Dyno tune, alt. pulley and Vortech....
12/2/05, 05:15 AM
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Spent the day working with Lidio yesterday. While we've spent a fair amount of time tuning my car for nitrous we never did a proper dyno tune for the car when it's not on the juice. Normally I just leave my N20 tune loaded all the time but I decided that I would like a better tune for around town (since I never spray except for the track). So time to see where the car was at NA...
We loaded Lidio's base 89 Octane tune.. Car was running lean due to the MMR intake and we watched the knock sensor pull a fair amount of timing. Lidio made some fuel changes and got the A/F looking really nice. Now we went to add a little bit of timing since I had a tank full of 93.. well the car didn't like it... hmmm... then I re-read Doug's post.. seems he was unable to advance the timing like he wanted to on the automatic car he was working on... hmmm... Of course it's winter here in Michigan so with the winter blends who knows what you are getting! LOL! So we basically just used Lidio's 89 base tune with fuel adjustments for the MMR intake...
I have the dyno sheets at home but won't be able to post them until maybe later in the weekend.... but here's a summary...
My automatic with MMR CAI and single axle-back Magnaflow muffler was putting down 186 to 187RWHP (Torque numbers are at home... argh) This is slightly above Doug's 178RWHP... I believe his automatic had a stock exhaust? That would explain the difference between the 178 and 187... However I believe the C&L has a bigger MAF opening and should provide more gain than the MMR... Lidio will be getting a C&L in and we'll do some testing to see what the difference is...
Now some of you may remember I posted that the car was 194RWHP... so why is it only 187RWHP now? Good question... I definitely have an old graph showing 194... Lidio and I talked about this for a while... gear change, tire change, something changed... LOL! But for the day the car was consistently putting down 186 to 187 RWHP...
So bottom line here is Lidio's 89 octane tune with and MMR intake compete right there with anyone elses tune and intake. The 187RWHP was with very little cool down time between runs... The were all pretty much back to back pulls... The other thing is I have the 4.10 gears which I believe can actually show LESS HP on the dyno... ??? So with the stock 3.31 my HP might have been a bit higher...
Now the other day I ordered Paul's Alternator Pulley kit. Remember we talked about this and whether we could live without the A/C? LOL! Well the belt they supplied with the kit was actually long enough to cover the A/C! I asked them about this since it was supposed to delete the A/C... The guy on the phone said he would have to double check... Acutally I'm kind of happy it's doesn't delete the A/C since it really just a freewheeling pully must all the time... LOL!
Ok... So we replaced the altenator pully... now this pulley is HUGE! (check pics) LIdio's eye's about bugged out when I pulled it out of the box! LOL! Well, we bolt it on while the car is still hot... only takes a few minutes so we can get some fair pulls with the pulley on. Now one thing we were concerned about was the voltage on the alternator since is was spinning soooooo slowly... the alternator showed 14 volts, no problem... even at idle! So all is good there... We make a pull and the HP and TQ show a nice little gain.. RWHP jumped up to 190RWHP... so about a 3 or 4 RWHP gain through the whole pull.. in spots I think it was even 5RWHP gain... there were nice gains especially at the end of the pull... This was with VERY SIMPLE BOLT-ON. Again, sorry I don't have the dyno graph for you right now but will post them asap... So we decided to break for lunch and we really let the car cool down..
So after lunch we make one more "glory" pull... So with the MMR CAI, single Magnaflow muffler and Paul's new altenator pully running Lidio's 89 Octane tune with only adjustment to the fuel to compensate for the MMR CAI the car put down 193RWHP (I believe the TQ was 219RWTQ... i will verify) Thing to remember of course is this is an automatic.
It was a fun day on the dyno... but it's time to settle up so we head into Lidio's office... and then he springs it on me... He will be selling the Vortech kit and at very competitive price... The kit will pretty much include everything except a tuner (and tune?) Lidio's an SCT shop so that's great for us SCT users... Now I don't believe Lidio is looking to get into the internet/mail order business... He's looking for customers that will be bringing their car's in... The kit will be going for around $2950... Dang... do you know how hard it was not to whip out Mr. Visa right there on the spot! Some how I was able to restrain myself... but believe me... the whole drive home I was trying to figure out how to scrape up the dough! LOL!!!!
