking about going to the 1972-1974 style "sad mouth" grille...
I don't know about you guys... but I love all of the current crop of muscle cars. I can't help but stare at any/all of them.
6/8/11, 07:12 AM
#17
I Have No Life
6/8/11, 08:13 AM
#18
Shelby GT350 Member
Last year or so, I remember reading that one of the design criteria for the '10+ Mustang refresh was to make it look smaller...which I think worked very well and it was accomplished with expertly applied creases and curves.
6/8/11, 08:28 AM
#20
I Have No Life
True... but you guys probably realize that these are efforts to reduce visual size. A big, broad slab of metal would probably not be an improvement.
Last year or so, I remember reading that one of the design criteria for the '10+ Mustang refresh was to make it look smaller...which I think worked very well and it was accomplished with expertly applied creases and curves.
Last year or so, I remember reading that one of the design criteria for the '10+ Mustang refresh was to make it look smaller...which I think worked very well and it was accomplished with expertly applied creases and curves.
The challenger is a nice looking slab. Big slab..but nice looking slab.
That's not to say the Camaro would have looked better with less lines or not as many hard creases.
THe 2010+ Mustang personally I think looks great.
The diaper doesn't bother me, and the overall style of the car is stunning.
The size difference was achieved with the black moulding, whether people like it or not. Have those painted, and the car looks bigger. The design on the back end wouldn't look right if it was (as is) all painted..it looks like a long skirt.
If they do decide to change some of those aspects for the 2013, it would be nice to (if they kept it the same design) to paint parts of it to break up the black parts, or they'd have to redesign that insert to flow better, and tuck in nicer.
Again, those are just my thoughts...