Hambone

No way! I'm a molecular biologist/geneticist, too Actually, I've pretty much traded my labcoat in for a tie--I'm an academic administrator now (but I still teach a bit--teaching a Genetics lab this semester in fact!)

Are you at UAB or where?

Hambone

Actually, if you read the thread by the C&L man himself, you'll see very modest gains are suggested...they make a point out of saying how many folks are making claims of big gains, but they are trying to represent reality. Yes, I wish I had measure more than 4 HP, but that's what we measured that day.

I do agree that an actual dyno session would be the way to go, but Lidio is so far away, and really he's the guy I'd love to have tune my car--he knows the V6 auto!.....For example, I don't think the dyno shop we went to had ever had an 05 V6 on their dyno before!

tomahawk

yeah UAB.

scrming

Well you could always fly him in for personal consult! LOL! He's actually in Florida right now tuning some Marauders...

BurntPony

Im just not convinced that a CAI does anything for us other than sounding cool.

My theory: The TB and MAF are matched as far as size goes. The exact same lower airbox is used on the 300hp GT.

That tells me that plenty of air is getting into the airbox for our V6, and the engine is pulling all the air it needs/wants through the MAF. With the stock sized TB it cant pull more.

I think a smooth tube between the MAF and TB to smooth out the airflow will net the same gains as a $300+ intake, maybe more because the stock airbox isnt pulling in hot underhood air.

If a CAI alone is netting even a 5hp gain, thats only a 2.5% hp increase, not the 10-20% gains most manufacturers are claiming.

For $300 I think I will keep my stock airbox and MAF ... with a few mods.

T-stang

@Burntpony:

What passes for a Mustang CAI is known as a "short ram" intake in import tuning. Because it takes air from under the hood, and from nearly the exact same location as the stock box, it is not a true cold air system. For example, most Honda CAIs take their air from under the front bumper near the fender well.

I know we sometimes think little of the engineers at Ford, but do you really think they would fail to make a hole in the stock air box big enough to let the right amount of air into the engine? Especially when it would effect performance, gas mileage, and is a no cost option!

The gains people are seeing are small, and are the result of the improved filter elements that come with the the short ram intakes. That or they are a result of additional mods such as the short ram intake, higher octane gas, and a flash tune. Raise the octane and you can advance the timing for more hp: that's no secret, and has little to do with cold air.

Take a look at the short ram tubes as well: are they really that different from the stock tube? Similar length, slightly larger diameter (perhaps), and a similar angle because of the almost identical location. Are they different enough to create an instant 10 hp increase in performance? Is plastic or aluminum truly that remarkable?

And how does a simple heat shield keep warm air from getting into the now exposed filter element? Those things are not air tight. There are a few openings underneath the stock airbox location, but they are exposed to the engine bay and are not that far from either the radiator or the exhaust manifold. Cold air?

And you are right: how does an increased diameter tube help if the throttle body remains the same size? Steeda uses the stock tube with an improved filter element on their CAI, and I have heard it performs as well as the others.

:scratch:

BurntPony

A couple points.

1. Air is like water it "flows" along the path of least restistance. The CAI aka short ram is pulling air from the easist place to get it, under the hood.

2. The engine is pulling air in, it isnt being forced in. People tend to think that the intake system starts at the filter. It is just the opposite, it starts at the TB.

Im going to seal off my airbox hole to the fender. find a suitable smooth tube to replace my stock one, and maybe put in a highflow filter. although I think a clean oem one flows nearly as well on a mostly stock engine.

Screw $300+ on a chunk of tube and a $35 filter.

Excepcion13

So let me get this right, so far I have heard the following theories:

Current CAIs: Worthless
Current Exhaust Mods: Worthless without "tuned headers"
Tuners: Maybe, but no 20 HP gains!! That's preposterous!

So..... Then how is SCRMING making 200RWHP in an Auto? And he has a long history of dyno sheets to show when he gets gains.

How am I making 205 RWHP with a manual? No pulleys, a decent muffler, a CAI, and a 93 Octane tune... Where is that HP coming from? Is it my Roush louvers? Man, I knew they didn't just look cool!!

The timing on these cars can be advanced very little, even with 93 Octane gas. That is no secret, either.

Torch_Vert

There you go, confusing the issue with facts

scrming

Mine must come from that shorty antenna Scott sold me!!!

Thomas S

Very well said. :worship:

rygenstormlocke

No no, that antenna is only good for 3 HP, it's your louvers, they make the car more aero dynamic, good for 10 HP.

STD numbers of course, why use SAE. Who needs accuracy and facts. By the way, its the end of the day, time for me to go home. I'm just gonna climb down the bean stalk here.....

rygenstormlocke

I think this was once said in the Duratec 3.5 thread a while ago:

"Darn arm chair engine builders!"

T-stang

I believe the filter element on the CAI helps (4-8 hp judging from majority of CAI only dynos I have seen here).

93 octane fuel and a tune definitely help (higher octane and timing advance in tune could easily be 10 hp).

Exhaust mods may really help (could easily be anywhere from 5-15 hp), but tuned headers traditionally have offered more than other exhaust mods alone (anywhere from 10-25 hp); and they can further gains from other mods.

