jwfisher

So much purely wishful dreaming here... not based on any facts, much less any kind of viable business case. Nothing more than hearsay.

Funny - comparing a 5.4 3-valve with the Ford GT 4-valve engine, or wishing that kind of genetic advantage could be carried downstream into a considerably downmarket (and by necessity enormously cheaper to build) 5.4 3-valve.

Especially funny - the thought of having so many options on the Cobra. That kind of variation was dead a long time ago, and the lack of it is absolutely necessary for any kind of business case on low production models.

Laughable - the Cambird crowd claiming any kind of revival is coming in 2006 or 2007. And that the Mustang crowd has bought into this kind of stroking. Any kind of usable chassis doesn't even exist yet, and is too expensive for a cambird (or GTO). One that could be dumbed-down (as the DEW was to make the S197) has in fact has been moved out a few years.

All this speculation is nothing more than that. It makes for a fun thread to read, but it has zero reality.

iwantastang

I heard the new Camaro (no Firebird anymore) would be built off of the Zeta platform that GM has...anyone else hear that?

jwfisher

Sure, that's popular thinking. Except Zeta is just as expensive as a DEW is.... so it's have to be dumbed down. As was the Mustang platform, unfortunately. If Zeta is not dumbed down, then the Camaro will be very very expensive - well into the 30s for base.

iwantastang

2007 Camaro - Renders and Speculation

This is the only real thing I've read right now, but who knows. I like to hear that the Firebird is done and gone, one less car that the Mustang has to contend with. It looks like 2007 is shaping up to be a battle between Mustang, Camaro, and Charger for best "muscle car".

captin kapla

Isn't competition a good thing?

from http://autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101340

"GM has assigned its Australian subsidiary the design and engineering for a new generation of rear-wheel-drive cars on the Zeta architecture. Some, including a Buick sedan and a redesigned GTO, will be assembled in the United States. The Buick will be first in 2006."

slegos888

are you kidding? the charger? have you seen it its hideous and dosent throw back at all to the glory days of american muscle cars! heck its a 4dr now.

Steve

I believe that there is much more than simple 'heresay' in this thread. There may be a certain amount of speculation (hope, maybe?) in some posts but I think that there is much more actual fact here than you realize.

We'll see sooner or later, won't we? As for me, I think we're looking at a very high degree of accuracy relating to the info supplied, based entirely upon the source of information.

Other data:

The Camaro will definitely return and most likely in 2007. It will be an LS2 based engine, most likely in the realm of 325 to 350 HP for the Z/28 and ~400 for the SS.

The "Charger" is another issue altogether. Ugh! Hopefully, D/C will NOT build the concepts we've seen to date.

The 2005 GTO will definitely sell better than the 2004.

The 2006 Z06 Vette will be a monster of ~500 hp, possibly a few more.

And the new Cobra will still be king of the "Muscle Car" hill when the dust settles. ("Muscle car" as in seating more than 2 people, which the Vette/Viper do not do - obviously.)

crazyhorse

Jeff, if you didn't notice, this forum is titled "The Rumor Mill." You are entitled to your opinion, as are we. Until the facts are released, this is all we have to talk about for the next Cobra.

High level Ford execs such as J Mays, J Coletti, etc. have inferred some of these "facts" in interviews. There was a video of Mays about a year ago at a Mustang club (I think it was Deadhorse) meet stating there were plans in the works for a Mustang "around 500hp." If anybody has that, please post it for Jeff's viewing pleasure.

If you call SVT, they won't give you any straight facts, but, they enthusiastically state things like "incredible", "unbelievable" and "major improvements."

Of course this is all hopeful speculation but based on things we have seen in interviews, been told by "insiders" or just seems to make sense. Until Ford tells what we are getting, all we can do is "wishful dream."

jwfisher

Charger isn't a muscle car... it might be called a muscular sedan. It is well over 200 inches long... *huge*. Since it's just a slightly re-roofed 300C or Magnum, we already know what it will do: not much.

