X-Charger X-Spec complete technical review...w/dynosheets
5/2/06, 06:02 AM
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Hey guys,
Sorry for the delays, I got in about 10pm last night after 8 hours on a plane and had to get up and be at the dyno, 1.5 hours away, at noon for a Sean Highland Paxton S/C 02 GT.
The numbers with the kit with a GT MAF housing and 3.0 inch pulley making 5-7 lbs of boost were 250rwhp and 262 rwtq from the dynojet sheets. When I load it into my Winpep7 runviewer it shows a tad bit less at 247 rwhp but still 262 rwtq, it's just funny like that from the dynosoftware to the Runviewer Software, I have no idea why?
From there I also added some of my own adjustments in which the throttle is alot more responsive and the transmission shifting is improved. I can't take the credit for the valet tune as it was all Tom's idea, hahaaa.
The neat part was we also got to try a new air intake on the kit. This proved to add about 5 rwhp and the same in torque. Also the intake temps while cruising were about 10 degree's cooler, this was after the s/c so it was true intake temps. I would like to dispel the rumors about the MP90 cooking the air while cruising and at higher boost. Normal NON-intercooled air temps on a S/C system run around 130-160 degree's. Once you hit 160 then you are just blowing hot air and not making any power. With the GT air box the kit cruised at 130-140 and under boost went to 152 at max under boost at 6200 rpm's. With the X-Spec air intake the temps were 120-135 at normal cruise and 145-150 under boost, around 5-7psi. Even with the addition of the 2.80 pulley on the dyno we didn't see any higher then 155 at full boost with the GT MAF setup.
On a Paxton Novi 2000 today while cruising his air temps were 160-170 degree's, mainly because he didn't have any type of air cooler or even bypass valve. This was OFF boost.
Power! or Torque rather. The most impressive part of this kit was the Torque curve, or should I say shelf. It was pretty flat across the board as expected from any roots or twin screw system. The boost came in when you hit about half throttle and started off at 5.5 psi and as the Rpm's increased at about 4800 rpm's the boost climbed upto 7 psi with the 3.0 pulley. With the 2.8 pulley was good for about another 1.5 psi of boost everywhere, it started at 6.5 and climbed as high as 9.5 psi. Still the air temps were great at 140-150 and the power was climbing, we made 259 rwhp with the 2.8 pulley but we started the dynopull later in the RPM range so it showed a bit less torque at 255 rwtq but I would imagine a pull started at 2200 rpm's would show higher results on the Tq numbers.
Comparisons. After calling both Vortech and Procharger today and doing some math I found some interesting results.
First, Vortech, I spoke with Chris there as he was very helpful and he said with the new tuning they estimate 290 FLYWHEEL hp and he didn't say what Torque, this is with the NON-aftercooled system. If it is like most other centrifugal systems that I've tuned I would say the Torque would be lower then the HP, it's just a given with the type of Supercharger it is. For example, most S/C 99-04 GT's with the right parts and my tuning make 390 rwhp and 370 rwtq. The Paxton S/C car today with cams and a forged bottom end made 441rwhp and 397 rwtq. To compare it with a 05' GT, I've tuned two manuals, one at 444rwhp and 377 rwtq and the other at 467 rwhp and 390 rwtq. Onc automatic 06' at 444rwhp and 370 rwtq. Chris said that all numbers quoted from Vortech are flywheel rated numbers. I would also imagine that the Vortech numbers are made with a manual car, but this is just an estimate, maybe MSP can elaborate more?
Next ProCharger, I didn't get her name but there again very nice and helpful and they state with their base system a gain of 50-55% and with the upgraded system 60-65%. They wouldn't give any numbers as they say every car is different. They did say that their base kit doesn't come with upgraded injectors but the Hi-po kit does.
So from what I take of that let's do some math using rear wheel numbers. Base automatic V6's make around 170 rwhp give or take 5 rwhp. 250rwhp-170 rwhp= 80rwhp, or 47% +/- 5%. So with the 4.0 the X-Charger is right where the others are at, no less, even with the automatic. I would like to estimate that the Manual car will do better but at the same time it should start off better too so the percentage gains will most likely be the same.
The Flywheel numbers for this kit with a automatic and a conservative 20%, most say 24-25% for the auto's, are 300hp and 315 Tq, right there with the flywheel numbers from a GT.
The biggest thing to get with all of this is the actual datalogging math. After the dyno session Dave and I really hit it hard trying to figure out why or better yet how to get this kit upto 300rwhp. After reviewing the datalogging sheets were found that the engine was running at 1.35-1.4 load. To explain this better an engine is rated at how much air it will flow at max at 1.0, anything above that is higher then 1.0 because it is forced into the engine. So with this kit the engine is flowing 1.35 to 1.40 load or 35-40% more air. Back to the math adding 35-40% to the engine's HP output and you are right at where we are, 240-250 rwhp. So mathematically the kit is 100%. Also, for this kit to be running that low of a load it is alot easier on the engine and will allow for years and miles of trouble free power for your engine.
It would require double the amount of airflow through the engine to come out with more then 300rwhp, at the right conditions as well. You can't put a 2.0 pulley on this MP90 and expect it because the air temps would be too hot. You could add a shot of nitrous and then you would cool the air and compact it more thus flowing more air. Then you would require additional tuning as well because you would need to run less spark but that's a whole different issue. The more power the more tuning the less life expectancy as well. Now if you are running nothing but nitrous this doesn't apply fully as nitrous has a different tuning curve but there again I don't want to get into it here.
So, in conclusion, I think the X-Charger is going to be a great kit with excellent power potential and longevity. This kit can be installed in less then a day and you can head to the drag strip that night or just drive it around to feel the added power. This kit comes with 39lbs injectors so you are fully covered in the fuel delivery and if you do decide to modify your engine more the smaller pulley can be added along with a different air intake to further your performance even more. It is equal to every kit on the market today with power and maybe even exceeds some with Torque but that can vary between vehicles. I can say from driving it the power delivery far exceeds my expectations as it comes in from any RPM you hit it, no waiting for the rev's to come on before it finally hits boost.
I would like to thank Tom and apologize to his son for the delay for getting the car to him, dang pulley pullers [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] . Tom is a great guy and his car is definitely yellow, as for the bee from the rear view, well that's a bit much for me, hahahaa. It does fly, I mean the car and the bee!
Thanks, Doug904.
P.S. Ferris Beuller Valet doesn't have nothing on Dave! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eek.gif[/img]
If you'll look at the top right hand corner you'll see the correction factor is SAE.
3.0 Pulley Dynosheet GT intake
2.8 Pulley w/X-spec intake
Sorry for the delays, I got in about 10pm last night after 8 hours on a plane and had to get up and be at the dyno, 1.5 hours away, at noon for a Sean Highland Paxton S/C 02 GT.
