V10

I think the drop in Mustang sales is more due to market conditions and not the Mustang itself. With the hurt at the pump and in the housing market I think a lot of people have less $$ to spend on toys. Many 2 door sporty cars are toys and not daily drivers (My Stang is a toy).

350Z sales are in the toilet, down 28% YTD & 29% in April.
G35 sales down 39% YTD, although we can blame some of the drop on customers waiting for the 2008 G37.

Toyota doesn't break out Solara sales separately so we don't know how it's doing but we do know that sales of the Lexus SC430 have tanked down 34% YTD.

As a comparison, the Mustangs 17% YTD sales drop is not that bad.
The Camaro may be too late to market and find it tough going when it arrives.

Hollywood_North GT

That's what I said >> Also, Mustang will be especially hurt by rising gas prices at the pump...

I agree. My point was that diehard muscle car shoppers are likely holding out to see what Challenger and Camaro actually offer in production guise. That demographic might actually have purchased a Mustang this year were it not for Dodge and the General's announcements of their own forthcoming muscle cars.

bob

Aren't the Camaro and Challenger supposed to be upscale in relation to the mustang? I could possibly see people holding out for the Camaro (its supposed to be priced a few thousand more) but the Challenger is supposed to arrive as a premium offering in its first year (6.???? with 500+ hp, 6-speed trans, etc). I don't see the Challenger priced in the high twenties to low thirties where mustang is at, rather I see it in pre ADM GT500 territory (which might be a sad comment on dealer greed in and of itself if people are holding out simply on the chance that DCX might be offering a car that equals or betters the GT500's performance at a lower price point).

Hollywood_North GT

Sure, but nothing's finalized yet. But since they're ALL competing muscle cars, there will be people who simply want to wait and see what their money will buy them in this segment, before committing to any one vehicle.

V10

The die hard musch car shoppers is a limited demographic. I'd like to see what the Mustang V6 vs GT sales have been over the last 4 months. If the drop was primarily omd GTs it would support your "waiting for Camaro & Challenger theory". If the drop is primarily in V6 Stangs it would say either the 2 dr market is soft of the customers have bailed on the V6 Mustang because it no longer represents what the market wants in light of rising gas prices and and the ever increasing demand for luxury features. If the drop in Mustang sales is balanced between V6 & V8 it would be harder to draw any conclusions other than the 2dr market is shrinking.

Hollywood_North GT

I don't see the 2-door market shrinking at all, frankly. Nor do I believe that the Mustang is the victim of one factor here; rather a number of circumstances are combining to impact sales, chiefly >>

- GT sales being hurt by fuel prices and anticipation over impending competition;

- V6 Mustang sales overall being hurt by an uncompetitive range of features, primarily powertrain, creature comforts and interior quality - all of which the Japanese do better in the V6 demographic;

- Given both Mustangs' (GT & V6) market demographic (sporty, fun), three years on, the Mustang design may be getting too familiar to an increasingly fickle buying public in this segment who are always on the hunt for "the next greatest thing." Buyers for cars like this tend to be less concerned with practicallity and more concerned with emotional fullfillment.

V10

Then what is your explaination as to why 2 door sales for virtually every model and brand (other than real high end cars) have dropped significantly in the last 6 months?

Hollywood_North GT

Stats...?

What's your explanation for the fact that more and more manufacturers are currently - or soon will be - introducing new coupes?

V10

I already gave you some stats:

Don't know what manufactures you'r ereferring to as introducing more coupes other than Chevy & Dodge. As I've already said, GM & Crapster have missed the market window, both the new Camaro & Challenger will be sales failures.

Hollywood_North GT

- Hyundai's forthcoming V8 coupe...

- Infiniti's refreshed G37 coupe...

- Nissan's forthcoming GT-R coupe...

- Lexus' LF-A coupe...

- A coupe version of the IS350 is in the works...

- Toyota's Supra is rumored to return...

- A coupe version of Cadillac's new CTS is in the works...

- BMW's current 3-series coupe and forthcoming M3...

- Audi's new A5 coupe...

- Honda's forthcoming, all-new Accord coupe...

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

V10

Sorry, but I don't get the point. A good part of what you listed are current vehicles not anything new. Refreshes of existing cars don't count, nor do rumors.

If overall sales of 2 doors are still dropping, seems like a bunch of auto companies are making bad product decisions. Of couse the main purpose of many of those models are to generate show room traffic for customers who are buying 4 doors & SUVs.

AFBLUE

Hollywood_North GT

Yeah, I think you do. My list above spells it out in black and white. I think you just like to argue.

Sure, and a good part of what I listed are all new as well. All new AND refreshes count as a healthy coupe market in my book.

V10

Although I always enjoy a good argument, I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Everything I've read about sales #s says the 2 door market is hurting. If manufacturs are bringing out new 2 door models into a sinking market they are guilty of bad management.

If the 2 door market is so hot, why are Mustang sales sagging?
In 2000, 202,990 Mustangs were sold in the US
In 2006, 165,762 Mustangs were sold in the US

So far in 2007 Mustang sales are hurting, down 17% from 2006. Unless things suddenly improve Ford will sell only about 142,000 Mustangs in 2007, which would be down 30% from 2000.

Also you seem to be ignoring the sales #s I've posted on the 350Z and G35 coupe.

Hollywood_North GT

I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I just believe your facts are largely mitigated by the list I provided above. I don't think that ALL those companies are guilty of bad management (that would be highly unlikely); I merely think your assertions represent a blip, as I stated before.

htwag

It's got to be the $$$$ of gas. Where are all the Ford hybrids? Wonder what the new Focus will do for sales?

hi5.0

1) Somewhat true. But some of the 2-doors in this discussion are due for a re-design or update. 2) Ford's hybrids are in the same place as their other bold new products . 3) Based on looks and the chassis, the "new" Focus probably won't do much.

V10

Again I see that list of new / update 2 doors as signs of bad management. The auto companies have always operated "monkey see monkey do." Whenever one company has a successful product eg. Ford Mustang, all the other companies have to jump in with competitive products. The competitive products then proliferate so greatly and the market gets so segmented it is ultimately destroyed.

A stunning example of this is the 1965 Mustang. It was a huge success for Ford that everyone jumped in the fight to try to take away Mustang sales. Eventually the entire market collapsed. If it weren't for a few crazy Mustang fans, even the Mustang would have died in the 1980s and become a FWD economy car.

If you want I could go on and on with similar examples in other market segments like mini-vans. Note how Ford & GM have abandoned the mini-van market and only the originator Chryser is able to stay in that market segment.

So today it's Deja-Vu all over again. The S197 Mustang has gotten so much visibility and press coverage, that all the other manufacturers, US and Asian have to jump into the party. Their motivation is primarily to hurt the Mustang as if they have any inkling of how the auto business works they know it will be impossible for them to make any profits by stealing some Mustang sales out of an overall declining market segment. Today the Mustang sells 165,000 / year, not 500,000 a year as it did int the 60s. Most of those 2 door cars on your list that actually make it into production will be market flops and profit losers for their respective companies.

Hollywood_North GT

I see. So suddenly your so much smarter than ALL of those other automakers I listed, is that it?

V10

No, not suddenly, I always have been smarter than ALL of those auto makers you listed.