V10

More Zeta information. According to Autoextremest there was going to be a Buick coupe & vert, Monte-Carlo coupe and GTO coupe built off Zeta. ALL of these coupes (& the vert) are canceled.

Apparantely there NEVER was a new Camaro in the works.

1970Bird

That's good.

beneman

A friend of mine who has a nicely modified 01 Z28 (w/450 rwhp) told me that he had heard that the reason there was not going to be a new Camaro is that somehow that name was tied to the plant in Canada where those last F-bodies were produced. He told me that the legal agreement w/GM says something to the effect that any future cars utilizing the Camaro name must be produced at that plant. He said the plant was very much out of date, and that it would cost big $$s to convert the line over to produce new models.

I am not sure how accurate this info is, but I found it interesting. He also mentioned that the Chevelle name was free and clear.

Either way, those GM sites were interesting reads. I hope the guys at Ford are paying attention. They deserve a pat on the back. (But make it fast, I want to see what SE Mustangs they have in store before I make a decision....)

The Deviant One

:P That was some good reading!!! Poor F-body fans...

But...I dunno know about the rest of you...I'm kinda feeling that with the potential possibility of GM guys crossing over...it could make it a lot harder for us "true" Mustang fans to get their cars. :shock: I hope this is not the case, because in a year and a half, once the 03's paid and I've already graduated, I might be looking into the Shelby as my new steed.

Scothew

Correct and I agree. I am guessing its going to be in the 410rwhp range from the factory, which would be around the 475-480BHP mark. Simple exhaust and pulley upgrades with a tune and welcome to the 500rwhp mark easily.

trakslacker

Pigs are flying and heck is freezing over as we speak. I think the Cobra may have been the last straw for a LOT of GM boys.

Here's a quote that I NEVER thought I would see from a site like that. this was in regards to GM's flounderings and lack of compeition, "To heck with GM, they've done it to themselves."

Also, this was some guys signature,

"From the 5th gen forum ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WERM
'Anyone hear that stinking sound? That's the majority of the Camaro holdouts exiting the building. '"

This guy had like 3,500 posts, so he's gotta be a Chevy/GM guy.

:worship: Ford, nuff said.

HOTLAP

Wow - I feel for those guys over there - having been a Blue Oval fan my entire driving life - I know how it feels being in 2nd place and being frustrated that your brand seems to have their head up their rear.....remember not too long ago you could buy a 300+hp F-body over a 260hpMustang and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why Ford wouldn't up the hp to beat the GM's......now the tables have turned and GM is not going in the right direction..

I'm a HUGH Mustang fan (have owned 6 Mustangs over the years) but don't want to see GM bite the bullet here....competition is a good thing for us American V8 Muscle car fans and I would like to see GM not go under.

Now having said all of that FORD RULES and that new Shelby GT 500 excites me like the days of the original muscle cars when the sky was the limit before fuel and insurance concerns killed them off.....can't believe that we are seeing this come around again full circle...in a word these are AWESOME times for Mustang fans!!

2005muzzy

The GM guys sound worried. WOW. I thought I would never see the day that a chevy person converts. That's history in the makin!!!
I welcome the converts!!!! Way to go Ford!!!!

mustangfun101

I'm just happy to see alot of the folks posting on there admitting Ford is doing right with the Mustang.

TomServo92

One thing to keep in mind: many of those guys owned 5.0L Mustangs back in the '80s when the old five-oh was the best thing going. They jumped the fence in the '90s when the LT-1s raised the performance bar and Ford didn't respond in kind. They're just prodigal sons finding their way back home.

HammyZTS

I think their problems stem from this fact:

When the Camaro and Mustang were doing shoot-outs all throughout the 90s there was always a competition. Yes, the Camaro won most of the time, but mainly because it was just faster, whereas the Mustang won sometimes because it was just a better looking car and more popular. Now, the Mustang is winning everywhere, and GM has nothing to put up against it other than their lame-out-of-gate GTO. No one likes the GTO, and those that do aren't willing to pay 35 grand for it. Now, with Ford laying it on even thicker with the intoduction of both vert and high h/p editions, it's just really sinking in that GM took the quick and easy road just to get a car on the road instead of really giving a sh**. A rehashed design from Australia is nothing compared to an American designed supercar, sports car, convertible sports car, and svt engineered shelby racer. They have the vette, but last I checked the vette wasn't exactly a working class hero like a 300hp Mustang GT under 25 grand was...

new22003

Ive always hated the camaro but still wish it was around.