The numbers with the kit with a GT MAF housing and 3.0 inch pulley making 5-7 lbs of boost were 250rwhp and 262 rwtq from the dynojet sheets. When I load it into my Winpep7 runviewer it shows a tad bit less at 247 rwhp but still 262 rwtq, it's just funny like that from the dynosoftware to the Runviewer Software, I have no idea why?
From there I also added some of my own adjustments in which the throttle is alot more responsive and the transmission shifting is improved. I can't take the credit for the valet tune as it was all Tom's idea, hahaaa.
The neat part was we also got to try a new air intake on the kit. This proved to add about 5 rwhp and the same in torque. Also the intake temps while cruising were about 10 degree's cooler, this was after the s/c so it was true intake temps. I would like to dispel the rumors about the MP90 cooking the air while cruising and at higher boost. Normal NON-intercooled air temps on a S/C system run around 130-160 degree's. Once you hit 160 then you are just blowing hot air and not making any power. With the GT air box the kit cruised at 130-140 and under boost went to 152 at max under boost at 6200 rpm's. With the X-Spec air intake the temps were 120-135 at normal cruise and 145-150 under boost, around 5-7psi. Even with the addition of the 2.80 pulley on the dyno we didn't see any higher then 155 at full boost with the GT MAF setup.
On a Paxton Novi 2000 today while cruising his air temps were 160-170 degree's, mainly because he didn't have any type of air cooler or even bypass valve. This was OFF boost.
Power! or Torque rather. The most impressive part of this kit was the Torque curve, or should I say shelf. It was pretty flat across the board as expected from any roots or twin screw system. The boost came in when you hit about half throttle and started off at 5.5 psi and as the Rpm's increased at about 4800 rpm's the boost climbed upto 7 psi with the 3.0 pulley. With the 2.8 pulley was good for about another 1.5 psi of boost everywhere, it started at 6.5 and climbed as high as 9.5 psi. Still the air temps were great at 140-150 and the power was climbing, we made 259 rwhp with the 2.8 pulley but we started the dynopull later in the RPM range so it showed a bit less torque at 255 rwtq but I would imagine a pull started at 2200 rpm's would show higher results on the Tq numbers.
Comparisons. After calling both Vortech and Procharger today and doing some math I found some interesting results.
First, Vortech, I spoke with Chris there as he was very helpful and he said with the new tuning they estimate 290 FLYWHEEL hp and he didn't say what Torque, this is with the NON-aftercooled system. If it is like most other centrifugal systems that I've tuned I would say the Torque would be lower then the HP, it's just a given with the type of Supercharger it is. For example, most S/C 99-04 GT's with the right parts and my tuning make 390 rwhp and 370 rwtq. The Paxton S/C car today with cams and a forged bottom end made 441rwhp and 397 rwtq. To compare it with a 05' GT, I've tuned two manuals, one at 444rwhp and 377 rwtq and the other at 467 rwhp and 390 rwtq. Onc automatic 06' at 444rwhp and 370 rwtq. Chris said that all numbers quoted from Vortech are flywheel rated numbers. I would also imagine that the Vortech numbers are made with a manual car, but this is just an estimate, maybe MSP can elaborate more?
Next ProCharger, I didn't get her name but there again very nice and helpful and they state with their base system a gain of 50-55% and with the upgraded system 60-65%. They wouldn't give any numbers as they say every car is different. They did say that their base kit doesn't come with upgraded injectors but the Hi-po kit does.
So from what I take of that let's do some math using rear wheel numbers. Base automatic V6's make around 170 rwhp give or take 5 rwhp. 250rwhp-170 rwhp= 80rwhp, or 47% +/- 5%. So with the 4.0 the X-Charger is right where the others are at, no less, even with the automatic. I would like to estimate that the Manual car will do better but at the same time it should start off better too so the percentage gains will most likely be the same.
The Flywheel numbers for this kit with a automatic and a conservative 20%, most say 24-25% for the auto's, are 300hp and 315 Tq, right there with the flywheel numbers from a GT.
The biggest thing to get with all of this is the actual datalogging math. After the dyno session Dave and I really hit it hard trying to figure out why or better yet how to get this kit upto 300rwhp. After reviewing the datalogging sheets were found that the engine was running at 1.35-1.4 load. To explain this better an engine is rated at how much air it will flow at max at 1.0, anything above that is higher then 1.0 because it is forced into the engine. So with this kit the engine is flowing 1.35 to 1.40 load or 35-40% more air. Back to the math adding 35-40% to the engine's HP output and you are right at where we are, 240-250 rwhp. So mathematically the kit is 100%. Also, for this kit to be running that low of a load it is alot easier on the engine and will allow for years and miles of trouble free power for your engine.
It would require double the amount of airflow through the engine to come out with more then 300rwhp, at the right conditions as well. You can't put a 2.0 pulley on this MP90 and expect it because the air temps would be too hot. You could add a shot of nitrous and then you would cool the air and compact it more thus flowing more air. Then you would require additional tuning as well because you would need to run less spark but that's a whole different issue. The more power the more tuning the less life expectancy as well. Now if you are running nothing but nitrous this doesn't apply fully as nitrous has a different tuning curve but there again I don't want to get into it here.
So, in conclusion, I think the X-Charger is going to be a great kit with excellent power potential and longevity. This kit can be installed in less then a day and you can head to the drag strip that night or just drive it around to feel the added power. This kit comes with 39lbs injectors so you are fully covered in the fuel delivery and if you do decide to modify your engine more the smaller pulley can be added along with a different air intake to further your performance even more. It is equal to every kit on the market today with power and maybe even exceeds some with Torque but that can vary between vehicles. I can say from driving it the power delivery far exceeds my expectations as it comes in from any RPM you hit it, no waiting for the rev's to come on before it finally hits boost.
I would like to thank Tom and apologize to his son for the delay for getting the car to him, dang pulley pullers [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img] . Tom is a great guy and his car is definitely yellow, as for the bee from the rear view, well that's a bit much for me, hahahaa. It does fly, I mean the car and the bee!
Thanks, Doug904.
P.S. Ferris Beuller Valet doesn't have nothing on Dave! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/eek.gif[/img]
If you'll look at the top right hand corner you'll see the correction factor is SAE.
3.0 Pulley Dynosheet GT intake
2.8 Pulley w/X-spec intake
5/2/06, 09:14 AM
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Doug... thanks once again for the brilliant write-up and all of your efforts. The torque "shelf" is very impressive! The numbers really are right on up there with other superchargers.
It would be nifty to compare the X-charger dyno's to a stock GT.
Is there any chance of getting a pic with the finished prodcut with the new intake?
Anways... sounds like a brilliant setup for a long-lasting daily driver. Nice job!