You'll note, too, that all the road tests of production cars show slower times than the earlier first tests... and all complain about the traction control system that can't be turned off and significantly affects handling. As much as I would have liked a Magnum to replace my daily driver Explorer, it's handling limits are so low and it's seats are so wide and it's size is so huge.....

jwfisher

The Charger has already been seen in public, it's well known what it looks like. See AutoWeek or various sites for pics of then sitting on the back of a delivery truck in Michigan somewhere.

Aka, it's a 300C with a grill similar to the Magnum and unique headlights. The roof has more slant to it, and the rear doors have a slight kickup. That's it. Same engines (with the exceptiuon fo the 2.7), same suspension, same wheel size, same brakes, same driveline.

No relationship whatsoever to any of the concepts that have been shown in years past.

jwfisher

Yea, I saw that, I saw the video, and I've met and talked to both Colletti and Scarpello. I've also talked to some of the OEM suppliers of the upcoming Cobra (details which I won't repeat).

Rumors/speculation - yes, that's all those posts were and it's what I'm pointing out. The original first post was nothing more than speculation based on alledged talks with somebody who alledgedly worked for a supplier of Ford. There was seriously conflicting data in the post that didn't make any sense at all. There are posts like this all over... there were very sumilar FUD posts on the 2005 nearly all turned out to be false. It's funt o see speculation - but it's laughable to see people who suppossedly (or so they claim) know it all stating what they believe are facts. Those people always dissappear ffrom the forums right about the same time the car is announced officially.

We're also all talking about an engine that isn't even particularly desirable... ultra long rod length (the longest of any Ford V-8 engine ever), restrictive breathing (can't be fixed, tiny valves are all that fit the bore), taller deck height, higher CG (especially with a supercharger and associated parts on top). Had to be seriously seriously beefed up for the Ford GT - at *enormous* huge gigantic expense. Way too much for ever being used in a Cobra - in Ford GT form that is. If we do get it, it will be a downgraded version... and that startes to raise very serious questions:

• aluminum block - not used by any other production engine so costs can't be shared. Only alternative is ye olde iron block, and there goes the weight balance straight to heck (example: '03/04 Cobra compared to 99/01 - I've had both and the 03/04 is a pig compared to the earlier aluminum-block cars).
• unique heads - not used by any other engine so costs and production volume benefits can't be shared ('03/4 Cobra heads are shared by Marauder/Aviator/Mach).
• dry sump oiling - extremely expensive for a production engine - will certainly be dropped. Then we'll be left with the same oiling problems we have now.
• on and on - there are many SAE papers and some books that describe all of this in detail. I have them all.

Not to mention that this huge engine will be stuffed into a small and cramped engine compartment. It's only 1 inch wider on each side than an SN95 bay... and only a tiny bit longer. The grill is considerably larger, sure (at the cost of aero), but there is a limit as to what can be flowed out of the compartment.

Note, too, that the costs of the Ford GT engine are of course directly reflected in the total cost of the car. As were the costs of the development and testing. Resulting in a very expensive car. Now take a look at the budget for developing a Cobra. No matter how much we all want this stuff... all of it would enormously increase the cost of the car - as well as the costs of developing the car. Are we all sure we want a Cobra that costs 70-80k? That's what a Cobra with a Ford GT engine would cost... also including the development and testing costs, costs of a proper rear suspension and a grafted-on SLA front suspension (don't believe the chief engineer's statement that it wouldn't fit - it was cost pure and simple). Or, do we want a Cobra that costs, say, 39,995 in 2007 dollars? What would have to come out of it to get it down there? Lots and lots of parts... and lots and lots of testing. Lte's say it costs 45,995 - how many of you are realistically ready to expense that? According to the demographics, very very very few of you.

That last part is the worst... the quality of the Cobras right from the start has been really terrible... granted, some of that was inhgerent in ye olden SN95 platform with all of it's godawful inherent flaws... but a lot of it was also due to lack of testing (aka budget). The amount of testing is reflected back in the price of the car.

