Excepcion13

I am seriously considering stroking my car to make her a 4.3L V6. I also want to refit the engine. I am not sure of the price of all of this yet. Why, you may ask, when I can just get a shot of nitrous for $1K to my current set-up and be a beast at the track?

Well, I am not ENTIRELY sure. I think I want to see exactly how much I can get out of the engine without a poweradder or spray. Originally, I was thinking that I could net around 220-230 RWHP before I SC her. But if I refit and stroke, where will I be BEFORE I SC?

I know that it would not be the most cost efficient way, but head work on some other V6s SUPPOSEDLY yields anywhere from 60-90 HP. And that is just head work. On our efficient 4.0s, it may not be that much, but adding .3L to the refitted heads and forged pistons may net that 90 extra HP. IF that is the case, I will be sitting at 300HP before a SC. With a modest 6 psi that has no chance of damaging my newly reinforced engine, is 400 HP a reality? What about 9 psi? Or 12? The engine might be able to take 12, although the driveshaft and axles may be suspect at that HP.

Ladies and gentlemen, those with expertise here, please speak up. I am willing to put down the $ for refitted heads, forged pistons, and a 4.3L V6 IF the gains are right. Adding that to my current set-up plus LT headers, Prochamber, and duals could make my little Jezebel a truly mean machine.

ManEHawke

That's the N/A dream right there. I think it's the ideal setup. For the Forged pistons personally I would love to increase compression conservatively as well. Either to 10.5:1 or even 11:1.
For me that's a dream right now, but it would be exciting to see someone take that path. Go for it!!
Gains from PP heads will be impressive alone, let alone a new cam and more CI's.

hamidlmt

A man with a dream... dig it! Wonder how much all that work would set you back. I'd rather stay n/a since I'm really interested in the longevity of this engine.

rygenstormlocke

Well you already know about supersix, I would give them a call. I find it odd that we havent heard from them regarding a test mule of some type. Unless they are keeping it secret.

Here are some links to information about using a supersix setup:


http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index....8298&hl=stroke

http://forums.bradbarnett.net/index....8180&hl=stroke


I would cut and paste info from these threads to this one to prompt fresh thoughts. As a start, here's a good one from MSP that you might want to look at, has some good projections on numbers that we can expect:


There more in the other threads, and I know you participated in them, but lets review the subject again.

rygenstormlocke

I'm also with you on it, lets dig into this in more detail. But I do want to understand a few things, for the parts, that is pretty easy, cost is significant, but not when you compare it to a SC/TC.

But what about labor. For everything needed, what will be the cost and will the engine have to be pulled out of the engine bay to do this?

TJ06

I would love a N/A like Manhawk said before S/C or T/C for on this particular engine as we are limited on engine design going S/C or T/C. of reaching 400RWHP or higher safely per charger.
But I would not even think of going the stroked route on this engine platform for the following reasons alone.


I do not think a S/C will be poss. with 10.5-1 or 11.5.1 compression on a stroked 4.3, main cap bearing's would not hold on this particular engine. Supercharging you want low 9.0 compression not high so 9.0 is going to defeat stroking the engine for max HP. I also believe on this engine you would be limited after all that work and money because of the design, a stroked and built engine and you can’t even take this up to 7.5K-8k to make full power through out the band because of the (chains & shafts) internal design not good. I IMO wouldn’t even go this route not worth the investment with the above. I do think it is worth building it without pulling the bottom end apart per (seeking HP) in the other thread.

In the end S/C, T/C or nitrous is the way to go, fast economical, and easy.

I know people will disagree with me but it is just my opinion.

Ii is fun to discuss it and I look forward to see you guys debate this.


On a side note check out the dyno result with headers and stock single exhuast 5.0 did not bad!. http://www.mustangforums.com/m_921191/tm.htm

rygenstormlocke

Good response TJ. But wouldn't you agree that chaning out our pistions and other componenets would be good when running a TC/SC at high psi levels? Just to strengthen the engine due to stress of high heat situations. This is uncovered territory, but I plan on changing out the pistons at the very least once I get to some high power levels.

TJ06

I would agree 110% with you Rygn, and IMO of what I know as of now the rods are already forged and crank is supposed to be good weak link is the pistons.