It would be nifty to compare the X-charger dyno's to a stock GT.
Is there any chance of getting a pic with the finished prodcut with the new intake?
Anways... sounds like a brilliant setup for a long-lasting daily driver. Nice job!
5/2/06, 09:17 AM
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Sounds pretty good.. Im really glad to finally see the numbers on this thing.. Man I wish I had money. *sigh*
I hope we dont start having engines going like the GTs are under boost. Its reassuring to hear 'long lasting' in there.
I hope we dont start having engines going like the GTs are under boost. Its reassuring to hear 'long lasting' in there.
5/2/06, 12:13 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hamidlmt @ May 2, 2006, 10:17 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Doug... thanks once again for the brilliant write-up and all of your efforts. The torque "shelf" is very impressive! The numbers really are right on up there with other superchargers.
It would be nifty to compare the X-charger dyno's to a stock GT.
Is there any chance of getting a pic with the finished prodcut with the new intake?
Anways... sounds like a brilliant setup for a long-lasting daily driver. Nice job!
[/b][/quote]
The intake isn't quite finished yet so we dont have anything for that, I'll check and see if Dave has anything.
As for the GT comparison no problem, I have plenty of automatic GT baselines with my car and others.
The Run in Green is the GT and the run in blue is the X-charger. They look very close with a few differences, the baseline pull was alot shorter so its not a real good comparison down low but the numbers upto are close.
Automatic GT factory baseline VS X-charger Automatic
Doug... thanks once again for the brilliant write-up and all of your efforts. The torque "shelf" is very impressive! The numbers really are right on up there with other superchargers.
It would be nifty to compare the X-charger dyno's to a stock GT.
Is there any chance of getting a pic with the finished prodcut with the new intake?
Anways... sounds like a brilliant setup for a long-lasting daily driver. Nice job!
[/b][/quote]
The intake isn't quite finished yet so we dont have anything for that, I'll check and see if Dave has anything.
As for the GT comparison no problem, I have plenty of automatic GT baselines with my car and others.
The Run in Green is the GT and the run in blue is the X-charger. They look very close with a few differences, the baseline pull was alot shorter so its not a real good comparison down low but the numbers upto are close.
Automatic GT factory baseline VS X-charger Automatic
5/2/06, 12:20 PM
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Nice review Doug! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] I know its going to be a very good and reliable product.. What are your impressions on running a Water/Meth injection or NOS? How do you think the two could impact the final numbers?
5/2/06, 12:24 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 2, 2006, 11:16 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The intake isn't quite finished yet so we dont have anything for that, I'll check and see if Dave has anything.
As for the GT comparison no problem, I have plenty of automatic GT baselines with my car and others.
The Run in Green is the GT and the run in blue is the X-charger. They look very close with a few differences, the baseline pull was alot shorter so its not a real good comparison down low but the numbers upto are close.
Automatic GT factory baseline VS X-charger Automatic
[/b][/quote]
Wow! It's nearly identical to the GT! Thank you!
So, I think it's pretty safe to assume that with the X-charger you'll basically run side by side with a stock GT. It actually appears that the X-charger makes more power down low, so ya might just get the jump on the GT!
Gears, a limited slip, exhaust and an X-charger would make the little 4.0L something to be reckoned with!
The intake isn't quite finished yet so we dont have anything for that, I'll check and see if Dave has anything.
As for the GT comparison no problem, I have plenty of automatic GT baselines with my car and others.
The Run in Green is the GT and the run in blue is the X-charger. They look very close with a few differences, the baseline pull was alot shorter so its not a real good comparison down low but the numbers upto are close.
Automatic GT factory baseline VS X-charger Automatic
[/b][/quote]
Wow! It's nearly identical to the GT! Thank you!
So, I think it's pretty safe to assume that with the X-charger you'll basically run side by side with a stock GT. It actually appears that the X-charger makes more power down low, so ya might just get the jump on the GT!
Gears, a limited slip, exhaust and an X-charger would make the little 4.0L something to be reckoned with!
5/2/06, 05:04 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BlackLX4.0 @ May 2, 2006, 4:10 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
So is the 2.80 pulley going on the "hi-po" version? Is the second dyno what we can expect of the hi-po kit? Any ideas on price for the hi-po kit?
[/b][/quote]
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What are your impressions on running a Water/Meth injection or NOS? How do you think the two could impact the final numbers? [/b][/quote]
I think there is some more room for improvement with the Water/Meth injection as if you can lower the air temps to around 100 degree's or less then you will definatly gain some Hp. There could be another 10-15 rwhp from this type of injection depending on the size. With Nitrous, well you can gain as much as you like but there you have to worry about longevity of the engine. I truly beleive that once you get around the 300-350 rwhp mark you decrease your engine life tremendously with the stock components and this kit is designed for guy who wants to add power and not have to worry about his stuff breaking down on him. Of course we are all exceptions to the rule, if I had a V6 it would be at 300 rwhp no doubt but at the same time I wouldn't expect the head gaskets or the piston crowns to last very long either.
The one thing I've learned from my own personal experience with Water/Meth injection on a Whipplecharged truck I had was you will run out and most of the time it's when you want/need it. I used my washer tank on my ranger which was dang near gallon sized and it still ran out rather quickly.
With water injection, depending on the quanity you are spraying, you dont need any additional tuning as the water simply cools the air charge but with methanol injection it will require tuning because the methanol burns and can cause the a/f ratio to go leaner then normal. So if you were to use this type you would require additional tuning. As with anything though, a trip to the dyno wouldn't hurt in any case.
Thanks, Doug.
So is the 2.80 pulley going on the "hi-po" version? Is the second dyno what we can expect of the hi-po kit? Any ideas on price for the hi-po kit?
[/b][/quote]
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What are your impressions on running a Water/Meth injection or NOS? How do you think the two could impact the final numbers? [/b][/quote]
I think there is some more room for improvement with the Water/Meth injection as if you can lower the air temps to around 100 degree's or less then you will definatly gain some Hp. There could be another 10-15 rwhp from this type of injection depending on the size. With Nitrous, well you can gain as much as you like but there you have to worry about longevity of the engine. I truly beleive that once you get around the 300-350 rwhp mark you decrease your engine life tremendously with the stock components and this kit is designed for guy who wants to add power and not have to worry about his stuff breaking down on him. Of course we are all exceptions to the rule, if I had a V6 it would be at 300 rwhp no doubt but at the same time I wouldn't expect the head gaskets or the piston crowns to last very long either.
The one thing I've learned from my own personal experience with Water/Meth injection on a Whipplecharged truck I had was you will run out and most of the time it's when you want/need it. I used my washer tank on my ranger which was dang near gallon sized and it still ran out rather quickly.
