TomServo92

You're missing my point: the D35 makes comparable power with less techno-gadgetry (VVT, DI, etc). That's what impresses me (and apparantely Wards as well) about the D35.

TomServo92

Confusing ain't it!

V10

The D35 has VVT on it's intake valve.

Again per my last post with all it's techno-gadgetry that does not include DI, the Nissian 3.5L VQ puts out up to 300 HP, clearly more than the D35 today.

TomServo92

That's with an aggressive 91 octane tune and VVT on the intake and exhaust so I would expect it to make more HP. The more pedestrian VQs make the same and in some case less than the D35.

jsaylor

For what it's worth the VQ employs a variable geometry intake on those 300hp versions as well, yet another feature which the Duratec does not employ. Given the 300 hp VQ's advantages of exhaust side cam phasing, variable geometry intake, and premium fuel tuning the VQ's edge in power over the Duratec is hardly a surprise.

Apples to apples the 3.5L stacks up nicely against any other V-6 currently available in terms of power, with it and the Nissan VQ likely representing the two most fundamentally sound designs currently on the market. Of course, it would be nice if some of Ford's 'apples' made it to the party with direct injection, turbochargers, etc...sooner rather than later.

Boomer

Mmmmm Turbocharged Apples.......

jsaylor

Actually, I got to thinking about that after I posted it. But it was the whole concept of "direct injected" apples that bothered me. Makes for some questionable consumption techniques....... .....could've worded that one better for sure.

V10

That's the point I've been trying to make all along.

The D35, as you say, "Stacks up nicely" but does not have any clear cut advantages over the competition.

Since the competition has had 3.5L V6s with good power output and fuel economy for several years, Ford is still playing catch up in the engine compartment.

TomServo92

Once again I disagree. The clear cut advantage in my book is that the D35 makes the same power on 87 and without the techno-gadgetry. In other words, it's a better basic platform than the others with ample "room to grow". I can't understand why you don't understand that simple concept.

The question of whether Ford will be around to exploit that excellent platform is another matter....

jsaylor

I think I'm somewhere between you and Tomservo on this one. The Duratec proves a match for any competitive V-6 on the market, and employs less gadgetry than any of those do in the process. From a platform standpoint this says that the Duratec is at least a match for the long time V-6 leader, the Nissan VQ in terms of ability and potential ability. That is impressive and I would have to consider that a quantifiable lead over the competition.

However, the fact that this engine is going to simply trickle into some of the product that needs it the most, like the Fusion, and that we have no idea how long we'll have to wait for items like exhaust side VVT/cam phasing, variable geomoetry intakes, and high-compression/premium fuel versions, makes the above a promise we can't expect to fully enjoy for many years.

For example, a CGI 3.8-4.0L, Duratec V-6 with exhaust-side cam phasing, which could easily be expected to make at least 300hp even on 87 octane while providing superb torque, would no doubt go a long way toward fixing the Edge's weight woes if combined with 7 or 8 speed auto tranny and a better set of brakes. The same on premium fuel and with DI would be fanastic without doubt....and we can't get those engines soon enough.

TomServo92

Here, I agree. The old warhorse 3.0L needs to be retired. The D35 should be the standard bearer for all V6 applications. What Ford does with the Lincoln MKS 3.7L variant will be very telling in regards to where they're going with the D35 family.

Hollywood_North GT

Technology and performance aside, the D35 also has yet to prove its reliability against the VQ. The VQ is a Wards Ten Best for 12 straight years running, if I'm not mistaken.

TomServo92

I can agree with that although it does appear to be a very sturdy design. Time will tell.

jsaylor

I would agree but for the fact that the new VQ, which will eventually replace the older model altogether, resembles the outoing version just about as closely as the new Duratec resembles it's forebearer. Put simply these engines share their names, basic layout, and not much else. That makes reliability an unknown in both cases.

V10

And I can't understand how you think bringing a product to market 3 years late is ground breaking.

At least your last sentance indicates that you do have an understanding of the consequences of being late to market.

TomServo92

I never said it was groundbreaking. I said it was impressive considering it matches the output of designs that are much more mechanically complicated. How come almighty Nissan can't produce a 265HP 3.5L without using VVT, complicated variable intakes, and tuning for 91 octane?

Hollywood_North GT

I'll take a stab at that. Probably because it's not JUST about power output. As I was alluding to before, there are other factors at play, for example power delivery through the RPM range and when that power "comes on," smoothness of power delivery (I believe Nissan is still using the low friction molybdenum coatings on their pistons), NVH from the engine throughout the rev range, fuel consumption (Ford may win on 91 octane, but is their engine as fuel efficient overall - dunno), reliability, longevity, etc.

It'll be interesing to see how they compare in these more esoteric areas beyond simple power output.

hi5.0

Nissan's (current) VQ doesn't have direct injection, right? If so, just wait till it does - that may change how the two V6 engines would compare.

Hollywood_North GT

It does not. Not presently. There is speculation, however, that the 3.7L version rumored for the '08 G35 coupe might get it.

TomServo92

It's tough to do a direct comparison until we start to see similar technologies employed in both engines. Until then we can only extrapolate. I do agree that Ford should have developed the D35 three or four years ago but that doesn't in any way take away from what appears to be an excellent design with tons of potential to match the VQ. Since Ward's put the D35 in the top ten engines list along side the VQ indicates they believe the same.