HTT Calls IRS Fans 'Snobs'
5/17/05, 12:14 PM
#61
Originally posted by holderca1@May 17, 2005, 1:58 PM
Mods, can we just merge all the IRS threads into one? It's the same discussion going on in each and everyone of them.
Mods, can we just merge all the IRS threads into one? It's the same discussion going on in each and everyone of them.
5/17/05, 12:26 PM
#63
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I'm not arguing that IRS is inferior. I understand the benifits but the truth of the matter is the '05 GT has received very good reviews on it's handling. Case in point from Car and Drivers review:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...8&page_number=2
C&D recorded a 0.87g with the '05 GT. I'm assuming that the GT500 will follow all other Cobras and be a better handler than the GT. Would it handle better with IRS? Yes. Do the benifits justify the cost? Ford deemed that it didn't and that there are better places to invest that money.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?se...8&page_number=2
The next best thing about the Mustang is that it now rides like a modern car. Less jarring crash-through, fewer expansion-strip jitters, no lateral wango-tango over broken pavement, less suspension-borne road noise. Yet even with the far cushier ride, handling has improved. Not even the most recent independent-rear-suspension SVT Cobra can match the new GT's skidpad grip, which now also surpasses a Nissan 350Z Touring's, come to think of it. Pitched hard into corners, the Mustang is initially neutral, then tends toward understeer. If the push annoys you, just stab the throttle and you can induce power oversteer. Neutral, understeer, oversteer. Quite a smorgasbord. And the tail-happiness now materializes more gently, rather than in one heart-stopping twitch. Throughout, extraneous body movements are nicely damped.
0412_road_mustang_dash.jpgGone is the nervousness of Mustangs of yore, and gone is the oh-so-annoying head toss that has historically been the trademark of live rear axles. In fact, every C/D tester peered at least once under our GT's rump to ensure there weren't a couple of pricey half-shafts whizzing around in there. You only notice the live axle at step-off, when you turn 90 degrees while simultaneously applying major throttle. Then the rear end briefly binds and skitters outward a few inches, feeling a trifle awkward, momentarily confused. It's amazing what conscientious engineers can do these days with solid axles. If you don't believe us, check out the latest Toyota 4Runner. Fact is, there's a precision to this Mustang's movements that makes the old car feel like Mr. Ed. Did we just say "precision" and "Mustang" in the same sentence?
0412_road_mustang_dash.jpgGone is the nervousness of Mustangs of yore, and gone is the oh-so-annoying head toss that has historically been the trademark of live rear axles. In fact, every C/D tester peered at least once under our GT's rump to ensure there weren't a couple of pricey half-shafts whizzing around in there. You only notice the live axle at step-off, when you turn 90 degrees while simultaneously applying major throttle. Then the rear end briefly binds and skitters outward a few inches, feeling a trifle awkward, momentarily confused. It's amazing what conscientious engineers can do these days with solid axles. If you don't believe us, check out the latest Toyota 4Runner. Fact is, there's a precision to this Mustang's movements that makes the old car feel like Mr. Ed. Did we just say "precision" and "Mustang" in the same sentence?
5/17/05, 12:35 PM
#64
GTR Member
Originally posted by holderca1@May 17, 2005, 12:58 PM
Mods, can we just merge all the IRS threads into one? It's the same discussion going on in each and everyone of them.
Mods, can we just merge all the IRS threads into one? It's the same discussion going on in each and everyone of them.
5/17/05, 12:39 PM
#65
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I love my 05, but the suspension needs a lot of work. I feel that HTT is just trying to justify the decision he made, but ultimately it came down to cost. I don't think anyone will disagree that an SRA is inferior technology. An IRS suspension is modern technology and should be used to showcase SVT's engineering resources. I guess if you want an all around american performance car, you have to buy a Vette.
Another thing that people forget is that IRS is superior where it counts.....Everday driving. A IRS suspension will ride better and be more controllable at the limits. I notice that my GT's rear end feels unsettled close to the limits.
Another thing that people forget is that IRS is superior where it counts.....Everday driving. A IRS suspension will ride better and be more controllable at the limits. I notice that my GT's rear end feels unsettled close to the limits.
5/17/05, 01:17 PM
#66
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Jeeze, another **** on SRA thread!
To: all the IRS "snobs"
cc: sane people
Subject: easy to follow instructions
Here is a step by step procedure for all to follow that are still bringing this up AGAIN.