With water injection, depending on the quanity you are spraying, you dont need any additional tuning as the water simply cools the air charge but with methanol injection it will require tuning because the methanol burns and can cause the a/f ratio to go leaner then normal. So if you were to use this type you would require additional tuning. As with anything though, a trip to the dyno wouldn't hurt in any case.
Thanks, Doug.
5/2/06, 05:29 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 2, 2006, 4:07 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
I think there is some more room for improvement with the Water/Meth injection as if you can lower the air temps to around 100 degree's or less then you will definatly gain some Hp. There could be another 10-15 rwhp from this type of injection depending on the size. With Nitrous, well you can gain as much as you like but there you have to worry about longevity of the engine. I truly beleive that once you get around the 300-350 rwhp mark you decrease your engine life tremendously with the stock components and this kit is designed for guy who wants to add power and not have to worry about his stuff breaking down on him. Of course we are all exceptions to the rule, if I had a V6 it would be at 300 rwhp no doubt but at the same time I wouldn't expect the head gaskets or the piston crowns to last very long either.
The one thing I've learned from my own personal experience with Water/Meth injection on a Whipplecharged truck I had was you will run out and most of the time it's when you want/need it. I used my washer tank on my ranger which was dang near gallon sized and it still ran out rather quickly.
With water injection, depending on the quanity you are spraying, you dont need any additional tuning as the water simply cools the air charge but with methanol injection it will require tuning because the methanol burns and can cause the a/f ratio to go leaner then normal. So if you were to use this type you would require additional tuning. As with anything though, a trip to the dyno wouldn't hurt in any case.
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks Doug904! I figured at the very least he should install a water injection kit and set it to spray between 5-7psi of boost using a 9psi pulley.. Atleast you can just run to the kitchen sink every other day and fill the water tank.
I honestly think Afixer should at a very minimum add the water injection.. This will give him back 15 to 16rwhp making his numbers 266 to 270RWHP.. Plus it should move the TQ up abit as well... No extra tunning needed..
When he goes to the track, he can simply buy a modified tune from BAMAchips and use the meth injection.. The tune may get him a ticket before he gets to the track, so I would advise him to program once on private track property! LOL!
So in short to sum up Dougs insightfull post.. At the very least, a water injection kit couldnt hurt, unless it runs out when that 05GT with a BAMACHIPS tune pulls up next to you.. LOL!! That baby is pushing 280 to 290RWHP.... LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
I think there is some more room for improvement with the Water/Meth injection as if you can lower the air temps to around 100 degree's or less then you will definatly gain some Hp. There could be another 10-15 rwhp from this type of injection depending on the size. With Nitrous, well you can gain as much as you like but there you have to worry about longevity of the engine. I truly beleive that once you get around the 300-350 rwhp mark you decrease your engine life tremendously with the stock components and this kit is designed for guy who wants to add power and not have to worry about his stuff breaking down on him. Of course we are all exceptions to the rule, if I had a V6 it would be at 300 rwhp no doubt but at the same time I wouldn't expect the head gaskets or the piston crowns to last very long either.
The one thing I've learned from my own personal experience with Water/Meth injection on a Whipplecharged truck I had was you will run out and most of the time it's when you want/need it. I used my washer tank on my ranger which was dang near gallon sized and it still ran out rather quickly.
With water injection, depending on the quanity you are spraying, you dont need any additional tuning as the water simply cools the air charge but with methanol injection it will require tuning because the methanol burns and can cause the a/f ratio to go leaner then normal. So if you were to use this type you would require additional tuning. As with anything though, a trip to the dyno wouldn't hurt in any case.
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks Doug904! I figured at the very least he should install a water injection kit and set it to spray between 5-7psi of boost using a 9psi pulley.. Atleast you can just run to the kitchen sink every other day and fill the water tank.
I honestly think Afixer should at a very minimum add the water injection.. This will give him back 15 to 16rwhp making his numbers 266 to 270RWHP.. Plus it should move the TQ up abit as well... No extra tunning needed..
When he goes to the track, he can simply buy a modified tune from BAMAchips and use the meth injection.. The tune may get him a ticket before he gets to the track, so I would advise him to program once on private track property! LOL!
So in short to sum up Dougs insightfull post.. At the very least, a water injection kit couldnt hurt, unless it runs out when that 05GT with a BAMACHIPS tune pulls up next to you.. LOL!! That baby is pushing 280 to 290RWHP.... LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
5/2/06, 06:13 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ May 2, 2006, 6:32 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Thanks Doug904! I figured at the very least he should install a water injection kit and set it to spray between 5-7psi of boost using a 9psi pulley.. Atleast you can just run to the kitchen sink every other day and fill the water tank.
I honestly think Afixer should at a very minimum add the water injection.. This will give him back 15 to 16rwhp making his numbers 266 to 270RWHP.. Plus it should move the TQ up abit as well... No extra tunning needed..
When he goes to the track, he can simply buy a modified tune from BAMAchips and use the meth injection.. The tune may get him a ticket before he gets to the track, so I would advise him to program once on private track property! LOL!
So in short to sum up Dougs insightfull post.. At the very least, a water injection kit couldnt hurt, unless it runs out when that 05GT with a BAMACHIPS tune pulls up next to you.. LOL!! That baby is pushing 280 to 290RWHP.... LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
I think we're kinda missing the point with this MSP, sure if I had it I may do that but Tom just wants a fun car with more umph when he needs it, his first time at the track was last week so I dont think he's after the lowest ET award, just yet [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] .
I did run accross my time slip from my rental V6 from the Atlanta FFW race and with that car and a Demolet and air intake I ran a 9.96 @ 71mph in the 1/8th and a 15.46 in the 1/4. There was another V6 rentral there running 15.6's in the 1/4 as he was completely stock so I would say that Tom's time of 9.1 in the 1/8th is a solid .9-1 second time increase with this kit. I would love to see it on a 1/4 mile track. This was with the 3.0 pulley too so with the 2.8 he may even be in the 8.99 range, I think we'll see this Thursday.
I've had a request for the 2.8 pulley run compared to the GT run so here it is, I have all of these files in a runviewer Format if anyone wants them, you'll need to goto www.dynojet.com and download the run view software but its free.
The Red run is the GT and the blue is the X-charger
2.8 X-Charger Vs Stock Automatic GT
Thanks Doug904! I figured at the very least he should install a water injection kit and set it to spray between 5-7psi of boost using a 9psi pulley.. Atleast you can just run to the kitchen sink every other day and fill the water tank.
I honestly think Afixer should at a very minimum add the water injection.. This will give him back 15 to 16rwhp making his numbers 266 to 270RWHP.. Plus it should move the TQ up abit as well... No extra tunning needed..