As an example, I've had 4 SVTs and live in Texas. Every single one of them has had absolutely godawful cooling... even the weak-kneed underpowered '94. The '96 was inexcusably terrible - the engineers that did that one should all be fired. As readers may know, SVT recalled them all and replaced the entire cooling system (also modified the grill - removed it - for more airflow). The '99 was abit better but still pegged it's gauge in traffic (or, more reliable, when properly instructed, went way up into the 200s without sufficient airflow in traffic - and never mind how lousy it did on the roadcourse). The '03/04 was similarly poor. I don't want anything like any of these pieces of junk ever again - cars you can't even drive somewhere in the summer without experiencing cooling issues (minimum = air conditioner gets hot; maximum - coolant garks out). Crappy engineering. I remember seeing an article in a magazine int he fall of '95 where they interviewed an engineer who had been driving a '96 Cobra prototype on Ford's high speed banked test track in Arizona (ever seen it - I have). I had gone out and ordered what turned out to be the very first '96 in Texas based on a long talk I had with Coletti in August of '95 (my second talk with him, the first was in ;late 92 concerning then then-secret Sn95) - where he brought a prototype and showed it in public. I was in awe of the 4.6 DOHC Cobra engine (and they even - illegally - let me drive it briefly). I took delivery of it (after several production delays) and had it out to an Open Track event (keeping RPMs very low) within a week of delivery. GREAT engine (same lousy suspension issues). Then a hot dasy came and the problem started. Then the T-45 fell apart (another severe '96-98 problem that demonstartes lack of testing or lack of care). Thanks to a chance meeting at SEMA with the SVE engineer who owned the cooling recall program, I got the first production (versus pre-production) cooling kit in the state. It worked... sort of. The engine didn't overheat anymore...but the effectiveness of the aircon was seriously deminished (a fatal flaw in anything you have to drive in this state). Fast forward to '99 - where I took another chance due to the new (and soon to be discovered flawed IRS) - and even more engine problems. Lack of HP. Indicates anothe3r lack of testing and development - this time (alledgedly) loosing track of the specs in the production process. Talked to the same SVE contact, got the first kit in Texas, engine improved. Next spring the car got hot again in traffic. Huge sigh. Naively bought an '03 (4 times out shame on me) and found all the same issues again. Fortunately, this time I waited (rather than be first), so I didnt' get the valve knock problem, and I didnt' get the early '03 lousy tune.

Yikes, it goes on and one... the big question will be whether or not this new car is any better. It's got to be bulletproof.... thaere is a lot of other far better built cars out there... and cars with FAR less compromise in their suspensions.

So, last thing I want is a physically large engine in a small engine compartment. Second last thing I want is an engine with a lot of weight up high (the heat-inducing supercharger) and an engine that weighs more (the 2005 Mustang GT's weight balance is reasonable - not great - now and I don't want it any worse).

I drive a heckuva lot of cars in my position as an instructor... I also spent a number of years driving a TT Supra on track (25 pounds of boost, 440 RW HP, and no engine cooling issues whatsoever in the Texas heat) and some other cars (none of which had cooling issues). It was a fabulous and well-engineered car (sharing chassis and major parts with other cars to keep costs in line - only the exchange rate hurt it in the end).

Why can't Ford do as well? Or certainly a helluva lot better than it is now.

I've been naive... I've been co-opted by all the cool stuff Ford has done to the car. I had 12 late model FOX and SN95s over 24 years - nearly every single one of significance (even an SVO). I've auto-crossed and open tracked most of them, and many have been nicely cost-effective (especially in the earlier years; the late cars really aren't technically competent for open track usage anymore).

I've had enough - unless Ford does some serious engineering and testing work (for a change). My opinion of Ford engineering has taken a serious hit... I know they are capable of doing far better but I just don't see it in regular production Mustangs/Cobras. I do see good progress in other cars - the Five Hundred is a great piece of work (not all of it done in Dearborn), and I see a lot more good stuff coming. But, not - so far - in this product line.

crazyhorse

Wow,

I had a feeling there was more to this than not believing the rumors.

I am glad to know you have issues with the SVT products. These things are always a concern. Both of my previous Mustangs have been rock solid (neither were SVT).

