MARZ

This is probably a dumb question, but I'm curious. Has any variation of the Mustang -- whether it be a GT, GT500, etc -- been timed around the 'Ring?

max2000jp

I've never seen a time posted.

jsaylor

I recall the argument. And I still believe the Mustang will be the superior track car to the Camaro given what we know about the two vehicles. We know the Mustang will be lighter than the Chevy, and I base the above assertion on my belief that the Mustang GT will be at least 300lb lighter. I simply don't think the Camaro's IRS and added torque will be sufficient to offset that difference. And I don't think a 2011 Mustang GT will have any issues with the Cobalt SS either for that matter. We'll see.

As for the Cobalt SS, it's a phenomenal chassis GM wont allow to realize it's full potential with only the new, Turbo SS model coming close. Now, that car will unfortunately be replaced by what is, in effect, a Daewoo with a Bowtie. Somehow, I don't think the Cruize will be a step up.

GM is like the Minnesota Vikings of the early 90's. You know they have all the right ingredients, they just can't seem to find the right mix. And every time they get close, they throw in the towel and start back at zero.

max2000jp

Well the Cobalt SS is faster than a 2006 Mustang GT by a significant margin. In this test, Ford would need to find 8-10 seconds from 2006 to 2011 MY per lap. I don't see raw HP doing this. The 11' Mustang will need brake and suspension upgrades. Hopefully, Ford addresses that.

jsaylor

I don't disagree. Unfortunately, despite what I had hoped for we already know the 2010MY car seems unlikely to be a good indicator of what we can expect in terms of chassis tweaks for the 2011MY since most spy shots indicate carryover brakes for the GT. So, exactly what Ford will do with the brakes remains a mystery. I cannot imagine Ford would use the same binders we have on the current 300hp GT on one which is 100hp stouter and a bit heavier, so short of a total mental melt down they will evolve.....unfortunately we still have no idea just how they will evolve.

The suspension should work great. The Bullitt is already a meaningful improvement over the existing GT, throw in the changes and tuning improvements made since that basic setup was laid down, an even stiffer chassis, and the capacity for wider rubber and I think the car will handle extremely well. That said, I do think it is glaringly obvious that this is the SRA's last rodeo. What Ford has wrought from it is amazing, and I think reviewers will tout what they manage with the refresh to be even moreso, but beyond the S197 refresh I think the advantage gained in cost and simplicity will prove insufficient to keep it competitive.

Brakes are still my only worry.

Thomas S

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsch...ction_vehicles

bob

Y'know Ford could make a significant improvment in performance by offering a summer tire option. In my case the change from the stock M5/235 KDWS suspension to the FR3/255 KDW setup was good for a solid 15mph gain through one of my favorite corners going home.

max2000jp

Camaro Pricing is out:

Starting at $22.995 for the base and $30,995 for the SS.

stangfoeva

not bad, but ADMs will be killer

KatarHol

For awhile,but it will level off,probably by next fall,remember,Miatas sold for double sticker when they were new,it's normal.
This is awesome,i'm excited!

Moosetang

Think those will stick, or will they do a G8 bounce after one year?

Ice Hawk

Base being V6 right? What's the mid level? I thought there was a V8 between the SS and V6? I guess not. So... $31K for a 2010 Camero w/ 422HP and base luxuries. That makes me think that the 2011 Mustang w/ 400HP (speculated) with base GT (I guess Premium since I heard they are doing away with the Deluxe if I'm correct) will hit about $28,995. Or... maybe for marketing purposes, so they can say "under $30K, it'll be $29,995. But let's hope not. It would be better for Ford to be a solid $2K under the SS.

jsaylor

Camaro SS pricing is exactly where a lot of us expected it to be, north of 30k. And given what we know about both programs I would be willing to bet Ford would see a higher return on the revised 2011 S197 per unit if they left pricing as is (inflation considered), than GM is going to realize per unit with the Camaro given the prices above.