When he goes to the track, he can simply buy a modified tune from BAMAchips and use the meth injection.. The tune may get him a ticket before he gets to the track, so I would advise him to program once on private track property! LOL!
So in short to sum up Dougs insightfull post.. At the very least, a water injection kit couldnt hurt, unless it runs out when that 05GT with a BAMACHIPS tune pulls up next to you.. LOL!! That baby is pushing 280 to 290RWHP.... LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
I think we're kinda missing the point with this MSP, sure if I had it I may do that but Tom just wants a fun car with more umph when he needs it, his first time at the track was last week so I dont think he's after the lowest ET award, just yet [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] .
I did run accross my time slip from my rental V6 from the Atlanta FFW race and with that car and a Demolet and air intake I ran a 9.96 @ 71mph in the 1/8th and a 15.46 in the 1/4. There was another V6 rentral there running 15.6's in the 1/4 as he was completely stock so I would say that Tom's time of 9.1 in the 1/8th is a solid .9-1 second time increase with this kit. I would love to see it on a 1/4 mile track. This was with the 3.0 pulley too so with the 2.8 he may even be in the 8.99 range, I think we'll see this Thursday.
I've had a request for the 2.8 pulley run compared to the GT run so here it is, I have all of these files in a runviewer Format if anyone wants them, you'll need to goto www.dynojet.com and download the run view software but its free.
The Red run is the GT and the blue is the X-charger
2.8 X-Charger Vs Stock Automatic GT
5/2/06, 06:45 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 2, 2006, 5:16 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I think we're kinda missing the point with this MSP, sure if I had it I may do that but Tom just wants a fun car with more umph when he needs it, his first time at the track was last week so I dont think he's after the lowest ET award, just yet [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] .
I did run accross my time slip from my rental V6 from the Atlanta FFW race and with that car and a Demolet and air intake I ran a 9.96 @ 71mph in the 1/8th and a 15.46 in the 1/4. There was another V6 rentral there running 15.6's in the 1/4 as he was completely stock so I would say that Tom's time of 9.1 in the 1/8th is a solid .9-1 second time increase with this kit. I would love to see it on a 1/4 mile track. This was with the 3.0 pulley too so with the 2.8 he may even be in the 8.99 range, I think we'll see this Thursday.
I've had a request for the 2.8 pulley run compared to the GT run so here it is, I have all of these files in a runviewer Format if anyone wants them, you'll need to goto www.dynojet.com and download the run view software but its free.
The Red run is the GT and the blue is the X-charger
2.8 X-Charger Vs Stock Automatic GT
[/b][/quote]
LOL!! I understand Doug904! It is a great kit.. Its perfect actually.. You and EE have done an outstanding job for the 4.0 V6 community.. Not everyone is into 350+ RWHP.. I am addicted.. I can only view things from an angle which can eclipse 11 sec ET's.. LOL! I know its probably considered narrow minded.. But I can respect Tom's feelings and needs..
I think its a great product.. Seriously Doug.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
I think we're kinda missing the point with this MSP, sure if I had it I may do that but Tom just wants a fun car with more umph when he needs it, his first time at the track was last week so I dont think he's after the lowest ET award, just yet [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img] .
I did run accross my time slip from my rental V6 from the Atlanta FFW race and with that car and a Demolet and air intake I ran a 9.96 @ 71mph in the 1/8th and a 15.46 in the 1/4. There was another V6 rentral there running 15.6's in the 1/4 as he was completely stock so I would say that Tom's time of 9.1 in the 1/8th is a solid .9-1 second time increase with this kit. I would love to see it on a 1/4 mile track. This was with the 3.0 pulley too so with the 2.8 he may even be in the 8.99 range, I think we'll see this Thursday.
I've had a request for the 2.8 pulley run compared to the GT run so here it is, I have all of these files in a runviewer Format if anyone wants them, you'll need to goto www.dynojet.com and download the run view software but its free.
The Red run is the GT and the blue is the X-charger
2.8 X-Charger Vs Stock Automatic GT
[/b][/quote]
LOL!! I understand Doug904! It is a great kit.. Its perfect actually.. You and EE have done an outstanding job for the 4.0 V6 community.. Not everyone is into 350+ RWHP.. I am addicted.. I can only view things from an angle which can eclipse 11 sec ET's.. LOL! I know its probably considered narrow minded.. But I can respect Tom's feelings and needs..
I think its a great product.. Seriously Doug.. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
5/2/06, 08:01 PM
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Hey Doug904, here is a very important question for you..
I noticed you said you had seen loads of 1.35 on the datalogging at 250RWHP..
In my car @ almost full boost, the load never exceeds more than 1.25.. This is with my new intercooler..
While using the Aftercooler, the load was much lower.. Here is a screen shot using the 2.87in pulley with the Aftercooler @ 10psi 5500RPM.. Even at 6000rpm it wont go more than 1.25 load..
This is 330RWHP+..
Explain how the load of the engine effects things.. I understand the load should increase with HP.. This is why it is strange your at such a load on the xcharger making less power.. Is there a possible unscene tunning issue at play? Perhaps the maps are wrong on the tune?
I am not questioning your abilities at all.. Just trying to understand why the car is producing such a tremendous load...
In this datalog, this is about 330RWHP.. You can see the load is at 1.19..
I noticed you said you had seen loads of 1.35 on the datalogging at 250RWHP..
In my car @ almost full boost, the load never exceeds more than 1.25.. This is with my new intercooler..
While using the Aftercooler, the load was much lower.. Here is a screen shot using the 2.87in pulley with the Aftercooler @ 10psi 5500RPM.. Even at 6000rpm it wont go more than 1.25 load..
This is 330RWHP+..
Explain how the load of the engine effects things.. I understand the load should increase with HP.. This is why it is strange your at such a load on the xcharger making less power.. Is there a possible unscene tunning issue at play? Perhaps the maps are wrong on the tune?
I am not questioning your abilities at all.. Just trying to understand why the car is producing such a tremendous load...
In this datalog, this is about 330RWHP.. You can see the load is at 1.19..
5/2/06, 08:15 PM
#13
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 2, 2006, 6:07 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Let me ask you this: I already have a Steeda CAI, couldn't I just use it with the X-Charger? Do you feel like the 2.8 pulley is safe for a daily driver?
I was under the impression that there was going to be a cali version and a 49 state version.
The 2.8 pulley maybe something added in the future, we do plan on getting some numbers from a manual car and I want to see the numbers with the 2.8 pulley on it as well. I think it would get alot closer to the 275-290 mark on a 5-speed. If the Hi-po version is sold it maybe an add on that you would purchase the air intake and pulley along with the new tunes to go with. I'm not certain on this just yet as we still have to work this part out.
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Let me ask you this: I already have a Steeda CAI, couldn't I just use it with the X-Charger? Do you feel like the 2.8 pulley is safe for a daily driver?
