2014+ News sorta...re: IRS or SRA
1/9/09, 11:17 PM
#41
THE RED FLASH ------ Master-Moderator
Really ? Well I guess you haven't heard, GM has officially delayed the launch for the 2010 Camaro. Here's the thread link posted below.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476446
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476446
1/10/09, 08:04 AM
#42
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Really ? Well I guess you haven't heard, GM has officially delayed the launch for the 2010 Camaro. Here's the thread link posted below.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476446
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476446
I have a feeling this delay has more to do with the Camaro's part suppliers going belly up more than anything else.
Last edited by 97GT03SVT; 1/10/09 at 10:26 AM.
1/10/09, 01:28 PM
#43
Delaying the production by one month hardly proves anything. I hate to say it but the Camaro is the better overall performance car, even if people have to wait until March for production. To be honest I think it was a stupid idea having the Camaro launch in the middle of winter anyway.
I have a feeling this delay has more to do with the Camaro's part suppliers going belly up more than anything else.
I have a feeling this delay has more to do with the Camaro's part suppliers going belly up more than anything else.
It's a bit more dire and telling than that. Officially production has only been delayed one month, but GM is already saying orders already placed wont be filled until October, and thus far those orders only constitute about 10,000 cars. Even taking the rather lopsided demand for the V8 model into consideration we are still looking at a scenario where GM is only talking about being able to build 20,000 cars max in seven months. To put that into perspective that isn't even a hundred cars per shift. If that seems a bit fishy that is likely because it is.
A production facility like the one in Canada which will produce the Camaro is enormously expensive to operate. Running such a facility at such a snails pace would constitute a huge loss of money without exception and makes no sense on it's face since GM should have a pretty good handle on how to run an assembly line by this point and certainly doesn't have the money to burn. The more likely story is that they expect to have even more problems with suppliers, assets, etc. and are trying to hedge their bets by promising October delivery.
As for GM's issues with the Camaro being supplier related. Of late there has been a great deal of buzz regarding suppliers for both GM and Chrysler demanding that those companies effectively pay up front. Put simply they no longer have any credit to speak of, either because they haven't been paying their bills, their suppliers find it unlikely that they will continue to be able to pay their bills, or both.
In this instance a bankrupt GM supplier is refusing to turn over GM owned equipment. Why on earth would any company heading headlong for bankruptcy refuse to return GM''s proper? Holding the same cannot possibly benefit them at this point and will actually cost them more money. My guess? Could it possibly be that GM owes them money? Could it be that GM is losing their credit and credibility among suppliers because they aren't paying their bills? Could this little, tier one supplier now be bankrupt because GM wasn't paying them what they were owed? And could they be holding that equipment until such time as GM pays them said money owed?
It seems extremely unlikely that GM is a simple, hapless victim here. I would bet dollars to donuts GM has gone well out of their way to make almost all of their own misery.
1/10/09, 04:07 PM
#44
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It's a bit more dire and telling than that. Officially production has only been delayed one month, but GM is already saying orders already placed wont be filled until October, and thus far those orders only constitute about 10,000 cars. Even taking the rather lopsided demand for the V8 model into consideration we are still looking at a scenario where GM is only talking about being able to build 20,000 cars max in seven months. To put that into perspective that isn't even a hundred cars per shift. If that seems a bit fishy that is likely because it is.
A production facility like the one in Canada which will produce the Camaro is enormously expensive to operate. Running such a facility at such a snails pace would constitute a huge loss of money without exception and makes no sense on it's face since GM should have a pretty good handle on how to run an assembly line by this point and certainly doesn't have the money to burn. The more likely story is that they expect to have even more problems with suppliers, assets, etc. and are trying to hedge their bets by promising October delivery.
As for GM's issues with the Camaro being supplier related. Of late there has been a great deal of buzz regarding suppliers for both GM and Chrysler demanding that those companies effectively pay up front. Put simply they no longer have any credit to speak of, either because they haven't been paying their bills, their suppliers find it unlikely that they will continue to be able to pay their bills, or both.
In this instance a bankrupt GM supplier is refusing to turn over GM owned equipment. Why on earth would any company heading headlong for bankruptcy refuse to return GM''s proper? Holding the same cannot possibly benefit them at this point and will actually cost them more money. My guess? Could it possibly be that GM owes them money? Could it be that GM is losing their credit and credibility among suppliers because they aren't paying their bills? Could this little, tier one supplier now be bankrupt because GM wasn't paying them what they were owed? And could they be holding that equipment until such time as GM pays them said money owed?
It seems extremely unlikely that GM is a simple, hapless victim here. I would bet dollars to donuts GM has gone well out of their way to make almost all of their own misery.