Also, a second year price bump hardly seems unlikely Moosetang, since both the G8 and the Kappa twins got one. If the 400+hp 2011 Mustang GT comes in under 28k in base trim GM is probably screwed.

FordBlueHeart

Rebates and ADMs DO count at this point! When you walk into a dealership and see the discounts offered on the Mustang versus the Challenger, do you simply shrug them off and say "the Challenger is only $2775 more than the Mustang!", no, you say holy crap! I can get the Mustang for how much less? I'm sure that the 2010 Mustang will also have ADMs and no rebates, but anyone with a brain can understand supply and demand. If they want the car that badly, they will pay for it or do a better job of shopping around and find a dealer willing to negotiate. Its called negotiating skills. Some people dont have the patience though. That means people are willing to pay extra for the visual updates. If you are looking at the performance aspect, then you have to ask yourself whether its worth it or not.

max2000jp

I think the 11' GT will be shy of 30K. The new engine and 6 speed manual will definetly add cost to the vehicle. I wouldn't doubt a starting cost of $29,999 for the 2011 GT.

FordBlueHeart

Thats $2000 more than a 2008 Premium GT including destination. I doubt it will be that much more.

MBK

Model:
Camaro LS -- $22,995 (MSRP)
Camaro 1LT -- $24,630 (MSRP)
Camaro 2LT -- $27,330 (MSRP)
Camaro 1SS -- $30,992 (MSRP)
Camaro 2SS -- $34,180 (MSRP)

Options:
Convenience and Connectivity w/ Automatic Transmission -- $665
Concenience and Connectivity w/ Manual Transmission -- $465
Interior Trim Package -- $500
RS Package w/ 1LT -- $1,750
RS Package w/ 2LT -- $1,450
RS Package w/ 1SS or 2SS -- $1,200
Carpeted Front -- $60
Engine Block Heater -- $75
Red Jewel Tint Premium Paint -- $295
Boston Acoustics System -- $495
Compact Spare Tire and Wheel -- $150
Cyber Gray Metallic Stripes -- $395
White Stripes -- $395
Power Sunroof -- $900
Transmission, Automatic 6-speed -- $995
19" Polished Aluminum Wheel w/ 1LT -- $720
19" Polished Aluminum Wheel w/ 2LT -- $470
20" Polished Aluminum Wheel -- $470

List from podcast on Camaroz28.com

MBK

for 23K you get a bare bones car with a great engine. for 31K you get the V8 minus leather and stereo.

jsaylor

I dunno, if Ford is smart I think they could make like really, really hard on Chevy here. Ford bragged often and loudly about the fact that the S197 was a very profitable car when it came out in 2005. Time only stands to make profitability of the car that much more attractive, and the evolutionary nature of the 2010+ cars means those benefits will largely carryover. For an example of this look at how a similar situation with the C5 to C6 evolution, a change which was greater in terms of scope than the S197 upgrade no less, allowed GM to actually lower the price of the C6 compared to the C5 which it replaced.

I cannot speak to what Ford will do, but I don't doubt for a minute that Ford could potentially leave pricing exactly where it is and still have a very profitable car on their hands even after the more expensive DOHC engine and six speed tranny come into play for 2011. And even a scenario which sees the mustang undergo a small price hike for 2011 effectively leads to the same end. I think there is a real possibility that the 2011 Mustang GT could be a faster, more fuel efficient, and noticeably cheaper car than the rival Camaro is set to be. Right now, that could be very bad for the General.

At this point it is impossible to say whether or not Ford will take advantage of the opportunity, but it seems to me Chevy left the door wide open with the Camaro. It will be interesting to see how all of this actually plays out.

97GT03SVT

Wow, the new camaro ss sure makes the Bullitt look like a complete rip off. Ford needs to give us a 400hp 5.0 for either the same or less MSRP than the current car.

If i remember correctly didn't the 05' pretty much cost the same as the 04'?