I was under the impression that there was going to be a cali version and a 49 state version.
5/2/06, 08:59 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ May 2, 2006, 9:04 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Hey Doug904, here is a very important question for you..
I noticed you said you had seen loads of 1.35 on the datalogging at 250RWHP..
In my car @ almost full boost, the load never exceeds more than 1.25.. This is with my new intercooler..
While using the Aftercooler, the load was much lower.. Here is a screen shot using the 2.87in pulley with the Aftercooler @ 10psi 5500RPM.. Even at 6000rpm it wont go more than 1.25 load..
This is 330RWHP+..
Explain how the load of the engine effects things.. I understand the load should increase with HP.. This is why it is strange your at such a load on the xcharger making less power.. Is there a possible unscene tunning issue at play? Perhaps the maps are wrong on the tune?
I am not questioning your abilities at all.. Just trying to understand why the car is producing such a tremendous load...
In this datalog, this is about 330RWHP.. You can see the load is at 1.19..
[/b][/quote]
If you are like I think and are using the MAfia MAf tuner then this is why your load is reduced at higher RPM's. Vortech uses the MAFia maf tuners on most of their kits. What this does is in the tuning you actual tell the PCM that the engine is using a different engine displacement and a few other parameters to lower load and extend the range of the MAF meter because it is close to pegging. By doing this is also lowers the Load value in the PCM but still the actual load on the engine is the same but since it is lower in the tuning you have controll over everything.
This is how you get a 03-04 Cobra over 500 rwhp with the stock MAF.
You only need something like this if you are outflowing the MAF meter because of its size but dont want to go to a huge MAF because you would loose some low end idle features. Yes, a bigger MAF is the proper way but using a 90 or even 100 mm MAF on a V6 at idle isn't going to give you the best driveability because the low flow readings are very good.
The load values posted really dont have alot of input on this combo as load can be adjusted in the tuning as yours has. I only posted the values shown to illistrate what loads we are at with a GT maf and without any adjustments to the load values in the tuning. I could use a MAFia and lower the load values but there's no need when you are only at 1.3 and 1.4 loads, its not until you hit the top of the load values in the 1.9-2.0 value range that you need to start adjusting the tuning values to lower load, as you have since you are over the 300rwhp mark.
The reason this is done is because once you hit the 2.0 load value you cannot adjust the spark table anymore so in theory you loose controll of engine spark. By increasing the load charateristics you lower this and you get back controll over the spark table and the other functions of the engine. It sounds more complicated then it really is but it's all in the tuning. Another value to watch when you hit above 1.6 load is " Load with Failed MAF table" as it is set too low on our engines so this is probably why yours is set below there too but that's a whole other discussion.
If you are at 1.1-1.3 then you are in the heart of the tuning power and right where you need to be to gain full controll over your engine's parameters and you have plenty of room to grow.
From looking at your screen shot you must have either a huge MAF or a Mafia tuner because at 5600 rpm's you are only at 852 ad counts on the MAF and were are around 960. Your fuel table is setup to run 10.4:1, spark is 13.75. You must not have your IAT temp sensor relocated to after the Vortech or you are spraying something on it because its only at 40 degree's?
Thanks, Doug.
Hey Doug904, here is a very important question for you..
I noticed you said you had seen loads of 1.35 on the datalogging at 250RWHP..
In my car @ almost full boost, the load never exceeds more than 1.25.. This is with my new intercooler..
While using the Aftercooler, the load was much lower.. Here is a screen shot using the 2.87in pulley with the Aftercooler @ 10psi 5500RPM.. Even at 6000rpm it wont go more than 1.25 load..
This is 330RWHP+..
Explain how the load of the engine effects things.. I understand the load should increase with HP.. This is why it is strange your at such a load on the xcharger making less power.. Is there a possible unscene tunning issue at play? Perhaps the maps are wrong on the tune?
I am not questioning your abilities at all.. Just trying to understand why the car is producing such a tremendous load...
In this datalog, this is about 330RWHP.. You can see the load is at 1.19..
[/b][/quote]
If you are like I think and are using the MAfia MAf tuner then this is why your load is reduced at higher RPM's. Vortech uses the MAFia maf tuners on most of their kits. What this does is in the tuning you actual tell the PCM that the engine is using a different engine displacement and a few other parameters to lower load and extend the range of the MAF meter because it is close to pegging. By doing this is also lowers the Load value in the PCM but still the actual load on the engine is the same but since it is lower in the tuning you have controll over everything.
This is how you get a 03-04 Cobra over 500 rwhp with the stock MAF.
You only need something like this if you are outflowing the MAF meter because of its size but dont want to go to a huge MAF because you would loose some low end idle features. Yes, a bigger MAF is the proper way but using a 90 or even 100 mm MAF on a V6 at idle isn't going to give you the best driveability because the low flow readings are very good.
The load values posted really dont have alot of input on this combo as load can be adjusted in the tuning as yours has. I only posted the values shown to illistrate what loads we are at with a GT maf and without any adjustments to the load values in the tuning. I could use a MAFia and lower the load values but there's no need when you are only at 1.3 and 1.4 loads, its not until you hit the top of the load values in the 1.9-2.0 value range that you need to start adjusting the tuning values to lower load, as you have since you are over the 300rwhp mark.
The reason this is done is because once you hit the 2.0 load value you cannot adjust the spark table anymore so in theory you loose controll of engine spark. By increasing the load charateristics you lower this and you get back controll over the spark table and the other functions of the engine. It sounds more complicated then it really is but it's all in the tuning. Another value to watch when you hit above 1.6 load is " Load with Failed MAF table" as it is set too low on our engines so this is probably why yours is set below there too but that's a whole other discussion.
If you are at 1.1-1.3 then you are in the heart of the tuning power and right where you need to be to gain full controll over your engine's parameters and you have plenty of room to grow.
From looking at your screen shot you must have either a huge MAF or a Mafia tuner because at 5600 rpm's you are only at 852 ad counts on the MAF and were are around 960. Your fuel table is setup to run 10.4:1, spark is 13.75. You must not have your IAT temp sensor relocated to after the Vortech or you are spraying something on it because its only at 40 degree's?
Thanks, Doug.
5/2/06, 10:59 PM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 2, 2006, 8:02 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
If you are like I think and are using the MAfia MAf tuner then this is why your load is reduced at higher RPM's. Vortech uses the MAFia maf tuners on most of their kits. What this does is in the tuning you actual tell the PCM that the engine is using a different engine displacement and a few other parameters to lower load and extend the range of the MAF meter because it is close to pegging. By doing this is also lowers the Load value in the PCM but still the actual load on the engine is the same but since it is lower in the tuning you have controll over everything.
This is how you get a 03-04 Cobra over 500 rwhp with the stock MAF.
