All this doom and gloom . GM and Ford are going through serious woes for one reason or another, (actually a combination of very many different factors all of which no one here fully knows) and yet everyone has the answer but the top execs, and thousands of analysts, marketers, share holders etc, that work at both? I enjoy livery debate but honestly doesn't this get long in the tooth? It may sound a little pointed but honestly I find it hard to believe everyone but the right one always know the answer.

You can spew all you want about who lost more for what reason etc but the bottom line is they are in it to move product and with this product try to squeeze a profit. As of the latest reports none, including the great almighty Toyota has done both. Sure they are raking in the profits as of now but last 2 reports I have seen sales were down the last couple of segments. GM has accounting woes but has had a steady sales increase. Ford has accounting woes and had a sales slump. Yet this is somehow good news to Ford and bad for GM? Its bad for all involved. Until one is making a steady increase of sales and profits there is no good for one and bad for the other. I fail to see any sense in that line of thought no matter how you squeeze it.

I see your point that they lowered their loss but thats it. They have a couple of segments with a sales increase but still an overall loss. GM is just the opposite. It doesn't matter how they cook the books to fix the loss unless they figure how to increase sales they will be forever loosing money. At best they can pull even. I'm not saying GM is sailing pretty because they are definately not but they have spent tons of money on new models that are selling well and many more are on the way (Beat, Camaro, Impala, Flex fuel SUV's to name just a few in this market only). They are actually increasing sales volume globally and the export segment is actually profiting. The home front is the biggest downfall. Will a bunch of new models help this situation? Who knows. You and I do not. If sales of Ford are hurting now what are they going to do when the Camaro and Challenger hit the streets and pull sales away form the Mustang. What are they going to do if the Malibu is as successful as the CTS (122% increase in sales for Caddy BTW) and pulls sales from the Taurus. GM is about to be the first to sell 1 million in China's market. Their biggest drawback is the domestic market, as their global market is looking very good.

I want to see Ford and GM (honestly I do believe it or not) dominate Toyota, Nissan, Mazda etc in every segment. But overhead alone stacks the deck against them. Not to mention the whole 80's, 90's reliability advantage that they gave up to the imports. The only way to even stay in the game is to ensure a moving product. Cut the cookie any way you want to product makes the profit not the other way around. Once the start up costs of these new vehicles from GM hit the streets I'll bet the losses in profit diminish vastly as well.

 

I think you're right. While Ford stays stuck in analysis paralysis with this arrogant fool in charge of design (what the hell was he doing six years ago?!), GM is rolling out product right now, going back to their roots of - and here's a novel concept - being a quality car maker.

I'm not sure Ford HAS six years.

 

Not only that but you also have this http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...113_975898.htm
and the fact that the new auto 6 speed is also going to be shared by BMW and Mercedes as well. They are still in an uphill climb make no doubt. I'm not say they aren't but with all these new vehicles, drastic sales increases, multi million dollar deals, etc they are working in the right direction I think. I hope Ford follows suit instead of hording its money hoping to loose less and less money a year. Spend some now produce something that could possibly rake in the sales and watch the profits soar.

 

I appreciate the heartfelt reply above and the genuine support for Ford and GM. But the real answer here is that both Ford and GM are still, in more than a few areas, getting it wrong. I've pointed out to one particular poster that GM's approach to the situation places them in greater jeopardy fiscally speaking IMO, primarily to show the flaw in his overly simple argument, but realistically neither strategy currently employed by either automaker gives me much hope that we will soon see anything better than sustainable mediocrity despite what I would like to see. And although most of these have been mentioned elsewhere, here are some of the reasons why.....

First, Ford and GM are far too busy trying to beat the Japanese at their own game despite the fact that people who want an Accord, Camry, or Altima by all accounts do not want a Ford or a GM no matter how good the car and in spite of the reality that most people who still do want a Ford or GM and are actually in the market for people movers apparently don't want a car similar to the Accord or any of it's existing rivals. With sincerity if anybody can find actual evidence to genuinely rebut the above I will gladly recant. But do keep in mind that you will need to explain at least some of the following and will be expected to provide something of substance in the argument. (I'm not directing that at you Slims)

Evidence for the above.....

The new Taurus, Aura, and even Fusion have met with amazingly slow sales despite the fact that all are competent cars, two of them are surprisingly good in fact. Some will rant against the Fusion since it still gives up some ground to the Japanese, but the argument there set aside for a moment Aura is very well executed offering virtually everything the new Malibu does for roughly a year now with little success despite superior styling relative to the Japanese competition. And since the Aura's price is roughly on par with Accord the only factors you have left are the Saturn nameplate and plain consumer disinterest. And in fairness the Saturn nameplate can only account for so much.

Next we have Ford's own Taurus which provides an amazingly supple ride (think Lexus and you wont be far off) from the confines of an amazingly good interior. Arguably the Taurus name is a bit of a stumbling block IMO, but even if this is proving to be a problem for the car we still have to explain the fact that Ford's newest sedan apparently cannot even bring in sales from the domestic brand faithful. Taurus if faring no better in the marketplace than did the Five Hundred despite numerous quantifiable improvements virtually all of which you cannot help but notice the second you put the car into drive.