Ok.. sorry for the long post... but I had a lot of things I wanted to blab about! LOL! Here' s the altenator pics... Dyno sheets to follow!
We loaded Lidio's base 89 Octane tune.. Car was running lean due to the MMR intake and we watched the knock sensor pull a fair amount of timing. Lidio made some fuel changes and got the A/F looking really nice. Now we went to add a little bit of timing since I had a tank full of 93.. well the car didn't like it... hmmm... then I re-read Doug's post.. seems he was unable to advance the timing like he wanted to on the automatic car he was working on... hmmm... Of course it's winter here in Michigan so with the winter blends who knows what you are getting! LOL! So we basically just used Lidio's 89 base tune with fuel adjustments for the MMR intake...
I have the dyno sheets at home but won't be able to post them until maybe later in the weekend.... but here's a summary...
My automatic with MMR CAI and single axle-back Magnaflow muffler was putting down 186 to 187RWHP (Torque numbers are at home... argh) This is slightly above Doug's 178RWHP... I believe his automatic had a stock exhaust? That would explain the difference between the 178 and 187... However I believe the C&L has a bigger MAF opening and should provide more gain than the MMR... Lidio will be getting a C&L in and we'll do some testing to see what the difference is...
Now some of you may remember I posted that the car was 194RWHP... so why is it only 187RWHP now? Good question... I definitely have an old graph showing 194... Lidio and I talked about this for a while... gear change, tire change, something changed... LOL! But for the day the car was consistently putting down 186 to 187 RWHP...
So bottom line here is Lidio's 89 octane tune with and MMR intake compete right there with anyone elses tune and intake. The 187RWHP was with very little cool down time between runs... The were all pretty much back to back pulls... The other thing is I have the 4.10 gears which I believe can actually show LESS HP on the dyno... ??? So with the stock 3.31 my HP might have been a bit higher...
Now the other day I ordered Paul's Alternator Pulley kit. Remember we talked about this and whether we could live without the A/C? LOL! Well the belt they supplied with the kit was actually long enough to cover the A/C! I asked them about this since it was supposed to delete the A/C... The guy on the phone said he would have to double check... Acutally I'm kind of happy it's doesn't delete the A/C since it really just a freewheeling pully must all the time... LOL!
Ok... So we replaced the altenator pully... now this pulley is HUGE! (check pics) LIdio's eye's about bugged out when I pulled it out of the box! LOL! Well, we bolt it on while the car is still hot... only takes a few minutes so we can get some fair pulls with the pulley on. Now one thing we were concerned about was the voltage on the alternator since is was spinning soooooo slowly... the alternator showed 14 volts, no problem... even at idle! So all is good there... We make a pull and the HP and TQ show a nice little gain.. RWHP jumped up to 190RWHP... so about a 3 or 4 RWHP gain through the whole pull.. in spots I think it was even 5RWHP gain... there were nice gains especially at the end of the pull... This was with VERY SIMPLE BOLT-ON. Again, sorry I don't have the dyno graph for you right now but will post them asap... So we decided to break for lunch and we really let the car cool down..
So after lunch we make one more "glory" pull... So with the MMR CAI, single Magnaflow muffler and Paul's new altenator pully running Lidio's 89 Octane tune with only adjustment to the fuel to compensate for the MMR CAI the car put down 193RWHP (I believe the TQ was 219RWTQ... i will verify) Thing to remember of course is this is an automatic.
It was a fun day on the dyno... but it's time to settle up so we head into Lidio's office... and then he springs it on me... He will be selling the Vortech kit and at very competitive price... The kit will pretty much include everything except a tuner (and tune?) Lidio's an SCT shop so that's great for us SCT users... Now I don't believe Lidio is looking to get into the internet/mail order business... He's looking for customers that will be bringing their car's in... The kit will be going for around $2950... Dang... do you know how hard it was not to whip out Mr. Visa right there on the spot! Some how I was able to restrain myself... but believe me... the whole drive home I was trying to figure out how to scrape up the dough! LOL!!!!
Ok.. sorry for the long post... but I had a lot of things I wanted to blab about! LOL! Here' s the altenator pics... Dyno sheets to follow!
12/2/05, 05:33 AM
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Sounds good man.. Nice job!! So what are you telling us Scrming? You gonna get blown? LOL!! Somehow I always knew it would be you first! 