You only need something like this if you are outflowing the MAF meter because of its size but dont want to go to a huge MAF because you would loose some low end idle features. Yes, a bigger MAF is the proper way but using a 90 or even 100 mm MAF on a V6 at idle isn't going to give you the best driveability because the low flow readings are very good.
The load values posted really dont have alot of input on this combo as load can be adjusted in the tuning as yours has. I only posted the values shown to illistrate what loads we are at with a GT maf and without any adjustments to the load values in the tuning. I could use a MAFia and lower the load values but there's no need when you are only at 1.3 and 1.4 loads, its not until you hit the top of the load values in the 1.9-2.0 value range that you need to start adjusting the tuning values to lower load, as you have since you are over the 300rwhp mark.
The reason this is done is because once you hit the 2.0 load value you cannot adjust the spark table anymore so in theory you loose controll of engine spark. By increasing the load charateristics you lower this and you get back controll over the spark table and the other functions of the engine. It sounds more complicated then it really is but it's all in the tuning. Another value to watch when you hit above 1.6 load is " Load with Failed MAF table" as it is set too low on our engines so this is probably why yours is set below there too but that's a whole other discussion.
If you are at 1.1-1.3 then you are in the heart of the tuning power and right where you need to be to gain full controll over your engine's parameters and you have plenty of room to grow.
From looking at your screen shot you must have either a huge MAF or a Mafia tuner because at 5600 rpm's you are only at 852 ad counts on the MAF and were are around 960. Your fuel table is setup to run 10.4:1, spark is 13.75. You must not have your IAT temp sensor relocated to after the Vortech or you are spraying something on it because its only at 40 degree's?
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
The IAT is located before the Supercharger... I have a new IAT Gauge in the car which I currently have to view temps of the Supercharger before they are intercooled.. I need one more IAT gauge to view the temps right before the throttle body..
I do not have a Diablo Mafia in my car.. If I do, Vortech did an excellent job of hiding it.. LOL!! I better go check it out.. I have not seen it anywhere.. The cable is not that long for the Mafia, so if I do have one Vortech made sure I wont find it easily.. LOL!
I spoke with Mike who is the engineer who designed the Vortech kit, and he and Lance are going to be re-tunning my car with the Intercooler along with the 2.62 pulley.. We are going to shoot for 400RWHP on the Mustang Dyno.. This is a chance for them to view the system under different circumstances, and will also provide them a way to create a tune for such a setup on our cars.. So this should be an interesting experience..
Thanks for the really good reply Doug904, its amazing how deep you knowledge is with this stuff.. I think you and Lance Keck should get together and do some things.. I'm not sure if you know him or not.. I would think you most likley do..
I need to re-read your post a few times, to completely understand the jist of what your saying.. I also need to find out if I already have a Mafia well hidden in the fenderwell somewhere.. LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
If you are like I think and are using the MAfia MAf tuner then this is why your load is reduced at higher RPM's. Vortech uses the MAFia maf tuners on most of their kits. What this does is in the tuning you actual tell the PCM that the engine is using a different engine displacement and a few other parameters to lower load and extend the range of the MAF meter because it is close to pegging. By doing this is also lowers the Load value in the PCM but still the actual load on the engine is the same but since it is lower in the tuning you have controll over everything.
This is how you get a 03-04 Cobra over 500 rwhp with the stock MAF.
You only need something like this if you are outflowing the MAF meter because of its size but dont want to go to a huge MAF because you would loose some low end idle features. Yes, a bigger MAF is the proper way but using a 90 or even 100 mm MAF on a V6 at idle isn't going to give you the best driveability because the low flow readings are very good.
The load values posted really dont have alot of input on this combo as load can be adjusted in the tuning as yours has. I only posted the values shown to illistrate what loads we are at with a GT maf and without any adjustments to the load values in the tuning. I could use a MAFia and lower the load values but there's no need when you are only at 1.3 and 1.4 loads, its not until you hit the top of the load values in the 1.9-2.0 value range that you need to start adjusting the tuning values to lower load, as you have since you are over the 300rwhp mark.
The reason this is done is because once you hit the 2.0 load value you cannot adjust the spark table anymore so in theory you loose controll of engine spark. By increasing the load charateristics you lower this and you get back controll over the spark table and the other functions of the engine. It sounds more complicated then it really is but it's all in the tuning. Another value to watch when you hit above 1.6 load is " Load with Failed MAF table" as it is set too low on our engines so this is probably why yours is set below there too but that's a whole other discussion.
If you are at 1.1-1.3 then you are in the heart of the tuning power and right where you need to be to gain full controll over your engine's parameters and you have plenty of room to grow.
From looking at your screen shot you must have either a huge MAF or a Mafia tuner because at 5600 rpm's you are only at 852 ad counts on the MAF and were are around 960. Your fuel table is setup to run 10.4:1, spark is 13.75. You must not have your IAT temp sensor relocated to after the Vortech or you are spraying something on it because its only at 40 degree's?
Thanks, Doug.
[/b][/quote]
The IAT is located before the Supercharger... I have a new IAT Gauge in the car which I currently have to view temps of the Supercharger before they are intercooled.. I need one more IAT gauge to view the temps right before the throttle body..
I do not have a Diablo Mafia in my car.. If I do, Vortech did an excellent job of hiding it.. LOL!! I better go check it out.. I have not seen it anywhere.. The cable is not that long for the Mafia, so if I do have one Vortech made sure I wont find it easily.. LOL!
I spoke with Mike who is the engineer who designed the Vortech kit, and he and Lance are going to be re-tunning my car with the Intercooler along with the 2.62 pulley.. We are going to shoot for 400RWHP on the Mustang Dyno.. This is a chance for them to view the system under different circumstances, and will also provide them a way to create a tune for such a setup on our cars.. So this should be an interesting experience..
Thanks for the really good reply Doug904, its amazing how deep you knowledge is with this stuff.. I think you and Lance Keck should get together and do some things.. I'm not sure if you know him or not.. I would think you most likley do..
I need to re-read your post a few times, to completely understand the jist of what your saying.. I also need to find out if I already have a Mafia well hidden in the fenderwell somewhere.. LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
5/3/06, 05:55 AM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSP @ May 3, 2006, 12:02 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
The IAT is located before the Supercharger... I have a new IAT Gauge in the car which I currently have to view temps of the Supercharger before they are intercooled.. I need one more IAT gauge to view the temps right before the throttle body..
I do not have a Diablo Mafia in my car.. If I do, Vortech did an excellent job of hiding it.. LOL!! I better go check it out.. I have not seen it anywhere.. The cable is not that long for the Mafia, so if I do have one Vortech made sure I wont find it easily.. LOL!
