97GT03SVT

Well the 2008s are in the showrooms.........2005, 2006, 2007 and now 2008 makes 4 model years, plus the 05's were availible in late 2004. I personaly disagree with the s197 mustang popularity not dying off. The big thing with the 05' Mustang is that many people who were not fans of the 4th gen cars bought into the retro looks. With no camaro or challenger in the lineup mopar and gm guys were buying mustangs (i know quite a few) i think those buyers bought in 05-06 now the current buyers are the longtime mustang faithful. But i do also agree that the economy has an effect. Plus used low mileage 05' GTs can be had for low 20k mark and for the most part the car is exactly the same as the 08' with the exception to a few minor details in features, colors, wheels and so on

m05fastbackGT

Well first of all, I don't go by model years..I go by the model's build date.

So if you prefer to consider the 2008, as the 4th model year..I don't have a problem with that. However, my 05 GT was factory ordered, and being that it was built on Febuary 5th, 2005.. My car is going on 3 years old, and not 4..

As for your opinion, concerning people buying into the 05, due to not being fans of the previous SN-95 generation.. is completely absurd.

As I previously had mentioned, sales of the SN-95 remained strong, right up to the very end of it's production run in 2004..

And FYI, I just happen to be one of those long time Mustang faithful, in which my current 05.. Is now my fifth Mustang, that I've had the privilege of owning during the past 28 years..So don't even attempt to lecture me about the longtime Mustang faithful..

And while were still on the subject..Many of us Mustang faithful, also happen to be baby boomers, who purchased their 05-06 Stangs. Because of the fact, the retro styling reminds them of their 1st generation 65-68 models..And btw: it's also the longtime Mustang faithful, who are not only current buyers, but also long time repeat customers as well..And that includes the previous 4th generation cars..

That being said ! your completely entitled to your own opinions, and have every right to disagree..

However, when it comes down to making statements, concerning other people.. Such as people, not being fans of the previous SN-95 Mustang..And especially those about, longtime Mustang customers, such as yours truly..

You best either have the facts to back them up..Or keep those opinions strictly to yourself..

97GT03SVT

I don't understand how i'm being absurd? For one I was not making fun of the Long time Mustang owners I myself have owned three and probly always will have one. All I am saying is that a big part of the 05's popularity is that the retro stang appeals to more people than the 99-04. I know from personal experience many people who have never bought a mustang or havent owned one since the 60s. You are correct about 04' sales being strong too but don't you think a big part of that is that the car had no direct competiton? As I said before I know hardcore Chevy and Dodge guys that have bought the new Mustang because they wanted a Muscle car and not a 4 door- Charger or a Monte Carlo or the understyled GTO. All I am saying is factual. In 2005-06 seeing an 05' on the road got people's attention and it is still a beautiful car, one of the best looking Mustangs built...but any car that becomes common after a couple years doesnt have the gotta have it that these new camaros and challengers will enjoy for the first year or two. I know we are only discussing opinions here but I think the main concern with the current Mustang is that it will for the first time have real competiton.

97GT03SVT

And you said many 05' buyers are baby boomers, that supports my point. Though people like you or me for that matter like both generations many 05' buyers would never have bought a stang if it wasnt retro!

poldrv

It might be a good idea and maybe even have a market as long as the cougar looked like the 1968-1969 version.

AWmustang

Didn't the '04 Mustangs have to some pretty big rebates attached to them that kept the sales numbers up in light of the new model.

And weren't '05 models going for MORE than sticker. There were no discounts, rebates or special APR available from Ford, that I know of. In fact when I was looking for my '05 I had trouble finding a dealer willing to do Z Plan on a V6.

Now for a brand new '08 there is between $1000 and $2500 in rebates available.

That doesn't lead me to believe Ford thinks sales have remained strong.

97GT03SVT

I agree, I don't understand how Mercury took a chance with the Marauder (a pimped out Grand Marque) but yet not take a cance with the Cougar. I think the Cougar is the most iconic Mercury out their so if they bring it back who knows it might make my 68' project worth more. If they build it and it doesnt sell kill it off after 3 or so model years just give it a shot and it can't bomb more than the rest of Fords lineup (Taurus, Freestyle, Focus.....)