Competition makes the breed better for us ford guys too. Ford is doing a great job now but I would like to see a new Camaro by 2008 just to keep ford on their toes.

crazyhorse

I agree with that, but, it seems Ford is staying on their toes without Camaros. This Shelby is bred to compete with whatever gets put out in 2007, 2008, 2009, etc.

GMconvert

FWIW, I heard the same information about the St. Therese plant and the Camaro name. GM definitely made some kind of legal agreement with the Canadian autoworkers there that the Camaro name couldn't be used again without their involvement. I believe Lutz has said that the name Camaro would not be resurrected anytime soon, at least partially for that reason.

I think a lot of GM die-hards, as much as they would resist admitting it, would really be quite happy going with whatever car has the most power, best value or most exciting package. In the eighties, most people agreed that honor belonged to the Mustang. In the nineties, the pendulum returned to the GM camp. Now it's swinging back the other way -- the only difference now is that GM doesn't just have the weaker pony car, it has no pony car. That makes it easier for people to defect; they don't want to be left out of the fun entirely. Frankly, why rob yourself of driving the car you really want, just to stay faithful to the legacy of a car company which doesn't care about you anymore?

GM might learn from these mistakes, but I've been watching them make a lot of mistakes over the years and they haven't seemed to learn from any of them. Like many others, I'm through holding my breath waiting for them to magically build the perfect car. Ford already built it!

jgsmuzzy

Best quote of them all!

TomServo92

Yeah, I thought those quotes were good also. I do feel for them. After all, whether you like Fords or Chevys, we're all enthusiasts.

HammyZTS

Regarding the Camaro name, it is true that they cannot use this name anymore unless they use that exact factory. This is not speculation. Also, it was a fact that they Chevy was going to use the Chevelle name, but found that in test groups more people reacted favorably to Monte Carlo and would prefer it over a Chevelle. Thus, Monte Carlo was going to be dealt a whole new makeover, which explains why it, and the current Impala were so subtly redesigned right now. These were simple reskins to tide everyone over until the Zeta built Monte and Impala would debut in 07 as 08s asrear-wheel drive, large output V8 cars to compete with Mustang and 300...

Flyinlow

I am a GTO owner, but I payed invoice for my car. I know alot of you guys don't like the looks of the car, but I like the sleeper look and the performance and handling of the car are great, not to mention the interior is very nice. I'm not going to get on a soapbox about it, to each his own. I also like the retro looks of the Mustang and have been waiting for the GT500 so I can add it to my stable (get it, stable, Mustang). I'm a car guy and I love whats going on with Ford and Chrysler, but GM has really hit rock bottom now.

I am disapointed in GM because they do have their heads up their butts right now. They are going to play catch up to Ford and Chrysler and by the time they catch up, the market will be going in a different direction. The info about the F bodies tied to the plant in Ontario is true. They were tied to through 2006, so the plan was that there was a possibility of the Camaro coming back in 2007 on the Zeta chassis. Now that looks very unlikely, which is too bad.

I think Chrysler is making a mistake by not having a 2 door, V8 coupe in the Mustang price range, but you can't fault them for thinking 4 door V8 rear wheel drive. They should have taken the Charger name and put it on a 2 door, they would have sold a ton.

My biggest problem now is worrying about the dealer markup on the Shelby's. I can afford a $40,000 car and I'd be willing to pay MSRP for this one, but I won't pay a dealer markup, its just a matter of principal. If I was wealthy and money wasn't an object, then it wouldn't matter. Of course, I would probably by a Ford GT instead of the Shelby.

GMconvert

I think Flyinlow nailed it with the comment about GM playing catch-up. That's their problem -- they're always playing catch-up. And they move so slow, they always arrive to the party a day late and a dollar short. At least Dodge has the Charger, even though I think there should be a two-door. Chrysler's styles aren't quite my bag, but they seem to be innovating and they have some nicely-appointed products. Gone are the days of the K car, and the former Penta-star brand is the better for it.

But GM's still sleeping at the wheel! In this market segment, GM's plan for a new rear-drive, V8-powered Monte Carlo and Impala on Zeta would have been exactly the competition they needed to offer. But they can't think in the long-term. The short-term solution is higher profit-margin vehicles, read: trucks and big SUVs, so that's what they're going to build first.

S197Cobra

You won't have to pay markup, at 7500 units the GT500 isn't anywhere limited enough production to justify paying over MSRP. The only people who will pay a premium are the "gotta have it first at all costs" folks. Let 'em. Personally, I want to find a SVT Powerlease customer who doesn't want to buy a GT500, so I can work out a deal for their spot in line .

Dave