Made in the USA
1/6/08, 06:41 AM
#1
GT Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Made in the USA
If you were going to spend more than $500 on a modification to your car, say like a hood and something simular was available here and made by American workers, would it bother you at all to buy it knowing it was manufactured in China or Mexico?
1/6/08, 07:02 AM
#4
Legacy TMS Member
If you don't know, the popcorn is handy for hanging out in threads such as these, which is sure to get many different opinions and probably (hopefully not) become a heated arguement. I hope that's not your intent with starting it.... seems more like a personal preference that you could decide for yourself.
1/6/08, 07:25 AM
#5
GT Member
Join Date: May 2, 2005
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jeff,
To answer your question, Yes I try to stick with MADE IN THE USA products, however the sad fact is not much is made in the USA anymore. In fact, more than 40% of the components in the new mustang is made in Mexico. The company I work for recently opened a manufacturing facility in Mexico... I don’t have the answers but I do know we as consumers can influence and perhaps help make a difference. Sadly, I feel that in the next 10 years the US will move atleast 80% of its employment to the service and retail sector and not manufacturing...
To answer your question, Yes I try to stick with MADE IN THE USA products, however the sad fact is not much is made in the USA anymore. In fact, more than 40% of the components in the new mustang is made in Mexico. The company I work for recently opened a manufacturing facility in Mexico... I don’t have the answers but I do know we as consumers can influence and perhaps help make a difference. Sadly, I feel that in the next 10 years the US will move atleast 80% of its employment to the service and retail sector and not manufacturing...
1/6/08, 07:53 AM
#6
GT Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: February 15, 2007
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tom you make a good point, my intent is not to start a cold war with China or Mexico or for this to become a political thread, this isn't the place for it.
I'm just genuinely curious to know how we as US citizens owning an American Muscle car feel about putting Chinese products on it when similar American products are available. In most cases we as consumers don't have a choice but when we do does anyone consider it? and how does it affect their decision.
Adam I hear you, I'm retired from IBM and before I left I saw the trend to move many services they provide remotely to their customers to India and the like, I also worked for Goodyear and they have been moving their manufacturing to Mexico for years and even became part owners in one of the largest Chinese tire manufactures.
I'm going to stop here so I don't make this seem like a political rambeling, I just would like to know you guys opinions.
jeff
I'm just genuinely curious to know how we as US citizens owning an American Muscle car feel about putting Chinese products on it when similar American products are available. In most cases we as consumers don't have a choice but when we do does anyone consider it? and how does it affect their decision.
Adam I hear you, I'm retired from IBM and before I left I saw the trend to move many services they provide remotely to their customers to India and the like, I also worked for Goodyear and they have been moving their manufacturing to Mexico for years and even became part owners in one of the largest Chinese tire manufactures.
I'm going to stop here so I don't make this seem like a political rambeling, I just would like to know you guys opinions.
jeff
1/6/08, 08:01 AM
#7
Legacy TMS Member
No worries Jeff..... hopefully now that we've spoke on it already, no one will make this thread become a political statement. 
C'mon people let's hear what you have to say!
C'mon people let's hear what you have to say!
1/6/08, 08:10 AM
#8
Legacy TMS Member
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: New Carlisle, Ohio (20 miles north of Dayton)
Posts: 6,982
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Tom you make a good point, my intent is not to start a cold war with China or Mexico or for this to become a political thread, this isn't the place for it.
I'm just genuinely curious to know how we as US citizens owning an American Muscle car feel about putting Chinese products on it when similar American products are available. In most cases we as consumers don't have a choice but when we do does anyone consider it? and how does it affect their decision.
Adam I hear you, I'm retired from IBM and before I left I saw the trend to move many services they provide remotely to their customers to India and the like, I also worked for Goodyear and they have been moving their manufacturing to Mexico for years and even became part owners in one of the largest Chinese tire manufactures.
I'm going to stop here so I don't make this seem like a political rambeling, I just would like to know you guys opinions.
jeff
I'm just genuinely curious to know how we as US citizens owning an American Muscle car feel about putting Chinese products on it when similar American products are available. In most cases we as consumers don't have a choice but when we do does anyone consider it? and how does it affect their decision.
Adam I hear you, I'm retired from IBM and before I left I saw the trend to move many services they provide remotely to their customers to India and the like, I also worked for Goodyear and they have been moving their manufacturing to Mexico for years and even became part owners in one of the largest Chinese tire manufactures.
