crazyhorse

This is a largely academic argument. The new Mustang - while certainly popular for modding and track racing - is NOT designed for the track. No manufacturer today produces a consumer street legal grand touring automobile that is warranted (or frankly, designed) to be taken to the track and beaten on.

So if you drive the bag off your new Mustang (or any car, for that matter) and have problems, then perhaps you should expect to have difficulties with the vehicle.

If you want a track car, then you buy one specifically designed for that purpose - a Ford racing Mustang...a GT supercar, etc. Heck, even if you buy a Ferrari or Porsche 911 GT3; if they find out you've been racing it on a track your warranty is automatically null and void.

I guess it depends upon what your usage plans for the vehicle are. I don't plan to track race my new Stang, that's for sure. [/b][/quote]
I thought the exact same thing, but, didn't want to post it. It would just be throwing fuel on the fire. Robert is right, however. If you want a race car, buy a race car. If you want a worthy street car, buy a Cobra. Neither one is ideal for the opposite purpose.

jwfisher

That use is what I want to do, and is what a large bunch of other people do. It's also the type of events SVT sponsors all around the country.

And "Drivers Education" or "Open Track" is not racing. It approaches it in terms of some of what the car does, but it is not racing. Purposely not.

I do agree with your point to a limited degree, but I'd counter that the ability to survive in tough conditions directly translates to the ability to survive 50, 75, 100k miles without falling part. Which is exactly what SN95s do already (starting the proces sby sounding like a rattle trap at only 12-15k miles).

When I go back just a few years, I was driving a generous friend's 440-RWHP TT Supra around the track with over 25 pounds of boost - and 80k miles on the clock. ZERO issues with everything. No cooling issues (never garked it's coolant int he Texas heat - when the Mustangs parked all around it were garking right and left). I'm not buying a Supra, I'm buying a Mustang - which I believe could be built to the same level of "toughness" but which is most definitely not.

200mphcobra

Jeff, what it boils down to is this. I would rather push my FORD than drive a Chevy or anything else for that matter. I put a larger radiator in my 96 Cobra. No overheating. I put a T-56 in it. No transmission problems. Manley connecting rods too. I don't expect my 28k new car to run like a Timex when I'm running the ***** off of it. And you know what, I like working on it. Now you seem very intelligent, and I respect you views and opinions, but really, don't you think your asking a tad too much from a car to expect it to never fail you running on a road course frequently? In the heat. And I never knew there was a 440 rwhp Supra stock from the factory.

jwfisher

Good stuff... everything my own '96 needed. And don't forget a panhard rod... else the axle will walk 2" to either side on the track and rip up any rims over 8" wide.

I'm not asking too much... none of my SVTs survived daily driving without over-heating. The '96's T-45 was unacceptable junk - as you found out too.

There never was... but even at that outrageous boost it never even hicupped. Didn't need a radiator transplant, didn't need an all-new tranny, didn't need anything.

200mphcobra

You should take comfort then that the 05 rear end is light years ahead of the previous set up, which proves that they can get it right when they try and that there is a new sherrif Tang at SVT. Also just wondering, how much did that Supra cost?

Steve

The F-Body will return and it will not be built in the Canadian plant, as we all know.

And you are right about one thing - the plant is closed. But do you know what else that means? That the contract with the Teamsters at that plant is expired, null and void, that the Union local is disolved, and therefore there is nothing to prevent GM/Chevrolet from building the next generation F-Body. GM or any other auto manufacturer has or would ever sign a Prevention to Build Exclusivity Agreement.

I still say that the F-Body WILL indeed return and it will be within 3 model years. Wait and see. And while it may or may not be built in the United States, it WILL be built.

But I still prefer the 2005 Mustang!

Steve

JW - what about the '05 'Boy Racer' that has been shown with the Cammer motor?

Think that it would hold up? It's supposedly going to be produced in limited numbers according to some reports.

jwfisher

We'll see about Tang. I'm still hurting by his BS claim that the car won't accomadate an SLA and still fit a 4.6 DOHC engine. I've seen a Lincoln LS with one... and I've measured an LS against both the old and new Mustang and personally know the dimensions. I know BS when I measure it... instead of fibbing to us it should have just been stated that the lack of an SLA was due pure and simply to cost. Remember, even the old cambird had one and it benefited tremendously from it.