And there is no "arm chair" engine builder here. I have not started on my 'stanger yet, but when I do it will be the fourth car I have moded: one was a four banger I built from the rods up and it ran in the low 13s in the 1/4 mile!. Meanwhile I am biding my time, gathering information, and analyzing anectodal evidence which is why I come here.

Excepcion13

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T-stang @ February 2, 2006, 3:42 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>

93 octane fuel and a tune definitely help (higher octane and timing advance in tune could easily be 10 hp).

[/b][/quote]

When I went in for a retune with 93, my mechanic told me that he could only minimally advance the timing, and that would have limited results. The first run with advanced timing netted a small HP loss. After playing around with the tune, he was able to net me 6 more RWHP and 7 or 8 RWTQ. However, he adjusted the 87 tune he originally gave me to achieve those results. I am not exactly sure what he tweaked to get the extra power. A/F at 13, which is exactly where he likes it. My final unadjusted numbers were 215/250, my STD #'s were 211/245, and my SAE #'s were 205/239.

There is quiet a lot of potential in tuning these engines. If you suspect the filter element is responsible for much of the gain, try a tuner and a K&N drop-in, maybe even drill some well place holes in the stock airbox. These are innocuous mods that won't even trigger the "mod police" at your local Ford dealership (you can reflash to stock when you take her in).

ManEHawke

A thing to note is when they do dyno's they have the hood open with the fan blowing directly to the filter. Someone should dyno with and w/o CAI with the hood closed (minimal difference with same tune, filter may not render much on its own). Gains are mainly seen for the reasons above, timing and slightly better flowing filter materials.
If we got ram-air hoods with plumbing going right over the filter then our real life performance will be closer to what is seen in the dynos, with hoods open.

ManEHawke

T-Stang and Burnt Pony aren't wrong.
I can tell they have experience with performance, and dealing alot with manipulating runner lengths, and header lengths to allow how the vehicle performs (low Vs top end).
I can't wait to see what you guys come up with on these V6's.

SPARTAN VI

Cool stuff. What would the HP/TQ rating be at the fly wheel? About 220-230HP? 260TQ?

scrming

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 2, 2006, 8:26 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
When I went in for a retune with 93, my mechanic told me that he could only minimally advance the timing, and that would have limited results. The first run with advanced timing netted a small HP loss. After playing around with the tune, he was able to net me 6 more RWHP and 7 or 8 RWTQ. However, he adjusted the 87 tune he originally gave me to achieve those results. I am not exactly sure what he tweaked to get the extra power. A/F at 13, which is exactly where he likes it. My final unadjusted numbers were 215/250, my STD #'s were 211/245, and my SAE #'s were 205/238.

There is quiet a lot of potential in tuning these engines. If you suspect the filter element is responsible for much of the gain, try a tuner and a K&N drop-in, maybe even drill some well place holes in the stock airbox. These are innocuous mods that won't even trigger the "mod police" at your local Ford dealership (you can reflash to stock when you take her in).
[/b][/quote]

That's pretty much what we're finding... you really can't advance the timing much... What will happen is you'll advance the timing a bit but then you'll trigger the knock sensor which will pull out timing... We found the same thing with my car where we saw the HP actually go DOWN! LOL!

Excepcion13

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ManEHawke @ February 2, 2006, 11:44 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
A thing to note is when they do dyno's they have the hood open with the fan blowing directly to the filter. Someone should dyno with and w/o CAI with the hood closed (minimal difference with same tune, filter may not render much on its own). Gains are mainly seen for the reasons above, timing and slightly better flowing filter materials.
If we got ram-air hoods with plumbing going right over the filter then our real life performance will be closer to what is seen in the dynos, with hoods open.
[/b][/quote]

I don't think that they are wrong, per se, just that simple bolt-on mods ARE working. T-Stang and BurntPony ARE knowledgeable about modding cars, and no one is doubting that. However, when people ARE achieving results with these mods, it is puzzling to read that those same mods are relatively worthless.

The hood is open during a dyno, but I believe that would cause minimal, if any, differences, as the air flow while driving is much greater than the air flow while dynoing. Where I get dyno'd, the fan is blowing on the engine, not the specifically on the intake, and not even very fast. The dyno run takes the car well over 100 MPH. Stick your hand out of the window at even 65 MPH and you will feel more force than from that fan. Also, there is little chance of your car overheating when you are driving down the road unless you have a problem with the cooling system. But the same cannot be said by your car stationary with the hood down and just that dyno fan while you are putting it through its paces.

All gains are measured with the hood up and the fan running. If we could measure HP during normal operating conditions, then there would be no need for a controlled test. The test may not be exactly real world specific, but it is the best we have and it is used by all. I understand where you are going with this, and you make a good point, but I don't think closing the hood would simulate real world performance considering the airflow that is achieved when driving.

Some more random thoughts:

1. If air flows like a liquid, than smooth RAM intake tubes WILL make a difference in air flow i.e. more efficiency.
2. Timing advances are pretty negligible on these cars per Chris from Excessive and Lidio.
3. John (SCRMING) got a significant gain OVER his Magnaflow muffler by changing to his MRT.
4. John got a 3-4 HP difference over the MMR Intake by switching to the C&L (both RAM intake tubes and both with good, free flowing filters. Only design difference seems to be a bigger elbow bend).

I am no expert, and I will be the first to admit it. And a healthy dose of skepticism is good. But there is no denying the FACT that gains are being made with CAIs, Tuners, and Exhaust mods.