$2950 is a very good price for the Vortech kit.. Let me know what you decide to do.. Whats really odd is Lidio is only willing to do this for guys that can bring the cars in? Most people ont live in Michigan.. That doesnt seem fair to people outside of the area!
$2950 is a very good price for the Vortech kit.. Let me know what you decide to do.. Whats really odd is Lidio is only willing to do this for guys that can bring the cars in? Most people ont live in Michigan.. That doesnt seem fair to people outside of the area!
12/2/05, 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by MSP@December 2, 2005, 7:36 AM
Sounds good man.. Nice job!! So what are you telling us Scrming? You gonna get blown? LOL!! Somehow I always knew it would be you first!
$2950 is a very good price for the Vortech kit.. Let me know what you decide to do.. Whats really odd is Lidio is only willing to do this for guys that can bring the cars in? Most people ont live in Michigan.. That doesnt seem fair to people outside of the area!
Sounds good man.. Nice job!! So what are you telling us Scrming? You gonna get blown? LOL!! Somehow I always knew it would be you first!
$2950 is a very good price for the Vortech kit.. Let me know what you decide to do.. Whats really odd is Lidio is only willing to do this for guys that can bring the cars in? Most people ont live in Michigan.. That doesnt seem fair to people outside of the area!
As far as not wanting to do internet sales... anyone interested may want to give him a call and talk to him personally... I think it's the situation where you buy the kit from him... you don't get a proper tune or just install it without a tune... you trash your motor and then next thing you know your blaming Lidio for your toasted car... again... I don't want to put words in anyones's mouth... so I would contatct Lidio....
Now... as far as me... man... it was soooo tempting yesterday... but with Christmas coming up.... Then we have to do our taxes in January... I'm guessing it's going to be more like April before I can make that size of a purchase... oh well... hopefully by the time the tracks start opening up around here I'll either be blown or on the 125HP shot! LOL!
12/2/05, 11:37 AM
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Yeah more info on these pulleys please!
And you're probably right about him not wanting to sell it widely for that reason. Doesnt Vortech offer a warranty when you buy from them? Would that not be extended through Lidio? Really good price, though Id never justify paying the cost to drive up there and what not vs. ordering straight from Vortech..
And you're probably right about him not wanting to sell it widely for that reason. Doesnt Vortech offer a warranty when you buy from them? Would that not be extended through Lidio? Really good price, though Id never justify paying the cost to drive up there and what not vs. ordering straight from Vortech..
12/2/05, 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Zodiac@December 2, 2005, 1:40 PM
Yeah more info on these pulleys please!
And you're probably right about him not wanting to sell it widely for that reason. Doesnt Vortech offer a warranty when you buy from them? Would that not be extended through Lidio? Really good price, though Id never justify paying the cost to drive up there and what not vs. ordering straight from Vortech..
Yeah more info on these pulleys please!
And you're probably right about him not wanting to sell it widely for that reason. Doesnt Vortech offer a warranty when you buy from them? Would that not be extended through Lidio? Really good price, though Id never justify paying the cost to drive up there and what not vs. ordering straight from Vortech..
The pulley kit came with the pully and a belt... I thought the belt would be alot shorter since we all thought it was going to "delete" the A/C... well it was long enough to actually run the A/C also! I called the shop to verify... the guy on the phone wasn't exactly sure... I'm happy with the fact the my A/C still works... I should probably follow up on this... LOL
The pulley swap was easy enough. Some pulleys (like i think PS) used to require a "special" Ford tool to pull them off... This was not the case.. The plastic cover however did not fit back on... so we left it off for now.. the cover would need to be trimmed to fit back on.
The pulley and belt was $159 plus $10 S&H... perhaps kind of expensive for only a couple of HP... but it was a RW gains... and so far the alternator seem to be chargin fine... like I said this was an EASY bolt-on... question will be just how SLOW can you spin these new altenators... LOL!!
Ill try to scan the dyno sheet this weekend and get it posted..
They kit is not listed on their website so you'll need to e-mail or call... (http://www.paulshp.com)
As far as the Vortech... I would guess the warranty is for the Vortech parts ONLY... not your engine.. you know the fine print in most warrantys that say they are liable only for their parts and not any other parts they might damage...