I am worried about quality, but, If this car has the power it is rumored to have, I'll take my chances.

If you read my early post in here, I, too, doubted the source. I have seen things like this frequently as well. But, you have to admit, it is fun to speculate and you are obviously interested in another Cobra or you wouldn't be here reading and responding to the forum.

TomServo92

I just wanted to throw my 2 cents into this:

1. Camaro - Until GM actually announces it's coming back, it's just rumor and hearsay.

2. GTO - It may sell better but not drastically so. GM has already announce they're cutting 2005 production. Currently they've sold approx. 10,000 GTOs with a 167 days of inventory stockpiled. They cut production back to 12,000 so it doesn't sound like they're too optimistic that 2005 will be better.

3. Z06 - GM has already announced this I believe. Nothing new here.

4. Cobra - We can only hope!

97RedSnake

jwfisher, i would quote your entire post, but i didn't want to take up that amount of space again.

I simply want to point out the fact that you are bashing the person who started this thread for having alleged inside information. Then you go on to name-drop a number of times about meetings you allegedly had with Colletti and Scarpello. Why exactly should we believe you and not Steve?

In fact, Steve has said numerous times to take all his info with a grain of salt.

You obviously have some serious issues with Ford and SVT in particular. My advice to you would be to avoid their products in the future, and avoid this forum as well. You obviously feel that Ford is incapable of building a Cobra that you would want to buy, so why do everything you can to discredit people you don't know who are simply providing information and discussing rumors?

I haven't even mentioned the fact that you have a total of 5 posts here. There is a term that comes to mind that describes people who post on a forum just to start arguments. It is called a troll. I don't know if that term fits you, but an argument could certainly be made for it at this point. I normally avoid starting conflicts with people in forums, but you are posting derogatory things about members who have given you no reason.

In closing, let me say that i find it amusing that you are obviously the biggest buyer of SVT products in Texas , yet you repeatedly explain how every vehicle you bought dissappointed you. What kind of idiot keeps going back for more, when they were unhappy with the last 3 products from a company? Anyway, i am sure i will get a reply full of anger, and that is fine. And, if i am completely off base here, i apologize. But, you showed up on this forum in a really bad way and bashed a guy for posting a rumor in a section entitled The Rumor Mill!

Dan460

I currently have an 03 with minor mods(about 430RWHP) and had an 01 and 97 Cobra and 93 Lightning and never had any major problems with any of them. The wheel hop in the 03 has been the biggest problem and I have just been too lazy to fix it with upgraded parts. I've never had any overheating problems with any of them. I'm trading my 03 in for an 05 I ordered a couple weeks ago and I'll probably upgrade to the next Cobra without hesitation.

For the next Cobra engine, I'm sure it'll be a monster whether it's a 4.6 or a 5.4. Long rods are a good thing by the way. The dwell time around TDC is longer which usually lets you get away with lower octane gas and you get more power from the given release of energy. This is why a lot of engine builders like to build "long rod" 302s or 351s because they can make more power with lower price heads and get away with higher compression on the street. If Ford used parts like the aluminum 5.4 block from the GT engine they can spread out the development cost across more platforms which I understand is a common practice. The profit from the Cobra and Lightning could help pay the development costs.

But what do I know, I'm just a crazy Mustang/Ford fanatic

Steve

Jeff - first of all, it is too bad that you are so cynical about the upcoming 197-based Cobra. But, after reading all your poor experiences (assuming they are true), I can see why. However, as 97RedSnake posted - why do you keep coming back to SVT if they have done that poorly for you?

Secondly - I have never, ever stated that what I was told was fact or that you could take the info to the Ford Dealer and order precisely what my source has told me. I too am extremely cautious about believing all I read or hear until I can put my hands on the finished product. But that does not necessarily make what "John" has said to be any more or less true - it is simply unverified information at this point. No more; no less.

But to clarify - what I posted is not information from someone who works as a supplier to Ford - he works for SVT and SEEMS to be a potentially reliable source. More on this later...