Excepcion13

You are right about the compression. If I stroked the engine then I would just be able to do a nitrous set-up (hopefully). IF I decide to still go SC then I would probably just change the heads and use the dished pistons for a 8.8 compression. The pistons are not forged, but a new set of forged pistons are $725.

Here is the e-mail i sent to Supersix and the response:



The 4.0 crank is not suitable for offset grinding in power adder applications, this means we'd need a custom billet crank, high strength forged rods, and custom forged pistons. We'd shoot for 4.4-4.5L displacement with .060 over bore. The estimated cost of a stroker kit suitable for a power adder would be $3800-$3900 and would include the billet cranks, forged rods, and forged pistons. This crank/rod/piston kit would be capable of well over 500-600 horsepower but of course we really don't know what the upper limit of the block would be. with good preparation, good balancing, the block should tolerate similar power levels.
Tom Yentzer
www.supersixmotorsports.com
478-256-7766

----- Original Message -----
From: rmay3@gmu.edu
To: tyentzer@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:52 PM
Subject: 4.3L V6


Good Evening,

I posted on the forum as well but wanted to shoot an e-mail out. I want to refit my 4.0 and stroke it to be a 4.3. What do I need? Can I get everything from you? What is the bottom line price for the kit and what will I need? I am assuming cams, heads, pistons, head studs, etc, but what else? Also, will the 4.3L allow me to run a SC? And what kind of HP gains can I expect from upgrading my internals and going to 4.3L? Thank you!

I wrote back and asked what the total dollar price would be for Stage three Superheads and the stroker kit and what were the expected gains of it all.

MSP

Agreed... All thats needed for the engine to maintain stability @ HP ratings of 400RWHP + are a few things...

The addition of the high strength headstuds, and the Forged Wiseco Pistons.. The newest incarnation of the SOHC 4.0 accompanied by these few components will no doubt maintain a level of durability.. Thus far, we keep hearing talk of the non-durable nature of the SOHC 4.0 in the 2005 Mustangs.. Thus far, no one has blown one up yet.. Many are pushing it quite hard, but have yet to report anything tragic...

Also, in regards to running at high PSI levels, we know this for a fact.. Currently the motor has been run @ 12PSI with the stock pistons... The stock compression ratio is 9.7:1.. Installing the Forged Wiseco pistons will lower the compression ratio to 8.8:1.. This effectively allows us to apply a safe 14PSI to the motor.. This of course is without the headstuds.. We dont have data on how much stress the stock headstuds can take.. But adding the aftermarket highstrength head studs makes sense...

It is more than likely that in full aftermarket internal trim the SOHC could easily maintain a level of 500RWHP...

With the addition of a Snow Performance Water/Methonal kit, it may be possible to grab and additional 2 to 3 PSI on the motor making 16 to 17PSI of boost possible..

http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=1


So I persoanlly dont buy anything about our motors not having what it takes...

Gash05

Hopefully before summer ends I'll have a good chunk of the SSM product line in my engine. I think this is the way to go before you add any sort of major power adder. I talked with the guy from TMA Turbo (custom turbo kits for the 3.8L mustang) and he informed me that on a stock motor they can get around 350rwhp at 10-11psi. On a built motor (he just said built, not specific parts) you can attain the same rwhp with 7-8psi. So there's definately an advantage in buying these motor building modifications, especially when you're going the turbo route. And I do believe it's worth every penny.

Gash05

I'm with you on this one, but for the most potential, one should look into building their motor (which is really obvious but I'm still throwing it out there )

MSP

Its going to be very interesting to see a 2005 SOHC 4.0 with the addition of the Wiseco forged 8.8:1 pistons....

This is an option I may pursue as my next major modification... Just the pistons, on top of our already forged rods... There is no doubt that this will make 400RWHP safe for a daily driver.. But could it be more? Adding those pistons to our motor really levels the playing field quite abit... I think adding those pistons are the single most importanant mod one can do...

@ $725 bucks, plus install it sure is something to consider..

TJ06

I agree with Rygn and MSP just change out the piston's run 9.0 or as MSP said 8.8 and run the snow kit and bam! your running 12-14 psi safely. Your not streesing the shafts and chains per stroker your doing it under 5800 RPM, (5400 per PH turbo) not dropping a Sh@T load of money in it, and are pushing 400+ RWHP easy.

