Hollywood_North GT

The 3-Series Bimmer is BMW's bread-and-butter car; it's what keeps the company running. And most of that model's sales are accounted for by North American buyers. An entry 328 is not that expensive - not in my book. But then I guess it depends upon which socio-economic sandbox you're playing in.

The larger point is that they're Euro styled, and they sell, even to entry-level buyers. There is absolutely NO concrete evidence to suggest that North American buyers dislike European styling across the board, or that they won't buy a car because it's "too European" looking, unless it happens to be a "luxury brand". If North American buyers were head-over-heels for North American design, Ford and GM would not be facing a swan dive into the shallow end of an empty pool right now.

You're proceeding from a flawed argument. What did Ford ultimately DO with all that good will it had built amongst the public with the Taurus back in the '80s (notice you're still in the '80s)?! They up and squandered it, falling into a state of corporate complacency and stagnation with the model. And after that, they focused almost exclusively on trucks while allowing their entire North American passenger car division to essentially wither to such a state that it's no wonder the public has no faith in them anymore.

Meanwhile, no need to revisit what the Japanese were doing during the same period. We all know.

The rest is history. So current Fusion sales vs. Taurus sales "back in the day," makes for an invalid comparison.

Forget them? Why? It proves my point that VW is a company without any real identity here in North America.

Precisely why quality Ford compacts like the new global Focus and Fiesta that are coming ought to do well.

If they don't, it will have NOTHING to do with Americans hating Euro styling and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that the company squandered its reputation so badly with the buying public that they would rather buy a Korean crapstermobile than a quality-engineered Euro Ford.

But as I said, I don't think that will happen. If the current '08 Focus is selling well, imagine how well a higher quality, more attractive Focus will sell in another 18 months. I mean, the pictures speak for themselves >>

Zastava_101

328i is a pretty expensive car in my book especially compared to other mid-size cars on the market. Base 328i = $33,000, base Accord V6 (w/ 38 more horsepower) = $26,000.

No, I'm not comparing Fusion sales vs Taurus sales back from the 1980s. I was talking about Taurus up until 2004 or so when Ford decided to discontinue it. Even then Taurus sales were 300,000-350,000 which is a number that Fusion will never achieve. I know that a lot of Tauruses sales were fleet sales, but Taurus was still outselling Fusion 2:1.

OK, we don't have to forget Phaeton. Other than VW badge, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that car. Buyers were getting a Audi A8 for a price thousands less.
If you wanna look at the picture that way then I guess Saturn is also a company without identity. Not long ago they were GM's entry company, now all the sudden they're above Chevy.

I used Accent's example to show you that even junk cars, if they are economical and cheap, can have their part of the market. Which brings me to my original question: why isn't Volkswagen Rabbit selling? It's cheap, it's economical and it's better quality than Accent. So why is VW selling over 400,000 Golfs in Europe each year, but can't sell even 30,000 of them in the States?

Hollywood_North GT

Like I said, I guess it depends upon one's perspective.

I explained this in my post. And you just reaffirmed it above: Ford was selling 300K to 350K Taurus' a year, and what did they do? They cancelled their cash cow and effectively walked away from the automobile market in favor of trucks. And you wonder why Fusion can't keep pace with Taurus sales? It's called blowing off your customer base.

Yeah, and...?

You asked me to answer that question, and I did. Why do you keep asking it over and over again? Presumably it's because you want someone to agree with your assertion that VWs don't sell over here because North American buyers don't like the way Volkswagen cars look.

Your whole argument seems to go like this: European cars will not sell well in North America because Americans and Canadians don't fancy European cars, UNLESS they're luxury brands or models. And what I'm saying is that you're only offering flimsy and anecdotal evidence to support your hypothesis.

Zastava_101

You answered me why Volkswagens in general aren't selling, but now I'm specifically asking about Golf/Rabbit.
Just to make sure that I understand this: Golf/Rabbit is not selling because of identity problems and poor quality?
"Identity problems" might be a reason why Phaeton, Touareg 2 and maybe even Passat aren't selling, but it's not a reason why Golf/Rabbit isn't selling.

History will repeat, other than original Volkswagen Beetle no non-luxury, average-Joe's European car was ever successful in the USA. And there are plenty of them that failed.

Vermillion06

So does that mean that outside the US, other buyers in other countries don't care about VW's questionable reliability, since they sell so well everywhere else?

Vermillion06

That's certainly the way it looks. A lot of people who are buying the BMWs, Mercedes, or Porsches in the US are buying for the prestige that is associated with owning one of these makes. "Look at me! I've got a BMW/Mercedes/Porsche/whatever ! I'm a young upwardly-mobile professional and a Very Important Person! Not like you peons in your Fords and Chevrolets!"