Now on to the Fusion. Without question there are areas of compromise, but they are primarily small and without question don't explain the lackluster demand for the model on their own merit. A short list would include the under-achieving V6, some cheap bits on the interior, and an oddly-designed center console to be kind. That said Camry experienced a large portion of its best sales years with a model that possessed a V6 uncompetitive in terms of power delivery and Nissan's Altima rose to stardom fielding an interior that was terrible in terms of materials, fit, and finish. Worth mentioning is that neither of those cars had the benefit of the Fusion's huge price advantage and the Nissan managed also lacked the stellar reputation for quality which the Fusion has developed.

A few of the above items might be explained away by simple chance, etc.. But the above represents too long a list of disappointment despite increasingly good efforts to all be explained away casually. Even more telling is that the best executed models are meeting with the least amount of success! The above falls squarely into 'Captain Obvious' territory. Consumers obviously don't want this kind of car from Detroit or these cars wouldn't be failing so convincingly.

There are other areas where Detroit's decision making abilities confound me to no end. But the above alone is enough to show that, at the moment, the folks pulling most of the strings just don't get it. With Ford I think the answer is to let Mulally cut most of the fat that they probably brought him in to get rid of and let Fields take the reigns. Bill Ford needs to stay precisely where he is since, IMO, he is very well suited for the role and the combination of Ford and Fields appears promising. Elsewhere, I think that GM needs to ditch Wagoner but keep Lutz. I wouldn't move Lutz to CEO instead finding a counterpart to Lutz who wont let Maximum Bob go completely off the reservation but who isn't quite so clueless as Wagoner.

 

I dunno. I happen to think that those who drive accords and camry's are driving them based on their reputation more than anything else. You can't get any more Vanilla looking than the late 90's Malibus/Impalas. But quality on them was dwarfed in comparison. If the big 3 (can't leave out the mopars as well) can get their reputation fixed, put out automobiles that people want to buy and can do so within a reasonable price range, I think (I am no where near an expert i base my opinions on the many cars I work on and what the many people I talk to about them think) the coat-tails that Honda has been riding will shrivel away and we can see more competitive markets.

The #1 priorities I see for Vanilla drivers are reliability and price. It is going to take alot on the price end just for the fact that the big 3 probably pay more retired employees than honda or Toyota employs period. But if at least the reliability followed by an influx of "wow that looks nice" or "I wonder what it is like" or "hey Jim check out my new car", that will increase sales dramatically which will help them to counter the price area. Satisfied customers sell more cars than consumer reports or TV commercials. Once the big 3 hit the market with cars that can stay on the road and spark just a little interest on their own, then I see the Camry and Accords sales equalizing out. America is the biggest "trend market" out there as evident with the SUV craze but those, like my dad, who just need reliable, comfortable, affordable, transportation if you put a car that does what the Accord and Camry does with a little pizzaz (have you seen the interiors of the new Malibu for instance?) in the mix it will sell. Then they can ride their own coat tails.

Toyota is taking a big hit nowadays as can be expected. It was predicted before they jumped that as soon as they hit the spotlight of #1 automaker, that closer and more scrutiny would follow. It seems they were right and Toyota took a big hit on the chin. Several months back to back sales increases and plagued problems left and right and now they are actually seeing losses in sales and getting beat out in other markets and that will trickle down to their profits as well.

Now we need the Toyotas to hit NASCAR tracks and all break down so we can go ahead and bury them and take them out of the whole top 3 comparison.

I know several at work who are seriously thinking of trading in their foreign for a new vehicle. One in particular is wanting to get rid of his Lexus ES 300 (looking at the new Malibu ) and the SUV thing (something 300 forgot the name) for possibly the Acadia or the Ford midsize crossover SUV (forgot its name). He found out the hard way that imports cost alot more money when the repairs start adding up (and I am charging him almost half of what dealers charge and at least 20% less than any other quite he has gotten).

And I will admit that investing tons of money in new projects and vehicles (GM) is more risky, but look at the stakes, its time to raise the bar. The age old addage of it takes money to make money is never more true than now. If it tanks they will be even in more of a world of hurt. But so far the strategy has worked on one thing, sales. You can't have quarter after quarter of increased sales and be in the red forever. The economy in general has been bad but GM still saw overall sales increases. Sooner or later sales will equal the money spent on the platform and profits can the be gained. I personally think this strategy will work much better than the past 10 + years.

 

My problem isn't with the investment of money it is how, when, and where they are investing. And, as much as I hate to beat the negativism drum even more, you absolutely can see consistently increasing sales and still never realize a profit. That said in more than a few ways GM has a better handle on some of the 'right ways' get things turned around than does Ford. But in both cases many well intentioned and initially well conceived efforts are sidelined by poor execution in one or more areas. Both could be doing far better than they are, and each too seldom takes advantage of obvious opportunities made available through the mistakes of Asian rivals.