Yes, for a solid axle, the new rear is very good. For a solid axle... with about 150 pounds of extraneous unsprung weight and a lot of mass. I swore I'd never go back to one... now I may have to while waiting for SVT...

About 34,995 in late 1994 dollars (before the exchange rate temporarily went to heck in 95-98). Worth every cent... and unlike our SVTs it hasn't depreciated all to heck... they are actually worth more now that they are out of production. A true supercar.

jwfisher

It'll be ultra expensive, IF it's even built. I do want to drive my street-registerable car on track - Boy Racer won't be legit anywhere but the track. I do applaud the effort.

I don't want it with a solid axle. That's old tech and a seriously limiting factor against the competition on the track - that is, the racing competition Ford would encounter in any racing series.

I do want the engine... a variant of which should be the production SVT engine IMHO. But, unfortunately, won't be.

I've got all the usual press pics of the Boy Racer/GT-R on my site... for those folks that haven't seen them.

It's interesting to see the cooling fans in that car - very visible inside the huge grill. There has been some serious thought there. I'd be interested to see if the FRPP heads (or whatever they actually use there) have the cooling passage and pocket mods the Ford GT heads received (a level of evolution well above the 093/04 CObra/Avaiator/Mach/Marauder heads or the 2000 R heads).

I do want to know how the T-56 ended up in that car... in terms of the shifter. Was it modified with a shift rod and remote shifter (like the 5-speed had to be)... was it the right length anyway? How did the clutch hook up to the hydraulics? A lot of fabrication, no doubt, another thing the special on TV didn't mention. Just as they pointedly didn't mention it's lap times versus the '99 Cobra Multimatic race car (in my last talk with those guys back in 2000, they told me about their spring rates - very interesting, they tried going all the way up to 1500 pounds in the rear before the control arms snapped). It's just too early in Boy Racer's development process for Ford to release any numbers. I don't beleive it will be competitive in the racing class it's likely get placed in. That's why, I believe, Ford has discussed putting it in it's own class against itself in some sort of spec series. I don't like the idea of that.

There is a great paper some Ford engineers delivered a few years back, about their effort to build the ultimate naturally aspirated 4.6 mod motor. 4 valves, 500 horses, 9000 RPM! The point of the project was to discover the upper ends of the architecture. Unfortunately, a lot of issues were discovered (some fixed on the Ford GT engine - like the crank snout). Others were not, such as the ultra-restrictive position of the valves (as part of the exercise, they built a head with the valves moved to a different point relative to the cylinder bore - allowing far better breathing - a known mod motor issue).

There was also some work done on FRPP 5.0 DOHC engine to raise it's rev limits to 8 grand - for the street. That work was never completed... Ford choose unnatural aspiration instead (and has yet to figure out how to handle all the heat and heat soak). You'll notice that the FRPP 5 liter DOHC crate engine with the optional supercharger (not available yet, but has been shown) has the supercharger aqn dingtercooler in a totally different position from the 03/04 Cobra. Whether this is just for packaging, or was done to help the heat soak, I don't know. It was purposely done, when the standard Cobra parts could have been used. Specualtion: it may even preview a config that would be used on a future production Cobra. Pics of all the FRPP crate 5 liters, including this one, are on my site.

Clutch

JWFISHER, let's sum up your heavy on verbage, light on content, posts, shall we?

You haven't enjoyed Ford's past Cobra's, you wish they'd make a better enginered vehicle, you don't like the content of the "rumors" on the rumor mill thread, you LOVE TT Supra's, and you're envious you haven't been officially invited to the "group stroke off". Oh, and you overheat cars in Texas for kicks, except TT Supras.

OK we get it! Do you have anything to add to this thread call "the rumor mill"?

On page 5 or so of these posts you claim to have insider info about OEM suppliers and their Cobra input, but you won't elaborate. I know, I know, you don't want anyone to get fired. I've never understood that commonly held, but utterly silly position of the "people in the know", so I'm going to test your theory and try to get someone fired without mentioning names or companies. Here goes.....

The 07 cobra will have a twin screw supercharged 5.4, and the aluminum block from the GT. It will be called a Shelby GT500 denoting the 500 horsepower it will produce. The front will resemble the concept car, the back will resemble the GTR, but will have a ducktail spoiler and a slightly smaller splitter. Inside, there will be a factory roll bar AKA 67-68 Shellby, fully integrated of course. Between the back towers, there will be a spare tire held in place by a brace, much like the concept. The tires will be 19inch sitting on FR500 styled rims. The car will be priced at 47K and will only come with Super Snake Racing stripes.