97GT03SVT

I also had difficulty trying to buy an 05' back in 2005. I ended up buying a brand new 04' GT fully loaded for only $18,500. The 05 GTs were selling 5k above sticker. Cool thing is when my 04' got stolen i was given $24,000 and wound up buying an 03' Cobra. As i posted earlier the 05' was able to capture the hearts (and wallets) of the wealthy baby boomer generation. Many, but not all had no interest in the fox or sn95 cars. This includes my father, uncle, neighbor, my die hard chevy fan cousin....They all bought 05's because of at the time unique and exotic styling plus a lack of options. Now 05' Mustangs are everywhere and are as common as 4th gen cars. In April the Challenger is set to go on sale, next fall the Camaro. If i was a Chevy guy looking to buy a muscle car i'd hold out for the Camaro and likewise for the Mopar guys with the Challenger. In 2005 those people didnt have that option thus Ford got loyal GM and Mopar guys to buy the Mustang

V10

I disagree, we're just into the 3rd sales year for the S197 Mustang and sales are really sagging.

The last generation Mustang did better in sales, which raises the question "What's gone wrong with the S197?", especially considering how much better the S197 is than the SN95.

Looking at US sales:
1999: 166,916
2000: 173,676
2001: 169,198
2002: 138,356

So the SN95 had 3 years of great sales, not dropping significantly until the 4th sales year.

No let's look at the S197
2005: 160,975
2006: 166,530
2007: 135,000 estimated for the full year, based on the sales through October

So the S197 has dropped in sales after only 2 sales years. And before blaming high gas prices and sagging auto sales, remember that the stock market crashed in 2000 and 2000, 2001 & 2002 were tough years for jobs and the economy. In addition, overall vehicle sales for 2007 are going to be about the same as 2006 and 2005. The import brands are holding up pretty well, it's only sales of the US brands that are sagging.

But getting back to the Cougar, the question all of you have been ignoring is "How many Mustang sales would be lost to the Cougar." I have the feeling that less than have of any Cougar sales would be incremental to the Mustang, which further reduces the viability of the Cougar.

The bottom line is that the market for 2 door sporty cars like the Mustang is limited. The Mustang is still king of this small and dimishing car type segment. Ford would be ill advised to take away any of the Mustang's thunder and market dominance by making a S197 version of the Cougar.

V10

The answer is very simple.
Producing the Marauder was very low cost to do. It was just a modified version of an existing car, the Grand Marquis. All it required was a few low cost trim options and putting a different engine that was already developed into an existing car model.

Regarding a S197 Cougar, the dies that stamp the sheet metal parts are VERY expensive as are the molds for all the interior parts and require a large number of cars to be sold in order to justify the cost of the tooling. A S197 Cougar is not economically viable.

FLAstangx3

Mercury will be dead within three years. A Cougar won't prevent that.

m05fastbackGT

Phil ! you once again misunderstood.. As I never accused you personally of being absurd.

I clearly stated, that your opinion concerning the previous SN-95 was absurd. And although there were rebate incentives in 2004..

The bottom line is.. Sales for the 4th generation cars remained strong, even before the demise of the F-body Camaro..
So how can you possible claim, that a big reason behind sales remaining strong, was due to the car not having direct competition..

I mean come on now, there was definitely competiton between the SN-95 and F-body Camaro.

And in the end, it was the SN-95 that led to the extinction of the 4th generation Camaro/Trans-Am..

The reason ! The Mustang won the 4th generation pony wars, just as it always did generations before, in which both the Camaro and T/A could not outsell the Mustang.. Despite the fact, that both the Camaro and Firebird outperfomed it..


The reason, once again..The Mustang always offered the better overall practical alternative, to both the novice and to the enthusisast..
While also providing the best overall, bang for the buck performance value as well..

As for getting back to the SN-95 sales numbers ! I believe that if you take a look at V-10's post..this indirectly confirms my previous statements as well..

As for baby Boomers not liking both generations ! Well I'm a baby boomer who likes all Mustangs, even the Mustang II lol..
Although I'll fully admit, my main reason for buying my 05 GT..was the retro styling strongly resembles the 1st generation models, that I've admired since the mid 1960's..

Perhaps the reason why I had no difficulty in purchasing my 05 GT,
was because.. I factory ordered it back in November 2004, as opposed to trying to buy it directly off the dealer lot..