1. Drive a '05 Mustang GT to get a feel for how it handles
2. Read reviews on next SVT product when it comes out, try to test drive one to get a feel for yourself (good luck)
3. Make a decision if the car is right for you and either buy it or buy something else.
that's it, stop whinning about something that you haven't even experienced. If there is a SRA in the next SVT Mustang, you can't change that, unless you buy out ownership of Ford quickly and change the production plans. Or maybe, just maybe, you can install your own IRS.
Now, I'm not saying that SRA is the better of the two. I do know that my 05 GT handles great, and as good if not better than my $31,000 IRS 2001 Acura CL S. Now, I know there are several factors there other than the suspension, but can't all of you wait to see what the product is before whinning about it????????
To: all the IRS "snobs"
cc: sane people
Subject: easy to follow instructions
Here is a step by step procedure for all to follow that are still bringing this up AGAIN.
1. Drive a '05 Mustang GT to get a feel for how it handles
2. Read reviews on next SVT product when it comes out, try to test drive one to get a feel for yourself (good luck)
3. Make a decision if the car is right for you and either buy it or buy something else.
that's it, stop whinning about something that you haven't even experienced. If there is a SRA in the next SVT Mustang, you can't change that, unless you buy out ownership of Ford quickly and change the production plans. Or maybe, just maybe, you can install your own IRS.
Now, I'm not saying that SRA is the better of the two. I do know that my 05 GT handles great, and as good if not better than my $31,000 IRS 2001 Acura CL S. Now, I know there are several factors there other than the suspension, but can't all of you wait to see what the product is before whinning about it????????
5/17/05, 02:03 PM
#67
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Originally posted by moc1976@May 17, 2005, 2:20 PM
Jeeze, another **** on SRA thread!
To: all the IRS "snobs"
cc: sane people
Subject: easy to follow instructions
Here is a step by step procedure for all to follow that are still bringing this up AGAIN.
1. Drive a '05 Mustang GT to get a feel for how it handles
2. Read reviews on next SVT product when it comes out, try to test drive one to get a feel for yourself (good luck)
3. Make a decision if the car is right for you and either buy it or buy something else.
that's it, stop whinning about something that you haven't even experienced. If there is a SRA in the next SVT Mustang, you can't change that, unless you buy out ownership of Ford quickly and change the production plans. Or maybe, just maybe, you can install your own IRS.
Now, I'm not saying that SRA is the better of the two. I do know that my 05 GT handles great, and as good if not better than my $31,000 IRS 2001 Acura CL S. Now, I know there are several factors there other than the suspension, but can't all of you wait to see what the product is before whinning about it????????
Jeeze, another **** on SRA thread!
To: all the IRS "snobs"
cc: sane people
Subject: easy to follow instructions
Here is a step by step procedure for all to follow that are still bringing this up AGAIN.
1. Drive a '05 Mustang GT to get a feel for how it handles
2. Read reviews on next SVT product when it comes out, try to test drive one to get a feel for yourself (good luck)
3. Make a decision if the car is right for you and either buy it or buy something else.
that's it, stop whinning about something that you haven't even experienced. If there is a SRA in the next SVT Mustang, you can't change that, unless you buy out ownership of Ford quickly and change the production plans. Or maybe, just maybe, you can install your own IRS.
Now, I'm not saying that SRA is the better of the two. I do know that my 05 GT handles great, and as good if not better than my $31,000 IRS 2001 Acura CL S. Now, I know there are several factors there other than the suspension, but can't all of you wait to see what the product is before whinning about it????????
5/17/05, 02:05 PM
#68
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Originally posted by max2000jp@May 17, 2005, 2:06 PM
I guess I am one of the snobs whom wants a modern product. Ford and GM can keep using this very same mentality, while their market share ultimately slides. Building a product that works isn't enough for todays sophisticated consumers.
I guess I am one of the snobs whom wants a modern product. Ford and GM can keep using this very same mentality, while their market share ultimately slides. Building a product that works isn't enough for todays sophisticated consumers.
5/17/05, 02:09 PM
#69
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Originally posted by holderca1@May 17, 2005, 3:08 PM
Somehow I don't see GT500's sitting on showroom floors that aren't getting sold.
Somehow I don't see GT500's sitting on showroom floors that aren't getting sold.
5/17/05, 02:17 PM
#70
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Originally posted by max2000jp@May 17, 2005, 2:12 PM
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
Its already been stated in this very thread that the other cars that Ford is producing have IRS. If IRS is so darn important, why aren't they selling like the SRA Mustang? The lost market share is due to trucks and SUVs, jeeze, not the Mustang and the Shelby.
Explain that?