12/2/05, 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Zodiac@December 2, 2005, 2:06 PM
See, now this is a price I like. Who needs AC anyway? (ask me that again this summer)
See, now this is a price I like. Who needs AC anyway? (ask me that again this summer)
that's the thing, my A/C is still working. I'see a 3 to 5 RWHP gain just on the altenator pully... I don't think we'ld see much, if anything at all by "deleting" the A/C unless of course you run your car with the A/C on at the track or on the dyno... LOL
12/2/05, 01:11 PM
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Ok... I got a minute to scan in the dyno showing the before and after on the altenator pulley swap... It doesn't look like much of a gain... but it IS a gain... and I'm guessing we are starting to look every where we can for those extra ponies! LOL!
12/2/05, 07:00 PM
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Nice gains, and nice alternator pulley. Couple that with an underdrive crank and you'll really be making some power.
As for the 178 vs 187 yes, the exhaust does make a huge difference on these cars. Also the numbers can varry from run to run but you still had some good numbers, you also found out how important allowing the engine to cool is with the 05's. I ran my tunes nearly back to back except for the last one and I should have given it a few more minutes to cool even more. I think I'm gonna start waiting 10 minutes between runs on any 05's I do.
Great numbers!
Doug.
As for the 178 vs 187 yes, the exhaust does make a huge difference on these cars. Also the numbers can varry from run to run but you still had some good numbers, you also found out how important allowing the engine to cool is with the 05's. I ran my tunes nearly back to back except for the last one and I should have given it a few more minutes to cool even more. I think I'm gonna start waiting 10 minutes between runs on any 05's I do.
Great numbers!
Doug.
12/2/05, 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Doug904@December 2, 2005, 9:03 PM
Nice gains, and nice alternator pulley. Couple that with an underdrive crank and you'll really be making some power.
As for the 178 vs 187 yes, the exhaust does make a huge difference on these cars. Also the numbers can varry from run to run but you still had some good numbers, you also found out how important allowing the engine to cool is with the 05's. I ran my tunes nearly back to back except for the last one and I should have given it a few more minutes to cool even more. I think I'm gonna start waiting 10 minutes between runs on any 05's I do.
Great numbers!
Doug.
Nice gains, and nice alternator pulley. Couple that with an underdrive crank and you'll really be making some power.
As for the 178 vs 187 yes, the exhaust does make a huge difference on these cars. Also the numbers can varry from run to run but you still had some good numbers, you also found out how important allowing the engine to cool is with the 05's. I ran my tunes nearly back to back except for the last one and I should have given it a few more minutes to cool even more. I think I'm gonna start waiting 10 minutes between runs on any 05's I do.
Great numbers!
Doug.
The question will be what will happen to the alternator if I slow it down even MORE with the crank pulley? Of course we can easily monitor it with LiveLink... and with 4.10s I'll be turning more RPMS when I'm cruising... but what happens when I'm idling in Drive at a stop light at night??? LOL! I just might have to pick up the crank pulley to see what happens... If I have to it's reallys simple to go back to the stock alternator pulley... Do you happen to know if the crank pulley swap requires a new belt or is there enough room on the tensionor to pick up the extra belt fromt the smaller crank pulley?
12/2/05, 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by scrming@December 2, 2005, 9:34 PM
Thanks, Doug!
The question will be what will happen to the alternator if I slow it down even MORE with the crank pulley? Of course we can easily monitor it with LiveLink... and with 4.10s I'll be turning more RPMS when I'm cruising... but what happens when I'm idling in Drive at a stop light at night??? LOL! I just might have to pick up the crank pulley to see what happens... If I have to it's reallys simple to go back to the stock alternator pulley... Do you happen to know if the crank pulley swap requires a new belt or is there enough room on the tensionor to pick up the extra belt fromt the smaller crank pulley?
Thanks, Doug!
The question will be what will happen to the alternator if I slow it down even MORE with the crank pulley? Of course we can easily monitor it with LiveLink... and with 4.10s I'll be turning more RPMS when I'm cruising... but what happens when I'm idling in Drive at a stop light at night??? LOL! I just might have to pick up the crank pulley to see what happens... If I have to it's reallys simple to go back to the stock alternator pulley... Do you happen to know if the crank pulley swap requires a new belt or is there enough room on the tensionor to pick up the extra belt fromt the smaller crank pulley?
Don't know just yet but like you said you can always sell your larger alt pulley. I hope to know something next week, they say they are gonna start shipping them very very soon.
thanks, Doug.
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