This info was made available to me through FORD's SVT Division, the OEM suppliers I know, and Carrol Shelby. Any Ford big wig reading this post should fire the entire SVT division and its OEM suppliers as they all contributed to my post. Bastards!

JW, start a "wish Ford could build a TT Supra" thread a female dog all you want about the Cobra so I don't have to read your boring posts. If yoy want to stay in the rumor mill, start producing some rumors oldtimer. No worries, I've had everyone fired!

future9er24

...tension mounts..... tune in next time for another episode of

Rumor Mill, now on SoapNet


seriosly folks, let get back to the stang

Evil_Capri

I wouldn't exactly call it a "jihad", and please fill in the environmental groups who have turned their backs specifically on Bill since he's been CEO.

The China "opportunity" (with opportunities always comes threats) has just as much to do with the layout of the political structure, and intellectual property sharing, if not more so, then having enough development funds.

Ford is not the only one who is cautious about China . .

mustang_sallad

Wow, i sorta respected you until i read that. Releasing one hybrid model and making plans for two more is a holy war? A bit of an exaggeration wouldn't you say? For once ford is keeping up with new technology that's on the verge of taking over the automotive industry and all you can say is that this is a bad thing because it actually benefits the environment. I don't think you understand what the word environment means, dude. Its not just some intangible thing that hippies care about. Maybe you live out in the boonies or something, but have you ever taken a deep breath downtown in a big city on a hot summer day? Not so good. In fact, a study by the toronto health department showed that air pollution causes 1700 pre-mature deaths each year in the city, plus an additional 6000 hospitalizations.

http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/health...and_health.htm

And it goes a little deeper than respiratory problems too. It was stated in a US governmental report that yes indeed global temperatures are rising and that yes our use of fossil fuels is largely to blame. The bush administration which used to claim that human activity was not responsible for these changes now admits they were wrong. check it out for yourself:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996334

It doesn't take a genius to realize that rising temperatures mean rising oceans which means a lot of trouble for the huge portion of the world's population that lives on the ocean.

And without people like Bill Ford who are in powerful positions and making responsible decisions, there's no reason any of this is gonna get any better. Why should it bother you? You know we're still gonna get our 450+hp cobra, we've already got our 300hp mustang and our Harley Davidson Super Duty. Does it bother you that this company is also making cars that run a bit more efficiently for those who actually care about that?


So to conclude, i'm still hoping that maybe by 2012, they'll have a special edition mustang with a v6 and a beefy electric motor that puts out 350lb-ft at a very low 0rpm. They could put all those lightning bolts on it, like the MRT sema car. They can call it the Mustang LIGHTNING! YEEHAW!

V10

I assume that you are referring to "Heavy Metal" the LS with the 4V Mod motor.

Yes you can shoe-horn a 4.6 Mod Motor into a LS, but a 4.6-4V cannot be installed in a LS from underneath the way engines & drivetrain are installed on a production line.

There is less than 1/2" clearance between the shock towers and a 4 cam mod motor on the LS, NOT acceptable for a production car.
AJ-V8 - 27" wide
4.6L 2V & 3V ~ 28.5" wide
4.6L 4V - 30" wide

On the other hand there are rumors that the LS will live on with a significant update for the 2007 model year. If true this is interesting because the 3.9 V8 is slated to go out of production by the end of 2006 calander year. If the LS lives on I wonder if it will get a 4.6L 3V or just become a V6 car with a 4L version of the Duratec 35.

78Mach1

I hope they build a mach 1.

78Mach1

They should bring back tangerine orange too.

muscleman

I havent read this whole thread but what about the Hurricane motor? I have heard about its development and it seems it would be a natural choice for the Mustang.

Regarding the F-body coming out- Its going to be a GTO, right? Or will the Camaro come back too? Cant wait to see 'em, I thikn I heard it could be Fall 05 as a MY 06 but not sure.

jwfisher

I agree with you, the term "jihad" was a quote from an article I read about Bill Ford earlier last week (it was positive). It's really an inapproprate use of the word.

I'm 100% behind these efforts by Ford, and they are even more expensive efforts than everything else Ford has going. But, they are absolutely crucial efforts for the longer term, and Ford has taken a great step in the right direction with the Escape (a huge peice of engineering, and a very interesting one too).