5/17/05, 02:18 PM
#71
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Originally posted by max2000jp@May 17, 2005, 2:12 PM
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
5/17/05, 02:18 PM
#72
Legacy TMS Member
Originally posted by max2000jp@May 17, 2005, 2:12 PM
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
I don't doubt that, but that's not the whole picture. Ford can sell 10,000 GT500's, but that doesn't matter if the rest of the line isn't selling well. The GT500 is a halo car, which I doubt Ford makes much of a profit on.
5/17/05, 02:20 PM
#73
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Originally posted by TomServo92@May 17, 2005, 2:21 PM
Everyone wants to equate no IRS in the GT500 with Ford's market share woes. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The average buyer that walks into a Ford dealership could care less if the GT500 has IRS or not (I would be tempted wager as to whether the average buyer even knows that the GT500 even exists). The market share issue is a matter of perception of overall quality and has nothing to do with what kind of rear suspension is in a limited production Mustang. Many of Ford's mainstream offerings have IRS and that hasn't stopped market share decline. Having IRS in the GT500 isn't going to change it either. If you want to argue which suspension is technically better than the other, go for it. But stop trying to pin market share decline on this one issue.
Everyone wants to equate no IRS in the GT500 with Ford's market share woes. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The average buyer that walks into a Ford dealership could care less if the GT500 has IRS or not (I would be tempted wager as to whether the average buyer even knows that the GT500 even exists). The market share issue is a matter of perception of overall quality and has nothing to do with what kind of rear suspension is in a limited production Mustang. Many of Ford's mainstream offerings have IRS and that hasn't stopped market share decline. Having IRS in the GT500 isn't going to change it either. If you want to argue which suspension is technically better than the other, go for it. But stop trying to pin market share decline on this one issue.
5/17/05, 02:28 PM
#76
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Originally posted by moc1976@May 17, 2005, 2:28 PM
S2000 = Honda halo car? Just a thought, not really wanting to start another argument in this thread, we already have plenty : )
S2000 = Honda halo car? Just a thought, not really wanting to start another argument in this thread, we already have plenty : )
Edit: If you count the Acura division, then yes Honda has a halo car in the NSX, but usually Honda and Acura dealerships are not colocated.
5/17/05, 02:29 PM
#77
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Originally posted by TomServo92@May 17, 2005, 3:21 PM
Everyone wants to equate no IRS in the GT500 with Ford's market share woes. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The average buyer that walks into a Ford dealership could care less if the GT500 has IRS or not (I would be tempted wager as to whether the average buyer even knows that the GT500 even exists). The market share issue is a matter of perception of overall quality and has nothing to do with what kind of rear suspension is in a limited production Mustang. Many of Ford's mainstream offerings have IRS and that hasn't stopped market share decline. Having IRS in the GT500 isn't going to change it either. If you want to argue which suspension is technically better than the other, go for it. But stop trying to pin market share decline on this one issue.
Everyone wants to equate no IRS in the GT500 with Ford's market share woes. The truth is that the two have nothing to do with each other. The average buyer that walks into a Ford dealership could care less if the GT500 has IRS or not (I would be tempted wager as to whether the average buyer even knows that the GT500 even exists). The market share issue is a matter of perception of overall quality and has nothing to do with what kind of rear suspension is in a limited production Mustang. Many of Ford's mainstream offerings have IRS and that hasn't stopped market share decline. Having IRS in the GT500 isn't going to change it either. If you want to argue which suspension is technically better than the other, go for it. But stop trying to pin market share decline on this one issue.
Again, Ford and GM can continue to build cars that don't match the consumers needs and not match the competive standards. You can argue with me until you are blue, but take a look at Ford's overall sales. It proves my point.....
5/17/05, 02:30 PM
#78
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Originally posted by holderca1@May 17, 2005, 3:24 PM
Also consider that neither Honda nor Toyota have a halo car, and there sales are doing pretty well.
Also consider that neither Honda nor Toyota have a halo car, and there sales are doing pretty well.
Toyota's Halo division is Lexus. Honda's was the NSX. A halo car is a general term for a vehicle or brand that creates a buzz.
5/17/05, 02:32 PM
#79
Tasca Super Boss 429 Member
Originally posted by max2000jp@May 17, 2005, 2:33 PM
Toyota's Halo division is Lexus. Honda's was the NSX. A halo car is a general term for a vehicle or brand that creates a buzz.
Toyota's Halo division is Lexus. Honda's was the NSX. A halo car is a general term for a vehicle or brand that creates a buzz.
Edit: That should be Honda's is the NSX, they still make them, at least under the Acura badge here in the states.
5/17/05, 02:34 PM
#80
AKA 1 BULLITT------------ Legacy TMS Member
And the Mustang is the left overs.