I spoke with Mike who is the engineer who designed the Vortech kit, and he and Lance are going to be re-tunning my car with the Intercooler along with the 2.62 pulley.. We are going to shoot for 400RWHP on the Mustang Dyno.. This is a chance for them to view the system under different circumstances, and will also provide them a way to create a tune for such a setup on our cars.. So this should be an interesting experience..
Thanks for the really good reply Doug904, its amazing how deep you knowledge is with this stuff.. I think you and Lance Keck should get together and do some things.. I'm not sure if you know him or not.. I would think you most likley do..
I need to re-read your post a few times, to completely understand the jist of what your saying.. I also need to find out if I already have a Mafia well hidden in the fenderwell somewhere.. LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Their are other ways to change load if you dont have the MAFia by changing values in the PCM but the most common is using the mafia adapter. Do you have any pictures of under your hood? You could just have a large MAF, like the one supplied with the GT Vortech kit, and that may do it. I've not tried that large of a MAF on a V6 yet so I wouldn't know right off. It has to be alot larger then the stock GT maf though because of your MAF readings at WOT.
thanks,Doug.
The IAT is located before the Supercharger... I have a new IAT Gauge in the car which I currently have to view temps of the Supercharger before they are intercooled.. I need one more IAT gauge to view the temps right before the throttle body..
I do not have a Diablo Mafia in my car.. If I do, Vortech did an excellent job of hiding it.. LOL!! I better go check it out.. I have not seen it anywhere.. The cable is not that long for the Mafia, so if I do have one Vortech made sure I wont find it easily.. LOL!
I spoke with Mike who is the engineer who designed the Vortech kit, and he and Lance are going to be re-tunning my car with the Intercooler along with the 2.62 pulley.. We are going to shoot for 400RWHP on the Mustang Dyno.. This is a chance for them to view the system under different circumstances, and will also provide them a way to create a tune for such a setup on our cars.. So this should be an interesting experience..
Thanks for the really good reply Doug904, its amazing how deep you knowledge is with this stuff.. I think you and Lance Keck should get together and do some things.. I'm not sure if you know him or not.. I would think you most likley do..
I need to re-read your post a few times, to completely understand the jist of what your saying.. I also need to find out if I already have a Mafia well hidden in the fenderwell somewhere.. LOL! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Their are other ways to change load if you dont have the MAFia by changing values in the PCM but the most common is using the mafia adapter. Do you have any pictures of under your hood? You could just have a large MAF, like the one supplied with the GT Vortech kit, and that may do it. I've not tried that large of a MAF on a V6 yet so I wouldn't know right off. It has to be alot larger then the stock GT maf though because of your MAF readings at WOT.
thanks,Doug.
5/3/06, 08:35 AM
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Doug904 @ May 3, 2006, 4:58 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Their are other ways to change load if you dont have the MAFia by changing values in the PCM but the most common is using the mafia adapter. Do you have any pictures of under your hood? You could just have a large MAF, like the one supplied with the GT Vortech kit, and that may do it. I've not tried that large of a MAF on a V6 yet so I wouldn't know right off. It has to be alot larger then the stock GT maf though because of your MAF readings at WOT.
thanks,Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, I have a larger MAF Doug! I am not using the stock MAF.. I'll try and find a pic.. But its the same as the GT's Vortech MAF..
You can see the MAF in this shot..
Hey Doug to be honest, my first impression of the Xcharger, was that I thought that using the stock Air box and stock MAF seemed kind of odd, being that the volume of air required for the xcharger would be larger than the stock air box and tube could supply...
Do you think that a slight redesign of this could yield larger gains for the Xcharger, or is it your opinion that the volume should be sufficient?
I would think that based on the size of my MAF tube, along with my intake air tube, the engine is able to take in much more air..
Its obvious by the size of the xchargers intake air box and tube, its not seeing the air volume inside the upper intake..
Thoughts?
Also, was their a measurment of the vaccum and boost pressure by way of the vaccum line on the back of the upper intake on the drivers side of the car to record actual vaccum and boost pressures?
Their are other ways to change load if you dont have the MAFia by changing values in the PCM but the most common is using the mafia adapter. Do you have any pictures of under your hood? You could just have a large MAF, like the one supplied with the GT Vortech kit, and that may do it. I've not tried that large of a MAF on a V6 yet so I wouldn't know right off. It has to be alot larger then the stock GT maf though because of your MAF readings at WOT.
thanks,Doug.
[/b][/quote]
Yes, I have a larger MAF Doug! I am not using the stock MAF.. I'll try and find a pic.. But its the same as the GT's Vortech MAF..
You can see the MAF in this shot..
Hey Doug to be honest, my first impression of the Xcharger, was that I thought that using the stock Air box and stock MAF seemed kind of odd, being that the volume of air required for the xcharger would be larger than the stock air box and tube could supply...
Do you think that a slight redesign of this could yield larger gains for the Xcharger, or is it your opinion that the volume should be sufficient?
I would think that based on the size of my MAF tube, along with my intake air tube, the engine is able to take in much more air..
Its obvious by the size of the xchargers intake air box and tube, its not seeing the air volume inside the upper intake..
Thoughts?
Also, was their a measurment of the vaccum and boost pressure by way of the vaccum line on the back of the upper intake on the drivers side of the car to record actual vaccum and boost pressures?
5/3/06, 04:19 PM
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I think EE used the stock airbox for certification reasons. I think its a CARB issue if you replace the stock air box. Considering the V-6 and GT have the same airbox, I don't think this is hurting the X-Charger at 250 RWHP much. I think you can still pick up 15-20 RWHP with a aftermarket CAI.
5/3/06, 06:00 PM
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First off its not the stock airbox lid, it is the GT airbox and MAF. We use this because the stock airbox/MAF wouldn't handle the added power from the kit. It is too small. Trickpony is correct, we use the stock GT maf to make things easier as well for the CARB testing, they make you provide a list of everything you have changed and then review it with a fine toothed comb. The more you can keep factory or atleast using factory parts the easier it is to get approved.
The MAF with the Vortech GT kits, and the V6 it seems, is a huge 4" peice that is much larger then the MAF on the standard GT.
The outside temps were around 75-80 degree's.
I can see the MAF but not the connector, does it just use the factory wiring to the MAF? On the GT kits this is where the MAFia is used first off for the extension of the MAF harness because it won't reach and then if it is required for the MAF to extend the range.
Thanks, Doug.
The MAF with the Vortech GT kits, and the V6 it seems, is a huge 4" peice that is much larger then the MAF on the standard GT.
The outside temps were around 75-80 degree's.
I can see the MAF but not the connector, does it just use the factory wiring to the MAF? On the GT kits this is where the MAFia is used first off for the extension of the MAF harness because it won't reach and then if it is required for the MAF to extend the range.
Thanks, Doug.