But in VW's case, could it be that nobody's buying, or maybe they aren't willing to put up with poor reliablilty (real or perceived), because VW just doesn't have the prestige? The Saturn Astra doesn't that prestige either. Even though we are told by enthusiast magazines and blogs how great these cars are, the public doesn't seem to care.

The Rabbit should be a big seller in the US-- it seems to have all the right attributes, but it's just not selling.

And even though "enthusiasts" think that just having cars in the US that are identical to Europe will fix everything for Ford, there is a big difference between what the general public (not enthusiasts) wants in US and what the general public wants in Europe --different roads, different needs, different tastes, different markets. So localization of products is a good idea.

Laser98

I have no idea how VW's are perceived in other countries, thus I am unable to answer your question.

Zastava_101

In Europe it used to be good. Majority of Volkswagens from late 1970s and 1980s had a very good reliability. They can last 20 years easily and over 300,000 km.

However, newer models are not that good, many people are complaining.

Hollywood_North GT

Boiling down your argument to the crux of the matter, the real question then is this: What DO North American buyers want? And this may be a difficult question to answer, since the United States is a potpourri of mixed regions and tastes; what someone in rural Missouri finds attractive may differ wildly from what someone in Manhattan or LA finds appealing.

Breaking it down even further: What do the various groups in America want from Ford? Apparently, Honda and Toyota have figured out the formula. Hyundai is figuring it out now. Those aforementioned "prestige" brands have figured it out.

Perhaps Ford's strategy should be to offer that European flavor, robustness and "snobbery" for less money than what traditional Euro "prestige" makes ask. More precisely, take the Mondeo. It is widely regarded in European trades as a better overall car than the 3-Series, for less cash. Perhaps that's how Ford should be marketing vehicles like that over here. Of course, for that strategy to succeed and be financially viable, they need to take the design and engineering specs and build them over here, too.

But again, here's the common denominator: GM and Ford's sales keep circling the drain. Is it the quality? Not so much in recent years. Is it the "perception of quality"? No question that's a big factor. Is it that jilted customers just aren't interested anymore and have moved on? Most probably in a lot of cases.

So what do you do? Personally, I think you do what Ford is doing right now. There's really nothing else they CAN do, since they're down to their last stack of chips and there's no way to be certain what the dealer is holding. But Ford needs to make **** sure it markets the sh*t out of its new global strategy when these cars arrive; no more dumb, gimmicky ads.

Zastava_101

American buyers want smaller cars, but not from Europe.

Bringing a Fiesta or Focus or whatever from Europe won't solve Ford's problems, just like it didn't solve GM's problems with whole Saturn-Opel thing.

Hollywood_North GT

American automakers are not renowned for making good quality, compact 4-bangers. Goes all the way back to the days of the Chevy Vega, which, sadly, I remember all too well. So does most of the rest of the public.

The Europeans (and to a lesser extent the Japanese) have the best small cars in the world and have been building them for a MUCH longer period of time, due to higher fuel costs and narrow roads over smaller geographic spans. It's what they do best, and they do it better than us. Period.

If Ford brings the Global (aka Euro) Fiesta over here - and it's a great car - it will sell. If it doesn't sell, it will have NOTHING to do with the fact that it's made in Europe, Narnia or on the moon, and everything to do with the fact that the public is no longer interested in giving Ford a chance anymore...because they've moved on.

And you can take that to the bank.

Zastava_101

I can tell you right away that sales of next global-Focus in the USA will be far lower than current Focus. Current USA Focus might be a joke, but hey, at least it's selling for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if that reason is Sync, low price or high gas prices - it's selling. And that's a proof that USA Focus can be a successful car without Euro Focus.
Fiesta won't be failure, but I don't expect sales higher than 50,000.

I lived in Europe and the USA long enough to see how different the customers are. You just can't build a same vehicles for both markets because customers are very different. If Ford thinks that their Euro lineup will save them in the USA - they'll end up like a Plymouth and a Oldsmobile.

Hollywood_North GT

And when the next Focus gets here - assuming Ford N/A doesn't botch it somehow - it will sell even better.

Zastava_101

Time will tell, but I have a bad feeling about this.

Louie

I was reading in a post above about the "entry level BMW 328". WHAT?! Maybe that's the main problem with the US market, the buyers' mentality. Did you know that the actual entry-level 3-Series is the 316? And I'm sure it would perform just as well in the 8am traffic jam as the 328, but apparently the sub 2-liter engines will never find a market in the States. Even if they outperformed a V6 Mustang....

I bet if Ford decides to start selling the EU Focus and the Mondeo in the US, the smallest engine available will be the 2.5L Duratec. I really hope to lose.