JBA Cat4ward® Headers
1/31/06, 12:46 PM
#21
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Originally posted by Ricklmesa@***.net@January 31, 2006, 6:15 AM
It gives it a quieter yet deeper Porcsha type sound to it. It dont get really loud untill higher RPM like 4000. The H - pipe will sound totally different compared to the x -pipe.
It gives it a quieter yet deeper Porcsha type sound to it. It dont get really loud untill higher RPM like 4000. The H - pipe will sound totally different compared to the x -pipe.
I know it's hard to "say" how different the x-pipe will sound versus the h-pipe, but could you give us some idea? Like does the x sound deeper at lower rpms than the h, or whatever?
Thanks in advance...
2/2/06, 01:15 AM
#22
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@Excepcion:
The JBAs are CARB legal which is great! But they do not claim to be "fully tuned" and appear to be what are called "unequal length" headers in almost every picture I have seen of them (including the link you posted). I have only seen one very small picture of the MAC headers, but they appear to be the same. Unequal length headers may offer some gains, but will not compare to tuned ones, so I am waiting for tuned headers to arrive (preferably from a brand name producer). I have even considered having custom tubes made, but that would not be cheap or easy.
This link is to the MAC website and there is a very small pic of what I believe are a set of fully tuned GT headers: you can see some of the radical bending I am trying to describe.
http://www.macperformance.com/store/catego...69&CatLevel=top
The problem seems to be that there just isn't enough room in the engine bay, or enough length from the engine to the collection pipe, to bend the pipes sufficiently. I have seen one pic of what were claimed to be tuned shorties for the V-6--they had some serious 180 degree bends in them--but I could not begin to understand how anyone could install them in the space that is available.
Also, I don't believe long tube headers were ever meant to be used with stock cats, so that rules them out for me.
The JBAs are CARB legal which is great! But they do not claim to be "fully tuned" and appear to be what are called "unequal length" headers in almost every picture I have seen of them (including the link you posted). I have only seen one very small picture of the MAC headers, but they appear to be the same. Unequal length headers may offer some gains, but will not compare to tuned ones, so I am waiting for tuned headers to arrive (preferably from a brand name producer). I have even considered having custom tubes made, but that would not be cheap or easy.
This link is to the MAC website and there is a very small pic of what I believe are a set of fully tuned GT headers: you can see some of the radical bending I am trying to describe.
http://www.macperformance.com/store/catego...69&CatLevel=top
The problem seems to be that there just isn't enough room in the engine bay, or enough length from the engine to the collection pipe, to bend the pipes sufficiently. I have seen one pic of what were claimed to be tuned shorties for the V-6--they had some serious 180 degree bends in them--but I could not begin to understand how anyone could install them in the space that is available.
Also, I don't believe long tube headers were ever meant to be used with stock cats, so that rules them out for me.
2/2/06, 06:13 AM
#23
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T-stang @ February 2, 2006, 4:18 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
@Excepcion:
Unequal length headers may offer some gains, but will not compare to tuned ones, so I am waiting for tuned headers to arrive (preferably from a brand name producer). I have even considered having custom tubes made, but that would not be cheap or easy.
Also, I don't believe long tube headers were ever meant to be used with stock cats, so that rules them out for me.
[/b][/quote]
So are tuned headers just headers of equal length? If they are, how will they achieve that with the limited space? Would it just require more bends in the headers?
Wouldn't the LTs stand a greater chance of being equal length? They make catted systems for them, but if you are correct about them being made to be catless, would that impact the gains from them significantly?
@Excepcion:
Unequal length headers may offer some gains, but will not compare to tuned ones, so I am waiting for tuned headers to arrive (preferably from a brand name producer). I have even considered having custom tubes made, but that would not be cheap or easy.
Also, I don't believe long tube headers were ever meant to be used with stock cats, so that rules them out for me.
[/b][/quote]
So are tuned headers just headers of equal length? If they are, how will they achieve that with the limited space? Would it just require more bends in the headers?
Wouldn't the LTs stand a greater chance of being equal length? They make catted systems for them, but if you are correct about them being made to be catless, would that impact the gains from them significantly?
2/2/06, 07:02 PM
#24
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i have the JBA's with an x-pipe and dual magnaflow XL mufflers...It sounds soo good when the car is warmed up after a 15 minute or so drive. I haven't dyno'd my car, but i sure like the sound. I'll be even happier if there is some gain....
Also, FYI...if anybody gets this, you could actually bolt on the headers yourself without taking out the motor. I watched the mechanics take off my headers....all they did was take of the airbox and slip there hands in there. So...if some shop charges some crazy amount to put on headers....just tell em that it isn;t that hard....you could even put them on yourslelf. Just gotta torque it to spec.
Also, FYI...if anybody gets this, you could actually bolt on the headers yourself without taking out the motor. I watched the mechanics take off my headers....all they did was take of the airbox and slip there hands in there. So...if some shop charges some crazy amount to put on headers....just tell em that it isn;t that hard....you could even put them on yourslelf. Just gotta torque it to spec.