I'm going to stop here so I don't make this seem like a political rambeling, I just would like to know you guys opinions.
jeff
I feel very stongly about this subject. I have been in the tool and die trade since 1975. Since 2000 about 45% of the tool and die and mold shops in this country have went out of business due to off shore tooling. 2 years ago our beloved Ford Motor Co. told all of it suppliers that by the end of 2008 they wanted 80% of all tooling used to produce their cars built off shore to control costs. Honda of North American did the same thing.
So to answer your question. I just installed OBX longtube headers on my car yesterday. I am no different than anyone else. I just want the most bang for the buck. And paying $1,500 for them because they were made in the USA does not mean you are buying quality.
1/6/08, 08:11 AM
#9
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
1/6/08, 12:16 PM
#12
As long as it works as expected / advertised I have no issues where it's made. Dynacorn who makes the 67/68 fastback bodies stamp their metal overseas. They fit just as good as the NOS stuff from what I've used of it.
[Since the language thing was brought up]
The whole outsourcing thing is unfortunate but its the American way. America has always been a country that is open to everyone. Look at our history, it starts with people coming over and conquering the land. Native American history is usually just one chapter in most history books in todays schools and only generalize Native Americans without going into specific tribes. We are a country without a native language for the most part. We built ourselves on a country trading with others. Where we're at now in the economy is not new, it's been in motion for a very long time.
[/Since the language thing was brought up]
[Since the language thing was brought up]
The whole outsourcing thing is unfortunate but its the American way. America has always been a country that is open to everyone. Look at our history, it starts with people coming over and conquering the land. Native American history is usually just one chapter in most history books in todays schools and only generalize Native Americans without going into specific tribes. We are a country without a native language for the most part. We built ourselves on a country trading with others. Where we're at now in the economy is not new, it's been in motion for a very long time.
[/Since the language thing was brought up]
1/6/08, 12:31 PM
#14
GT Member
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the OBX headers is a great example.
I spent $1100 on a 1 3/4 primary pipe header and x-pipe. Quality was outstanding. I never even considered the OBX as I am a firm believer that in most cases you get what you pay for. That being said, the pics of the OBX headers in the other thread look pretty good (better then I was expecting). So I could understand a consumer wanting to save such a significant amount of money. I think the true test will be if those welds hold up 6 months down the road. As a comparison, while the American Racing Headers are expensive, I have actually seen them and they are a work of art! Really.
Me personally--I buy American when I can---but I would certainly consider car parts from elsewhere if the quality was there and the price difference was significant.
I spent $1100 on a 1 3/4 primary pipe header and x-pipe. Quality was outstanding. I never even considered the OBX as I am a firm believer that in most cases you get what you pay for. That being said, the pics of the OBX headers in the other thread look pretty good (better then I was expecting). So I could understand a consumer wanting to save such a significant amount of money. I think the true test will be if those welds hold up 6 months down the road. As a comparison, while the American Racing Headers are expensive, I have actually seen them and they are a work of art! Really.
Me personally--I buy American when I can---but I would certainly consider car parts from elsewhere if the quality was there and the price difference was significant.
1/6/08, 12:35 PM
#15
Mach 1 Member
Join Date: August 7, 2004
Location: Socal
Posts: 723
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1/6/08, 02:06 PM
#17
Being on this side of the coin brings another view to it...
We manufacture everything here, and we do it to help someone else's job, because if everybody outsourced everything (and we certainly could saveing a boatload of money in the process) eventually the person you want as a customer doesn't have a job that can let them be your customer... then what?
So, while there is financial reasons to make the move to China or elsewhere, we keep it here, and it does mean that our parts cost more, but the quality is second to none. You can't get your QC that good when you receive a container full of product from overseas and it's not right - there's nothing to do at that point but sell it and order another container, hoping it comes out better. With us, if there's a problem in production, we can stop right then and there, figure it out, and then move forward. Also, when you offshore your products, they tend to show up soon after as someone else's product, made with your tooling, and they always try to cut corners that shouldn't be cut (the recent toy scare was a perfect example - do you think Mattel said put the lead in the toys?) So while we do charge a little more, we hope you're getting a lot more as a customer that makes it worth it.
Also, a lot of times what we're seeing more of is that for short run stuff (anything under 10k pieces) QC becomes such an issue that companies end up bringing work back to the US because they get it done "at a great price" only to find their failure / reject rate is 50%+... so if you paid half of what you'd pay an American shop to do it, but throw away 25% and upset 25% of your customers with the rest of it, did you save anything?
On what makes our products worth it:
Virgin UV-inhibited resins straight from companies like DuPont - check.
Real 6061 Billet Aluminum from suppliers such as Alcoa - check.