(of course cam's & head work are another optional with the above setup)

Excepcion13

No, nor do I. But they can be made stronger. But it will cost. Depending on exactly what you want to do, parts alone will be from $725 for the pistons to $2,825 for pistons, cams, superheads, and head studs.

For the total kit including the stroker kit, superheads, etc, it will be around $6,000 for parts. I asked Supersix if they could sell it all for $5,000. We will see what they say.

IF I stroked it to the 4.5L, ot the superheads, etc, and added nitrous, what am i looking at powerwise? For example, with that kind of refitment, could I run 150 shot of nitrous, and what kind of numbers would I be looking at?

The numbers posted by MSP are very informative, but we know a few extra things now. For example, I already have that RWHP and RWTQ, so stroking my car should take me well above that. Add the Stage 2 or 3 heads, and I am thinking around 300 HP BEFORE the nitrous shot. Remember, I am just making this stuff up, PLEASE advise. Add a 150 HP shot (I am hoping that the engine could now take it), and using MSPs projections, that is over 400HP at the crank.

I know, there are easier ways of getting that power, but my mind is trying to exhaust all possibilites and milk your minds of all of your knowlwdge!!!

I will probably end up with a hodgepodge of additions (pistons but no cams, etc.) before it is said and done.

BTW, any ideas on gains from just the Stage 3 Heads, forged pistons, and reground cams? That's $3K for parts.

BurntPony

What about SSMs concern with the head/block configeration? 12 holes around each cylinder. How is anyone going to run 12psi and not blow head gaskets on a regular basis?

This is what I see as a realistic package in our 4.0 Stang:

Full performance exhaust
SSM head/cam package
S/C at 6-9psi
water injection or intercooler
Custom tune

I think your looking at 350+ rwhp right there, and a 100,000+ mile engine. Thats without tearing into the bottom end.

What good is spending all that time and money if you cant keep it together or use it as a daily driver?

Thomas S

I'm sorry but if I'm going to pull my motor out and spend that much money to beef it up, I'd just switch to a V8. What they are talking about there wouldn't give you 500-600hp, it would give you a strong enough bottom end to make that much. You would still have to spend another few thousand to make that much hp. You might as well swap to a terminator motor. This may not be the popular opinion but I'm just looking at cost effectiveness here.

Excepcion13

Jimp, I do not believe your opinion will be unpopular. In fact, it seems the consensus. I just wanted to spark some discussion and get some respected opinions on the matter.

I didn't get the price of the stroker kit until this morning and did not know at first that the $3,800 would not include new heads. However, if SSM comes up with a decently priced package with everything that would put me at 300RWHP NA then I would consider doing that with no SC and just running nitrous. But that will probably not happen, as it would have to run me about the cost of a SC/TC.

$6,000 for just parts is steep. But let's say a stroker package with heads/cams/headstuds, etc., basically the whole kit and caboodle for under $5K, then I would seriously consider it.

I think that BurntPony is right, and through the course of this discussion I have come away with some good information. While new heads and pistons are probably not necessary for low PSI, they will improve performance and ensure long term stability.

Maybe if a couple of us order together we can get a deal on the heads/cams/piston deal. Instead of 2,800 maybe 2,500 or less. Just a thought. I am not ready to pull the trigger on this anytime soon, just putting out the feelers.

scrming

well according to that same SSM article I should have blown my head gaskets the first time I sprayed the juice... I think there was a lot of doom and gloom in that article that was unwarranted... perhaps to boost sales??? LOL!

Excepcion13

I was wondering where you were! I am sure that there was bias in that article and I am sure that sales were involved. However, I also believe that there is some truth in there, also. The trick is figuring out which is which. Plus, switching the heads and pistons will gie a performance gain. Whether it is worth the gain is a different matter entirely.

Did you also read what it said about the stock headers? It shows a picture of them next to some MAC shorties and says that one side is good but the other side sucks.

I am going to stay in contact with SSM and see what they are willing to do. I like the idea of new heads and pistons. I would LOVE to do all of that stuff when adding an X-Charger. But only if it is not cost prohibitive.

I also like the idea of stroking the engine and replacing the heads and going NA with the odd shot of spray if the numbers are high and the price is right.

Thanks, everyone, for the lively discussion.