2/3/06, 06:26 PM
#25
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@Excepion:
They must be of equal length measured at whatever collection pipe set-up you are using. Making them right and making them fit is the trick! More twists and bends and separate individual pipes are both tricks that they use. It is even harder on a single exhaust V-6 if the down tubes on one side are slightly longer than the other--that may be why JBA's shorties appear to be of unequal length.
Because the pistons never fire at the same time the combusted gases leaving the engine enter the downtubes at regular intervals. If the tubes are of equal length the puffs (if you would) of combusted gases can flow down the pipes uninterrupted without colliding with the combusted gases from the other cylinders, which would cause interference and unwanted back pressure. This allows the engine to breathe at maximum efficiency. The results can be breathtaking, especially in a V-8: think of the old musclecars and the rapid-fire vuh-duh-duh-duh sound they make when you floor them.
You are right, long tubes make it easier, but now you are flaunting both the law and your warranty. High-flow cats could keep you legal, but they would reduce some of your gains and your warranty would still be shot.
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif[/img]
They must be of equal length measured at whatever collection pipe set-up you are using. Making them right and making them fit is the trick! More twists and bends and separate individual pipes are both tricks that they use. It is even harder on a single exhaust V-6 if the down tubes on one side are slightly longer than the other--that may be why JBA's shorties appear to be of unequal length.
Because the pistons never fire at the same time the combusted gases leaving the engine enter the downtubes at regular intervals. If the tubes are of equal length the puffs (if you would) of combusted gases can flow down the pipes uninterrupted without colliding with the combusted gases from the other cylinders, which would cause interference and unwanted back pressure. This allows the engine to breathe at maximum efficiency. The results can be breathtaking, especially in a V-8: think of the old musclecars and the rapid-fire vuh-duh-duh-duh sound they make when you floor them.
You are right, long tubes make it easier, but now you are flaunting both the law and your warranty. High-flow cats could keep you legal, but they would reduce some of your gains and your warranty would still be shot.
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cheers.gif[/img]
2/3/06, 07:19 PM
#26
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(islandmustang @ February 2, 2006, 9:05 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
i have the JBA's with an x-pipe and dual magnaflow XL mufflers...It sounds soo good when the car is warmed up after a 15 minute or so drive. I haven't dyno'd my car, but i sure like the sound. I'll be even happier if there is some gain....
Also, FYI...if anybody gets this, you could actually bolt on the headers yourself without taking out the motor. I watched the mechanics take off my headers....all they did was take of the airbox and slip there hands in there. So...if some shop charges some crazy amount to put on headers....just tell em that it isn;t that hard....you could even put them on yourslelf. Just gotta torque it to spec.
[/b][/quote]
Most shops charge what "The Book" tells them to charge... If "The Book" says a job takes 6 hours they charge 6 hours even if they get it done in 2! Example... on my Jeep I had to have the valve cover replaced... "The Book" quoted something like 8 hours because to get to the back to bolts, the book wanted you to remove the engine... My cousin, a mechanic, says "Watch this" Take a pry bar and ever so slight push the motor a little bit... a couple of extentions and universals and bang... he's got the bolts out... cover is replaced in like 20 minutes... had I taken it to a shop they would have done the same trick and charge me 8 hours! LOL!
i have the JBA's with an x-pipe and dual magnaflow XL mufflers...It sounds soo good when the car is warmed up after a 15 minute or so drive. I haven't dyno'd my car, but i sure like the sound. I'll be even happier if there is some gain....
Also, FYI...if anybody gets this, you could actually bolt on the headers yourself without taking out the motor. I watched the mechanics take off my headers....all they did was take of the airbox and slip there hands in there. So...if some shop charges some crazy amount to put on headers....just tell em that it isn;t that hard....you could even put them on yourslelf. Just gotta torque it to spec.
[/b][/quote]
Most shops charge what "The Book" tells them to charge... If "The Book" says a job takes 6 hours they charge 6 hours even if they get it done in 2! Example... on my Jeep I had to have the valve cover replaced... "The Book" quoted something like 8 hours because to get to the back to bolts, the book wanted you to remove the engine... My cousin, a mechanic, says "Watch this" Take a pry bar and ever so slight push the motor a little bit... a couple of extentions and universals and bang... he's got the bolts out... cover is replaced in like 20 minutes... had I taken it to a shop they would have done the same trick and charge me 8 hours! LOL!
2/3/06, 08:57 PM
#27
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Another thing is that it has been tested and proven is that from TB to combustion chamber to header collecter, you will make the most power for that engine if it measures 54 1/2"'s.
Now if you want low-end, you will want long intake runners, along with a shorter header. Short & fat intake runner, with long tubes will render a top-end performer.
You will see most manufacturers set it equally (very close at least) Intake & header wise.
Tuned manifolds allow each cylinder to take advantage of this formula.
Now if you want low-end, you will want long intake runners, along with a shorter header. Short & fat intake runner, with long tubes will render a top-end performer.
You will see most manufacturers set it equally (very close at least) Intake & header wise.
Tuned manifolds allow each cylinder to take advantage of this formula.