Finishing done in an evironmentally sound way by shops that are checked by OSHA / EPA? - check.
Made by U.S. workers in U.S. factories / shops? - check.
Hand-inspected before shipment on every piece - check.
I could go on, but you get the point... all these things go away when you send it offshore, and not all are good things to lose, as you might notice from that short list off the top of my head.
/semi-rant mode on/
I am a firm believer that the U.S. manufacturing sector is actually making a strong comeback. For years (and I was in it in a different industry) you had rows of manual machines operated by skilled craftsman making parts all day long. The problem was, they made a lot of money, and it was a skill that could be taught. So, if you turn to offshore labor, they can be taught to do the job (approximately) and will do it for pennies on the dollar (literally).
Fast forward to around the early-mid nineties, and you saw mom & pop machine shops shuttering there doors daily because they couldn't compete with offshore labor costs. Raw materials, equipment, etc.. were pretty much the same price, but the labor was so cheap that the increased cost of transport was not enough to protect the business model.
The shops that survived in this time frame started re-tooling to modern CNC/ automated equipment, and while a lot of the craftsman disappeared because they were no longer needed, along with a lot of "shop labor", the guys left became proficient in programming and operating the CNC equipment you see everywhere today. So now, instead of 10 guys working 40 hours a week to make a run of cup holder bezels on about 8 machines (each set up to do a different task), we have one guy, running one machine, that can make the same run in two days, then move on to the next job, and run them. Heck, I've been in shops where one guy runs 6 or seven CNC machines all at once, and even shops where once the machines are set up, they run unattended for the most part 24/7 just spitting out part after part. That's how the U.S. will compete (and hopefully win) with offshore manufacturing - through technology and training.
Now on the question of hoods - while there are automated processes to manufacture them here competitively priced, the problem is that the production volume is so low that it doesn't pay to invest in the process, so the normal way to make things like that is with manual labor (lay-up the glass, trim, sand, etc...). Finding skilled labor in that field is difficult, and so a lot of times it can be sent offshore and savings be had because when you take the labor out of the equation, the cost per part is very low compared to the overall cost. I've been in glass shops, and they aren't places you'd want to work given the choice, compared to a cushy office or nice A/C shop environment. So things like that do tend to get outsourced, but I'd wager that the poor guys making the hood overseas (or welding or or whatever dangerous thing you want to think of) probably are not taking all the precautions that will let them live as long as the American worker doing the same job here. Again, it's a cost savings in dollars, but somebody is paying for it in blood (or lungs, or eyesight, etc...). So it's just another reason I choose not to outsource any of our production.
There's always choices in the market, hopefully companies like ours can give you a choice for quality products at an affordable price that will make you think twice before buying an inferior piece just based on price alone. Add to it that it might be your neighbor's job you are helping to support, and it just is an added bonus. And where we do compete already with offshore products, hopefully the benefits of our products are so obvious that it really isn't a competition or a question for most any of our customers.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled playoff games already in progress...
/rant mode off/
We manufacture everything here, and we do it to help someone else's job, because if everybody outsourced everything (and we certainly could saveing a boatload of money in the process) eventually the person you want as a customer doesn't have a job that can let them be your customer... then what?
So, while there is financial reasons to make the move to China or elsewhere, we keep it here, and it does mean that our parts cost more, but the quality is second to none. You can't get your QC that good when you receive a container full of product from overseas and it's not right - there's nothing to do at that point but sell it and order another container, hoping it comes out better. With us, if there's a problem in production, we can stop right then and there, figure it out, and then move forward. Also, when you offshore your products, they tend to show up soon after as someone else's product, made with your tooling, and they always try to cut corners that shouldn't be cut (the recent toy scare was a perfect example - do you think Mattel said put the lead in the toys?) So while we do charge a little more, we hope you're getting a lot more as a customer that makes it worth it.
Also, a lot of times what we're seeing more of is that for short run stuff (anything under 10k pieces) QC becomes such an issue that companies end up bringing work back to the US because they get it done "at a great price" only to find their failure / reject rate is 50%+... so if you paid half of what you'd pay an American shop to do it, but throw away 25% and upset 25% of your customers with the rest of it, did you save anything?
On what makes our products worth it:
Virgin UV-inhibited resins straight from companies like DuPont - check.
Real 6061 Billet Aluminum from suppliers such as Alcoa - check.
Finishing done in an evironmentally sound way by shops that are checked by OSHA / EPA? - check.
Made by U.S. workers in U.S. factories / shops? - check.
Hand-inspected before shipment on every piece - check.