I pretty much also got all the premium options, with the exception of the red leather seats, and red door panel inserts for a grand total of..$27,110.00..

Which is pretty much at MSRP, after including all the options..Along with the ESP warranty package..

m05fastbackGT

Once again, I must disagree..There's many baby boomers, who in addition to holding onto their 1st generation cars. Also own fox bodies, and SN-95 GT's, 03-04 Mach 1's, and Cobra's.

In fact..I run across them quite often, at the local car cruise events.

I know this one guy, who owns a 68 coupe, 69 Mach 1, 87 fox body notchback, and a 91 fox body GT.

But then again, he also owns his own company..who obviously isn't hurting financially.. Guess it must be really nice to be wealthy..

And yes, I'm just a bit jealous as well.. lol. And although I'm part of the baby boomer generation..I'm far from being considered, as wealthy..

TMSBrad

Ford killed an S197 Cougar that had made it to the clay model stage. It had hideaway headlights and an upscale interior, which was to be carried over to the GT500, along with the Cougar's IRS.

97GT03SVT

Oh well i guess this post is pointless with no shot at a cougar possible

m05fastbackGT

Well you never know..it's possible that Ford may reconsider, sometime in the near future..

So don't give up hope..

97GT03SVT

My opinion is if they use the same chassis, but give it unique body panels like the difference between the 98 to 99 Mustangs that a Cougar can be made quickly and cheap and look very good.

Thunder Road

Well I know 1 baby boomer who wouldnt be driving a Mustang if it weren't for the s197. I have always been a Ford man, but no Mustangs made between 1974-2004 interested me enough to want one.

Back to the Cougar, it culd be a good seller but not as another pony car. It would need to have a bit more rear seat room and be in the BMW M3 catagory. Luxury performance.

elcaminoguy

If there was a chance at a cougar I would hope it looked like one of the concept photos earlier in this thread. If it looked anything like the abortion that they put out a few years ago it wouldn't sell. That ricer inspired bunch of ugliness didin't deserve the cougar moniker.

Something like an AAR Cougar with a stretched S197 body (which would be very much like the classic original cougar formula by the way) would be ok. It would have to be distinct though.

My neighbor actually owns a 73 Cougar XR7 covertible. You can definitely see the Mustang cues but it is distinct and actually has a completely different interior and powertrain pieces to it.

As for the Mustang killing the GM F-bodies, no dice. What killed the F Bodies at GM were corporate bean counters, almost no promotion, Poor 80's engineering, overpriced options and a love affair with SUV's and mini-vans. I remember looking at a sticker on a Z28 and seeing 1500.00 for an automatic transmission and 1200.00 for Air Conditioning. Nothing special about it either. This was like 1992.

You also have to remember that GM had both the Camaro and the Firebird which each were doing roughly 60,000 cars a year (roughly 120,000 total) towards the end. Which isn't that awfully far off of what Mustang numbers may have been back then. They were basically the same car with some considerable interior differences and minor styling differences. Pop the back and front end pieces off, however, and you couldn't tell one from the other.

It's a very real danger that a corporate cousin can kill off sales but if there's enough distinction and an untapped market who want a little more luxury than a highly optioned GT but still want similar styling it could work in limited production.

As for whether my 08 is in it's 4th or 3rd year. Well, mine was built on Sept 7th of this year but it's an 08. The 96 Camaro I owned was built in June of 1995 bit it was still and 96. So in reality the model years and actual build dates don't always match. In fact i've only owned one car that was actually built in the same year as it's model year.
Anyway it only matters when you go to sell it and try to get a blue book price. I for sure will be glad that mine is an 08 model year instead of 07 when it comes tradin' time. Believe it or not it's about a 1500.00 difference from one model year to the next when it comes to trade-in value.

bt4

I don't think so. 2000-2001 was not a good time for the F-bodies. Mustang outsold the outgoing twins by a 2-1 margin. Mustang sales for 2001 was 169,198. 2001 Camaro sales were less than 40,000 units (according to GM.Media.com 35,453) and Firebird didn't sell as well as the Chevy and sold less than 30,000 units (25,743 according to GM.Media.com). Yes it was a bean counter decision to pull the plug. But it was a no-brainer--poor sales and poor margin.