A production facility like the one in Canada which will produce the Camaro is enormously expensive to operate. Running such a facility at such a snails pace would constitute a huge loss of money without exception and makes no sense on it's face since GM should have a pretty good handle on how to run an assembly line by this point and certainly doesn't have the money to burn. The more likely story is that they expect to have even more problems with suppliers, assets, etc. and are trying to hedge their bets by promising October delivery.
As for GM's issues with the Camaro being supplier related. Of late there has been a great deal of buzz regarding suppliers for both GM and Chrysler demanding that those companies effectively pay up front. Put simply they no longer have any credit to speak of, either because they haven't been paying their bills, their suppliers find it unlikely that they will continue to be able to pay their bills, or both.
In this instance a bankrupt GM supplier is refusing to turn over GM owned equipment. Why on earth would any company heading headlong for bankruptcy refuse to return GM''s proper? Holding the same cannot possibly benefit them at this point and will actually cost them more money. My guess? Could it possibly be that GM owes them money? Could it be that GM is losing their credit and credibility among suppliers because they aren't paying their bills? Could this little, tier one supplier now be bankrupt because GM wasn't paying them what they were owed? And could they be holding that equipment until such time as GM pays them said money owed?
It seems extremely unlikely that GM is a simple, hapless victim here. I would bet dollars to donuts GM has gone well out of their way to make almost all of their own misery.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476067
1/11/09, 09:10 AM
#45
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Exactly. I don't see how anyone can say the Camaro will be the superior car when, currently, it's only vaporware. Who knows if this car will ever come to fruition? As jasaylor stated, there are several pending roadblocks for GM before they will be able to actually release this car.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476067
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=476067
I spoke to a Chevy rep at the New England Auto Show last night and I was told that a fully loaded SS is about $39,000. He also told me that a Z28 model with the Z06's 7.0 is very likely in 11'. I found this odd because none of the Ford reps would comment on the possible introduction of a 5.0 next year.
This car's development is complete, perhaps production numbers will be lowered.... but this car will be made. Even if worst case scenario GM goes out of business, another automaker will pick up he peaces and produce this car.
1/11/09, 09:46 AM
#46
I spoke to a Chevy rep at the New England Auto Show last night and I was told that a fully loaded SS is about $39,000. He also told me that a Z28 model with the Z06's 7.0 is very likely in 11'. I found this odd because none of the Ford reps would comment on the possible introduction of a 5.0 next year.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
I would think a SS would be the one selling closer to $39K. Point being that sometimes Reps don't know ****.
1/11/09, 09:49 AM
#47
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I said it would be the superior performing car, not the superior car. That is just a fact in both V8 and base model trim it offers a lot more power, brembo brakes, 6 gears and IRS and to be honest a newer platform. The Camaro had the luxury of seeing what Ford did with the Mustang and attempt to better it. Ford will offer a lot of unique stuff, be more customizable and will cost less.
I spoke to a Chevy rep at the New England Auto Show last night and I was told that a fully loaded SS is about $39,000. He also told me that a Z28 model with the Z06's 7.0 is very likely in 11'. I found this odd because none of the Ford reps would comment on the possible introduction of a 5.0 next year.
This car's development is complete, perhaps production numbers will be lowered.... but this car will be made. Even if worst case scenario GM goes out of business, another automaker will pick up he peaces and produce this car.
I spoke to a Chevy rep at the New England Auto Show last night and I was told that a fully loaded SS is about $39,000. He also told me that a Z28 model with the Z06's 7.0 is very likely in 11'. I found this odd because none of the Ford reps would comment on the possible introduction of a 5.0 next year.
This car's development is complete, perhaps production numbers will be lowered.... but this car will be made. Even if worst case scenario GM goes out of business, another automaker will pick up he peaces and produce this car.
j/kI believe we ought to know better than to jump to conclusions, though, regarding vaporware. I remember how everyone dismissed the Mustang vs. the Challenger; it, too, has the bigger engine, bigger brakes, IRS, blah blah... From all of the caparisons I've read, the Challenger was actually outperformed by the Bullitt in terms of handling! Acceleration was very close between the two cars, too The Challenger's mass, obviously, did the car in in these tests; I believe the same will hold true for the Camaro. I believe that the Challenger and Camaro need these 400+-horsepower engines, big Brembo brakes and IRS because of the added mass when compared to the Mustang.
And, by the way, I wouldn't put too much credence into what a company "Rep" had to tell you. I remember a few years back at the Chicago Auto Show, I was assured that the 2005 Mustang GT would come complete with a 5.4L V8 and IRS. You see how that turned out...
1/11/09, 09:50 AM
#48
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Weird . . . Hatchman was informed that a Loaded V6 would be $39,000.00.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
I would think a SS would be the one selling closer to $39K. Point being that sometimes Reps don't know ****.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
I would think a SS would be the one selling closer to $39K. Point being that sometimes Reps don't know ****.