I could go on, but you get the point... all these things go away when you send it offshore, and not all are good things to lose, as you might notice from that short list off the top of my head.
/semi-rant mode on/
I am a firm believer that the U.S. manufacturing sector is actually making a strong comeback. For years (and I was in it in a different industry) you had rows of manual machines operated by skilled craftsman making parts all day long. The problem was, they made a lot of money, and it was a skill that could be taught. So, if you turn to offshore labor, they can be taught to do the job (approximately) and will do it for pennies on the dollar (literally).
Fast forward to around the early-mid nineties, and you saw mom & pop machine shops shuttering there doors daily because they couldn't compete with offshore labor costs. Raw materials, equipment, etc.. were pretty much the same price, but the labor was so cheap that the increased cost of transport was not enough to protect the business model.
The shops that survived in this time frame started re-tooling to modern CNC/ automated equipment, and while a lot of the craftsman disappeared because they were no longer needed, along with a lot of "shop labor", the guys left became proficient in programming and operating the CNC equipment you see everywhere today. So now, instead of 10 guys working 40 hours a week to make a run of cup holder bezels on about 8 machines (each set up to do a different task), we have one guy, running one machine, that can make the same run in two days, then move on to the next job, and run them. Heck, I've been in shops where one guy runs 6 or seven CNC machines all at once, and even shops where once the machines are set up, they run unattended for the most part 24/7 just spitting out part after part. That's how the U.S. will compete (and hopefully win) with offshore manufacturing - through technology and training.
Now on the question of hoods - while there are automated processes to manufacture them here competitively priced, the problem is that the production volume is so low that it doesn't pay to invest in the process, so the normal way to make things like that is with manual labor (lay-up the glass, trim, sand, etc...). Finding skilled labor in that field is difficult, and so a lot of times it can be sent offshore and savings be had because when you take the labor out of the equation, the cost per part is very low compared to the overall cost. I've been in glass shops, and they aren't places you'd want to work given the choice, compared to a cushy office or nice A/C shop environment. So things like that do tend to get outsourced, but I'd wager that the poor guys making the hood overseas (or welding or or whatever dangerous thing you want to think of) probably are not taking all the precautions that will let them live as long as the American worker doing the same job here. Again, it's a cost savings in dollars, but somebody is paying for it in blood (or lungs, or eyesight, etc...). So it's just another reason I choose not to outsource any of our production.
There's always choices in the market, hopefully companies like ours can give you a choice for quality products at an affordable price that will make you think twice before buying an inferior piece just based on price alone. Add to it that it might be your neighbor's job you are helping to support, and it just is an added bonus. And where we do compete already with offshore products, hopefully the benefits of our products are so obvious that it really isn't a competition or a question for most any of our customers.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled playoff games already in progress...
/rant mode off/
1/6/08, 02:09 PM
#18
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
My job recently went to China, so when it hits home you sorta have a different outlook on it. The company thought nothing of spending millions to send it over there, but complained when a $200 part was needed for a machine here.
I could rant more on this but it would be off topic and not good for my blood pressure!
I could rant more on this but it would be off topic and not good for my blood pressure!
1/6/08, 02:31 PM
#19
Legacy TMS Member
Something else to consider is China's failure to abide by patent laws and proprietary ownership. It has become quite common for a company to design an item, then send it to a Chinese company for production only to see another Chinese company start producing their product and competing with them.
Anyone remember what the reasoning was for building the Alaska pipeline? It was to provide the West Coast of the US with oil and gasoline. Around the first oil crisis in '74 the oil industry found it much more profitable to ship that oil to Japan. Today they are shipping it to China. So what's the price of a gallon of gas in good old California today? Yeppers, that's the good old American way.
Just my $.02
B
B
Semper Fi
Anyone remember what the reasoning was for building the Alaska pipeline? It was to provide the West Coast of the US with oil and gasoline. Around the first oil crisis in '74 the oil industry found it much more profitable to ship that oil to Japan. Today they are shipping it to China. So what's the price of a gallon of gas in good old California today? Yeppers, that's the good old American way.
Just my $.02
B
BSemper Fi
1/6/08, 02:39 PM
#20
Cobra R Member
Join Date: September 26, 2006
Location: East Moline, IL
Posts: 2,019
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
If everyone priced their items and had the quality control that you do, Marcello, I don't think there'd have to be any discussion here. Unfortunately, you've got places charging in upwards of $1500 for some headers. And while I can see $500-$1000, $1500 for headers for these cars is insane. And there are many products like that. Car parts, and other products in general. If the American companies would take a momentary loss and lower their prices, they'd make out better in the long run.