Your disputing the information given is actually only based upon one thing we all have - an opinion. You believe that much of what I was told and then posted here to be inaccurate or conflicting, yet you can not cite factual evidence to the contrary, correct? You have no actual in-house documents that prove/disprove anything here but you do choose to cite supposed vendors with SVT ties that you can not reveal.

Is that not heresay as well? Certainly, it is. And of course, you are indeed entitled to your opinion. But that does not make yours right and all others wrong does it? You waxed long and eloquently about why Ford should do this or won't do that but offer no proof; only saying things about what you think or that you do not want.

Where's the proof in that, Jeff?

You even go on to flame me a little bit by saying, "It's fun to see speculation - but it's laughable to see people who suppossedly (or so they claim) know it all stating what they believe are facts. Those people always dissappear ffrom the forums right about the same time the car is announced officially." Why would you do that, Jeff? Again, that is simply your opinion. No more; no less. And therefore as valuable or worthless as you think others' opinions are.

As far as "disappearing about the same time the car is announced officially" - well, you will be disappointed when that doesn't happen if that is your belief.

Again - I have NEVER stated anywhere in any of the posts that what I was told was certifiable facts. I only relayed what I was told. I DO believe the info has a high probability of being true but probability is not the same as saying it is fact. If that is what you thought I was saying, you are wrong.

Then, you go on to deliver a littany of reasons why the Cobras are: 1)Deficient in cooling and overall quality; 2)Not going to be ANYthing like the Mules that are most likely REAL; 3)Can not have an engine that is Ford GT Based; and 4)Will be so far removed from the information relayed in this forum as to be laughable.

So, even IF all you say is true, I ask you again - where is YOUR proof? I have said from the beginning that the information I relayed here is not verified; only that it DOES come from an actual SVT employee. Not a vendor to SVT; from an SVT employee who puts in 40+ hours per week in the confines of SVT proper. There are three different possibilities regarding what he has said: 1) It is all true; 2) it is all a lie; and 3) It is somewhere in the middle. I think that most likely what he has said is closer to the truth than to an outright lie or deception. So, we'll eventually see, won't we/

Again, it's too bad you've had unsatisfactory experiences with SVT Cobra's so far. But I am sure of one thing - your experiences are in the small minority. An overwhelming majority of SVT Cobra owners (my son is one) are ecstatically happy.

In closing, it sounds like you are a very disappointed, cynical SVT Cobra owner ("I don't want anything like these pieces of junk again"). And while that may be understandable, it obviously 'colors' the quality of your posts in a negative fashion.

And that isn't 'heresay'. It's fact. So, if you have any more of a problem with my post(s), I invite you to either PM me or email me and we can discuss this further without wasting bandwidth debating opinions or heresay, ok?

crazyhorse

crispy23c

Well said.

JW, all you do is flame every time you post, and rant about how aweful your Mustangs have been. If you hate them so much, why even bother???

This thread is titled "The Rumor Mill" Get it? Lighten up, man!

Steve, thanks for the info.
This matches up with alot of info I have seen/heard from a number of sources, and even helped me to make sense of (some of) them!

The only other thing I heard that I would like to comment on..........possible order for Cobra December '05 for June '06 as an '07.

Clutch

I enjoy the rumor mill, it gives me something to chew while we wait for Ford to start talking! It would be great to be able to go back to these threads and find out who was right about what and when, but when Ford starts talking, I think most of us will be tied up at the order desk! Steve, if you're lying threw your teeth,.......keep it up, I'm enjoying your posts .

Ring, ring ....... Hello SVT?......any news on the Cobra yet? NO How bout now? NO OK, How bout now?.......NO

Alrighty than, back to the rumors, Steve, Steve, Steve where are you!

Steve

Well, I can assure you that I'm not making ANYthing up. Now, what "John" is saying has yet to be verified but I'm only relaying what he told me here so it's not like these are 'my' accounts.

I do agree though that it will be interesting to come back to these threads once the car is actually officially announced and see who was right or wrong. Time will tell!

Either way, it sure is hope-inducing to read/hear some of this stuff!