1/11/09, 10:39 AM
#49
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I wasn't mentioning anyone in particular, 97GT03SVT; don't flatter yourself. j/k
I believe we ought to know better than to jump to conclusions, though, regarding vaporware. I remember how everyone dismissed the Mustang vs. the Challenger; it, too, has the bigger engine, bigger brakes, IRS, blah blah... From all of the caparisons I've read, the Challenger was actually outperformed by the Bullitt in terms of handling! Acceleration was very close between the two cars, too The Challenger's mass, obviously, did the car in in these tests; I believe the same will hold true for the Camaro. I believe that the Challenger and Camaro need these 400+-horsepower engines, big Brembo brakes and IRS because of the added mass when compared to the Mustang.
And, by the way, I wouldn't put too much credence into what a company "Rep" had to tell you. I remember a few years back at the Chicago Auto Show, I was assured that the 2005 Mustang GT would come complete with a 5.4L V8 and IRS. You see how that turned out...
j/kI believe we ought to know better than to jump to conclusions, though, regarding vaporware. I remember how everyone dismissed the Mustang vs. the Challenger; it, too, has the bigger engine, bigger brakes, IRS, blah blah... From all of the caparisons I've read, the Challenger was actually outperformed by the Bullitt in terms of handling! Acceleration was very close between the two cars, too The Challenger's mass, obviously, did the car in in these tests; I believe the same will hold true for the Camaro. I believe that the Challenger and Camaro need these 400+-horsepower engines, big Brembo brakes and IRS because of the added mass when compared to the Mustang.
And, by the way, I wouldn't put too much credence into what a company "Rep" had to tell you. I remember a few years back at the Chicago Auto Show, I was assured that the 2005 Mustang GT would come complete with a 5.4L V8 and IRS. You see how that turned out...
The Camaro was built from the ground up to compete with the Mustang. It is heavier than the Mustang yet lighter than the Challenger. The SS puts out about the same HP as the top of the line SRT8 Challenger that runs the 1/4 in 13.00 flat. The R/T simply isn't in the same leauge as the SS. I'll go as far to say that the Camaro SS might dip into the 12s. I'm thinking anywhere between 12.7-13.00.
As far as the possibilty of putting an LS7 into a Camaro I say it has a better chance than the Mustang getting the 5.0. Hear me out on this, GM has never been shy about putting it's best engines into every car imaginable. GM has used Vette motors in the GTO, CTS-V, Trailblazer SS... Actually the new CTS-V has a detuned ZR1 motor with 556HP in a chassis similar to that of the new Camaro. All the components are their for GM to do this and it would be a highly profitable car for them. Think about it Ford was able to sell GT500s how much above MSRP? I just have to reiterate GM having the Corvette as it's halo car has spawned so much high performance in GM's other models, its too bad Ford no longer produces the Ford GT.
1/11/09, 10:45 AM
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Thats total BS the base V6 starts at $23,000. It is now known that we won't see a convertible until at least 11'. How on earth can the V6 chalk up to $16,000 in options? The SS starts at $31,000, it is a base level V8 adding up to $8000 in goodies is far more likely. This person clearly misheard what he reported.
Like I was saying before the Camaro will be the better overall performing car but it's gonna cost you. I'd rather spend the extra cash and get a GT500 over a loaded SS, despite the fact that the SS will probably run closer to it than the GT model.
Like I was saying before the Camaro will be the better overall performing car but it's gonna cost you. I'd rather spend the extra cash and get a GT500 over a loaded SS, despite the fact that the SS will probably run closer to it than the GT model.
Last edited by 97GT03SVT; 1/11/09 at 10:55 AM.
1/11/09, 11:17 AM
#51
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I thought i read somewhere that the Challenger R/T will get close to 400HP in '11 and the SRT8 will be close to 500 as there has been so many complaints about the lack of HP compared to the weight of the car.
Again the best thing about the Mustang is the price for the performance you get. That can all go down hill in '11 though when the 5.0 comes out. It looks like the best bet is to wait until '11 to see what all pans out with all 3 cars.
Again the best thing about the Mustang is the price for the performance you get. That can all go down hill in '11 though when the 5.0 comes out. It looks like the best bet is to wait until '11 to see what all pans out with all 3 cars.
1/11/09, 12:17 PM
#52
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Thats total BS the base V6 starts at $23,000. It is now known that we won't see a convertible until at least 11'. How on earth can the V6 chalk up to $16,000 in options? The SS starts at $31,000, it is a base level V8 adding up to $8000 in goodies is far more likely. This person clearly misheard what he reported.