Leaving aside the electric hybid question for a moment, ultimately the quest for better emissions and milage is all about engine efficiency. If the engine ran at 100% efficiency (a physical impossiblility, but you can move in that direction for similar gains), there'd be zero toxic emissions and far better economy - and (for us here) there'd be fabulous performance. The 100 HP/liter that other brands get now would be on the very low end of what'd be available. This is what we got from the mod motor family, where instead of ye olden pushrods .48 (give to take) HP/liter we get around .69 - .84 depending on tune (nevermind for now that Honda has accomplished 120 HP/liter - thats from a lot more tech than Ford has). Personally, I'd like to see Ford do 100 HP/liter just to show they can. The mod motors were designed for it (architecturally), but it's not been done naturally aspirated.

The hybrid question can actually be an advantage for a performance car. Low end torque could be monstrous and instantaneous - unlike anything we've seen before. It's all a matter of applying technology which is in it's infancy right now. Very expensive technology, at least right now.

You'll also notice a subtle switch taking place in electric hybrid technology - a switch from pure milage to performance. The Accord Hybrid, for example, has more net power than the naturally aspirated version - from the combination of a smallerengine and an electric hybrid unit. Ther upcoming Lexus SUV has way more power than it's non-hybrid base model. By power, I mean adding the total of the HP of the electric motor and the gasoline engine. Even Ford's Hybrid Escape is marketed for performance, in a way, with the claim that it accelerates as fast as a V-6 model (of course in testing we know this isn't the case for 0-60, but it's close). Ford's hybrid system is in it's very first generation, 1-2 generations behind Toyota and Honda. You can bet there is a huge move to catch up.

Two issues that bother me are battery life and the air conditioning system. The Escapes air conditioner is run off the gasioline engine. When it turns off, the air turns off (unless it's on max, in which case the engine does not turn off). That's an issue here in Texas, one reason why I coudn't buy one even if I did want too. Other manufacturers have started running the air conditioning system electrically all the time (freeing up more HP from the gasoline engine, as a side benefit).

If we ever see a hybrid engine technology in this car, it'd be way out, near the end of the life for this platform (assuming that isn't another 25 years, like the rediculous FOX/SN95 platform). However, there are other fallouts from hybrid technology we could see... such as an electric power steering rack (technology taken from other car lines with Ford and used here). That would free up some HP, and simplyfy engine dressing. The move in other car lines is well under way here. We could also see some "semi-hybrid" technology, similar to what GM is using in some of it's V-8 trucks. They call it "hybrid", I don't. But it does have useful benefits.

Much more likely, though, we'll see cylinder deactivation in the mod motors. Ford has said in interviews that it exists in some form or another... it hasn't been shown yet to my knowledge. DC's Hemi engine (not rerally a hemi, only a marketing name) uses it already and it makes good sense. It's complicated, but it would enable us to cruise on fewer cylinders when we don't need them - saving gasoline for when we do. The switchover is all but instantaneous (compared to what your brain can register), there could easily be a defeat switch wired in. I think we'll see GM do this on the base Corvette engine now, and the Z06 followon later. It already exists in production form (coming to production very soon). This should not be seen as threatening for performance enthusiasts.

What does hybrid technology have to do with Mustangs... in direct terms nothing now, but everything in the longer term future. In indirect terms, there is a direct correlation between the development money Ford has to spend on *any* car line and the development money Ford must spend on other projects - China and Hyrbid in particular.

In terms of gasoline technology, there are varying levels of required and mandatory emissions compliance that have to be met. There are also other higher levels, we've seen a unique model of the Forcus with a 2.3 liter engine that meets far higher standards and delivers some excellent HP and torque numbers. In terms of product cycle, you can be sure the 4.6 3V sohc engine meets the required 50-state standards for probably 2 years, and is close for probabaly something like 4. Those standard used to be easy to remember (LEV and ULEV), now there are several more complex and hard to remember levels (after 6 hours on a plane and no coffee...). I've seen these standards for this engine, but don't have them handy at the moment.

So, my apologies for the use of the word. The original author probably should have used tear, mission, bent, quest, or something similar.

jwfisher

Or both? The new 3.5 engine is probably an expensive build... a bit more than the 3.0 DOHC. A heckuva lot more than the 4 liter SOHC truck engine in the base Mustang. It remains to be seen how long that engine will be in the Mustang... I would hope for no more than 2 years.

crazyhorse