2/3/06, 10:04 PM
#29
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 4, 2006, 12:02 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Just as an FYI, Supersix Motors now has a TB for the V6 4.0.
[/b][/quote]
Cool!!! Got a link?
Just as an FYI, Supersix Motors now has a TB for the V6 4.0.
[/b][/quote]
Cool!!! Got a link?
2/3/06, 10:12 PM
#30
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2/3/06, 10:20 PM
#31
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ January 31, 2006, 8:02 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Headers are definitely something that I am looking into. The JBAs are decent, better than stock, but too expensive. The MACs are reasonably priced and also better than stock. And MAC makes LT headers for our cars, but good luck getting a catted Prochamber to fit them...
As far as exhaust goes, people are benefitting from exhaust mods NOW, without changing headers, tuned or untuned. I am sure that tuned headers will enhance any exhaust modifications that you might happen to put on NOW.
Back to back dynos on tuned headers is a great idea. Why don't YOU do it?
JBA: http://www.rpmoutlet.com/05v6jbahdr.htm
MAC: http://www.lmperformance.com/5658/73.html
You might get a better deal on e bay, but those are the best prices I have found on the net. Let us know how it goes? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
LT's provide better AF, more gains over shorties. I'm waiting for the market to mature a bit before I tackle LT's on my car.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 4, 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/p...006Intakes.pdf
Bottom of the page. $250 with a $150 core.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks man. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
Headers are definitely something that I am looking into. The JBAs are decent, better than stock, but too expensive. The MACs are reasonably priced and also better than stock. And MAC makes LT headers for our cars, but good luck getting a catted Prochamber to fit them...
As far as exhaust goes, people are benefitting from exhaust mods NOW, without changing headers, tuned or untuned. I am sure that tuned headers will enhance any exhaust modifications that you might happen to put on NOW.
Back to back dynos on tuned headers is a great idea. Why don't YOU do it?
JBA: http://www.rpmoutlet.com/05v6jbahdr.htm
MAC: http://www.lmperformance.com/5658/73.html
You might get a better deal on e bay, but those are the best prices I have found on the net. Let us know how it goes? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
LT's provide better AF, more gains over shorties. I'm waiting for the market to mature a bit before I tackle LT's on my car.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 4, 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/p...006Intakes.pdf
Bottom of the page. $250 with a $150 core.
[/b][/quote]
Thanks man. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]
2/4/06, 08:56 AM
#33
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 4, 2006, 12:15 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/p...006Intakes.pdf
Bottom of the page. $250 with a $150 core.
[/b][/quote]
This looks good, I just wish they would publish something on gains. Doh! Hmmm, maybe later down the road for this one.
http://www.supersixmotorsports.com/p...006Intakes.pdf
Bottom of the page. $250 with a $150 core.
[/b][/quote]
This looks good, I just wish they would publish something on gains. Doh! Hmmm, maybe later down the road for this one.
2/4/06, 04:46 PM
#34
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Excepcion13 @ February 4, 2006, 12:02 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Just as an FYI, Supersix Motors now has a TB for the V6 4.0.
[/b][/quote]
It's a stock TB that's been "ported"... They don't have any info as far as gains... (i asked a while ago)
Just as an FYI, Supersix Motors now has a TB for the V6 4.0.
[/b][/quote]
It's a stock TB that's been "ported"... They don't have any info as far as gains... (i asked a while ago)
2/4/06, 08:49 PM
#35
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T-stang @ February 4, 2006, 7:40 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
@ManE:
I did not know that 54 1/2" figure. Thanks!!! Now how do I get a measuring tape all the way through the pistons??? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/22.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]
I don't know of a method to measure it all while it's installed in the car. Would be kinda hard to get it through both valves. (It'd be nice to verify where we stand however)
If you wanted to do things right, you would have to change out the intake & headers to keep it all in that range (you measure while it's being built apart from car). It's much more practical to add length (ie. LT's or TB spacers) than reduce it in one area to add in another. I don't see anyone being that hardcore in such a new car, but if someone did this right to change the car's atributes for a low or top-end performer, it would be awesome to see.
@ManE:
I did not know that 54 1/2" figure. Thanks!!! Now how do I get a measuring tape all the way through the pistons??? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/22.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img]
I don't know of a method to measure it all while it's installed in the car. Would be kinda hard to get it through both valves. (It'd be nice to verify where we stand however)
If you wanted to do things right, you would have to change out the intake & headers to keep it all in that range (you measure while it's being built apart from car). It's much more practical to add length (ie. LT's or TB spacers) than reduce it in one area to add in another. I don't see anyone being that hardcore in such a new car, but if someone did this right to change the car's atributes for a low or top-end performer, it would be awesome to see.
2/4/06, 09:25 PM
#36
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Even if the MAC shorty's aren't a truly tuned set (if you're splitting hairs), it sure as heck appears to be as close as humanly possible.
Personaly I won't mess with intake or header lengths, but having them flow better will be what I'll go for.
Personaly I won't mess with intake or header lengths, but having them flow better will be what I'll go for.
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