Like I was saying before the Camaro will be the better overall performing car but it's gonna cost you. I'd rather spend the extra cash and get a GT500 over a loaded SS, despite the fact that the SS will probably run closer to it than the GT model.
Like I was saying before the Camaro will be the better overall performing car but it's gonna cost you. I'd rather spend the extra cash and get a GT500 over a loaded SS, despite the fact that the SS will probably run closer to it than the GT model.
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
1/11/09, 01:17 PM
#53
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Maybe this is the same rep that told you the 2011 Camaro is getting the 7.0L LS7?
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...6&postcount=28
I don't understand why this seems impossible to you guys. GM already produces both the LS7 and the supercharged ZR1 motor. Don't forget that GM over the past couple years has put Vette motors in just about anything that can fit one. Seeing a 556HP Cadillac CTS-V makes me think that a 500+ Camaro will be built to compete with the GT500. I shudder to think of this potential car's capabilities since the CTS-V is a better sports car than the GT500 (look up the stats) I see this as a good thing, now the Mustang isn't the onl game in town and negotiating prices for car, ecspecially SE cars like the GT500 should be made much easier.
1/11/09, 02:00 PM
#54
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I bet we see an LS7 powered Camaro or supercharged 6.2 before we see a $39,000 V6 Camaro.
I don't understand why this seems impossible to you guys. GM already produces both the LS7 and the supercharged ZR1 motor. Don't forget that GM over the past couple years has put Vette motors in just about anything that can fit one. Seeing a 556HP Cadillac CTS-V makes me think that a 500+ Camaro will be built to compete with the GT500. I shudder to think of this potential car's capabilities since the CTS-V is a better sports car than the GT500 (look up the stats) I see this as a good thing, now the Mustang isn't the onl game in town and negotiating prices for car, ecspecially SE cars like the GT500 should be made much easier.
I don't understand why this seems impossible to you guys. GM already produces both the LS7 and the supercharged ZR1 motor. Don't forget that GM over the past couple years has put Vette motors in just about anything that can fit one. Seeing a 556HP Cadillac CTS-V makes me think that a 500+ Camaro will be built to compete with the GT500. I shudder to think of this potential car's capabilities since the CTS-V is a better sports car than the GT500 (look up the stats) I see this as a good thing, now the Mustang isn't the onl game in town and negotiating prices for car, ecspecially SE cars like the GT500 should be made much easier.
And, until I actually see a Camaro in a showroom, or on the streets, this car doesn't actually exist outside of several prototypes. At the rate it's going, the Job1 Camaro will have to contend with whatever Ford has in store for the 2011 Mustang, and whatever Chrysler has planned for the Challenger.
1/11/09, 06:43 PM
#55
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I'm not saying it's impossible. I just question your "Rep's" credentials. Why would a GM rep be so candid regarding future products? If that were the case, why hasn't GM already announced this program since, from what I'm hearing, their reps have been given the green light to talk about future products. Again, I've met several reps at several auto shows. The majority of them don't know s**t (again, I was guaranteed a 5.4L V8 Mustang GT with IRS for 2005).
And, until I actually see a Camaro in a showroom, or on the streets, this car doesn't actually exist outside of several prototypes. At the rate it's going, the Job1 Camaro will have to contend with whatever Ford has in store for the 2011 Mustang, and whatever Chrysler has planned for the Challenger.
And, until I actually see a Camaro in a showroom, or on the streets, this car doesn't actually exist outside of several prototypes. At the rate it's going, the Job1 Camaro will have to contend with whatever Ford has in store for the 2011 Mustang, and whatever Chrysler has planned for the Challenger.
1/11/09, 08:17 PM
#56
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I agree most reps, like sales men try to tell you what you want to hear. I agree he is probably just speculating on internet rumors like some here do about the 5.0. As far as the Camaro making production all I have heard is that it will be delayed by a month and it will still see production by this Spring. Who knows though, this upcoming Camaro can be like Guns n' Roses Chinese Democracy album lol!
Last edited by red pony; 1/11/09 at 08:20 PM.
1/11/09, 10:17 PM
#57
This arguement reminds me of something I made a couple years ago....
1/12/09, 03:30 PM
#59
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As of today, when is the Camaro officially slated for release?
1/12/09, 05:28 PM
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Seeing how the 2010 Mustang is essentially a reskin of the current Mustang, the pony car that avoided an 8-9 year hiatus (assuming the Camaro comes out in time for MY 2010-11), I bet we'll see it before the Camaro. Like I said before, I'm willing to bet that the Job1 Camaro will have to deal with whatever Ford has in store for the 2011 Mustang.
As of today, when is the Camaro officially slated for release?
As of today, when is the Camaro officially slated for release?