Just out of curiosity, why is it that FRPP doesn't include an adjustable panhard bar with their handling pack ?

After speaking with a FRPP tech rep. He claimed that according to one of their engineers, they do not recommend using an adjustable panhard bar with their handling/lowering pack, for daily driven street use. Due that an adjustable bar will supposedly shift the rear, off center in the opposite direction if the rear wheels make contact, by going over a moderate sized bump in the pavement.

So my question is this: Is there any truth to this guy's statement, or is he just plain full of it lol?

Unless of course, that's why they recommend upgrading to their rear sway bar kit

 

My guess is part of the reason they don't include it is because w/ stock width tires/rims the difference wouldn't be as noticeable. The tech doesn't seem to realize that the point of the adj phb is to center the rear end because do to geometry, lowering the car moves the rearend-body alignment slightly from it's stock relationship.
"the rear wheels make contact, by going over a moderate sized bump in the pavement" This part loses me. Rear wheels make contact with what? The solid rear axle will still function the same... unless I'm missing something.

 

He claims that by going over a moderate size pavement bump, will throw the rear end body alignment off in the opposite direction, if using an adjustable panhard bar.

Btw: I must also be missing something, because that part also lost me as well, and doesn't make any logical sense at all.

 

If the person in question knew how the adjustable bar works he would never have claimed the statement about hitting a bump. An adjustable panhard bar only allows you to center the body over the axle, then it locks that adjustment in place. Hitting a bump in the road wouldn't be any different than with the stock bar. The reason (IMO) they don't include it is because FRPP is hit and miss as far as the quality and performance of their products. In other words, they aren't perfect. The Whipple blower is a good item and so are a lot of other FRPP parts, but some of the products are inferior to other aftermarket performance parts available. Like the stamped steel Hurst shifter or the cheap Ford Racing sill plates that people have complained about.

I agree with you though. FRPP should include an adjustable panhard rod if the car is being lowered along with an adjustable upper control arm to correct pinion angle.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Anthony. I knew that something just didn't add up. Especially when the idiot in question, claimed that their engineers were against recommending the use of an adjustable panhard bar.

 

There was a long thread on this forum a few months ago on adjustable panhard bars, or more precisely, do you normally NEED one. I'm one of the lucky ones who's lowered car (Eibach Pro springs) has a perfectly centered rear end (measured several times!). If you do the math on the geometry, you find the rear end can only shift a VERY small amount, even for fairly large drops (2, 2 1/2 inches). Worse case was a bit more than 1/16". Worse case.

So, if you are interested, feel free to search for that thread and go through it. But I suspect the reason FRPP didn't include an adjustable PHB is it wasn't needed.

 

No offense, but I strongly disagree, and here's why. Nearly every member on this website who has lowered their vehicle, has strongly recommended upgrading to an adjustable panhard bar for the following reason.

The purpose of an adjustable PHB, re-centers the body over the rear axle from which modifying and lowering the suspension, causes the body to go slightly out of alignment. And here's what else really bothers me, if an adjustable Panhard bar isn't really needed, why is that every aftermarket company, including Steeda who's also Ford's direct partner in their technology transfer program, also recommend upgrading to an adjustable PHB?

Seem to me, that re-centering the body over the rear axle, is definitely a very good reason.

As to why FRPP doesn't, is sure beyond my comprehension that's for sure !

 

But there's a big reason why members recommend upgrading to the APHB when lowering, and that's because it's often done with wider wheels. I'm sure there's some tolerance at the factory for the rear being slightly out of center. This would explain why some people lower and find it to be out of center, and other people lower and find it to be nearly dead on. The adjustments people make are normally pretty slight. If you were to just lower the car w/ the FRPP pack, the off center amount wouldn't be very noticeable with the stock wheel/tire set-up. But, when you're adding wider wheels that push the tires to the edge of the lip, the slightest amount out of the well becomes noticeable. Since most people are adding wheels when doing the drop, they're feeling of need for the APHB.

There's another way in-depth thread on exactly how much the lowering is moving the center, but it involved way too much geometry for me. Bottom line is, lowering the car does change center, but very slightly. People who were slightly near one end of the factory tolerance range have either found the lowering to put the car dead on, or just a little bit further off than it already was.

Edit: When I lowered my car, I did it with wheels and didn't put the APHB on right away. Let me find some of those pics and show what a minimal difference it makes.

 

If the FRPP swaybar that comes with the pack the same size as the stocker, it'll probably be too long. But if it's cut down and just a little bit shorter to compensate for the shorter springs, then it doesn't have to be adjustable because it is already set for the springs/shocks that come with the kit. Seeing that it is sold as a kit for the S197, it is very possible that it is already the correct length for "most" cars, and just a tad shorter than the stocker. Of course, not all cars are the same.

When I lowered my car, I couldn't easily see that passenger side rear was sticking out 1/4" more than the other, and that was only a 1" drop.

 

Sorry, I know they're not the ideal close-ups of the rear end, but they're the best I got. Before and Afters of the APHB:





You can always just do what I did. Lower the car w/out the APHB and then add it on later if you find it's necessary. It's only a 15 minute job - I think it's best to do it with the car on the ground or ramps.

 

Seems to me Brad, that both yourself, and John have cleared up some of my doubts. For I'm not ashamed to admit, that when it comes to suspension mods that I'm a complete newbie, and definitely welcome all the help and support I can possibly get lol.


In the meantime, I don't plan on upgrading to larger wheels/tires at this time, so perhaps it does make some sense, as to why FRPP doesn't require the use of an adjustable PHB.

I'll also be checking back with Marty from FRPP, to find out if their rear sway bar, is either shorter or the same size as the stocker. In which I'll definitely post the answer, as soon as I find out

 

Hey John, nice pics. I especially like the SHR louvers and ducktail spoiler. However I forgot to ask, what lowering/spring kit did you select, and are you still using the stock wheel/tire setup?

 

Thanks! FRPP Springs, and tires and wheels aren't stock, the wheels are 20x8.5,F and 20X10,R with 255/35/20 F tires and 295/30/20 in the rear. Good luck on the mods. One thing you might want to investigate is does the FRPP pack include something to adjust the camber. When I installed my FRPP springs I had a visual camber problem, and at the alignment shop they couldn't get it into spec w/out purchasing camber bolts.

 

If the body's not centered over the axle it will cause the car to go sideways more easily when the tires break loose, especially when they break loose at highway speeds which can be more dangerous than it already is without lowering the car. It doesn't matter how wide your tires are. It's not all about getting the car to look right, it's about having everything lined up properly.

 

I don't understand what the length of the sway bar has to do with it. Wouldn't the sway bars all be the same lenght, just larger diameter?

Are you refering to the length of the panhard bar?

 

My guess, is if the FRPP sway bar, does not re-center the body over the rear axle. Then an adjustable PHB, is still required to ensure that the body is re-centered.

 

None taken. Its a free country. More or less these days.

Look at this post http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showpo...9&postcount=45 It has the calculations on MY car when I lowered it with Eibach Pro springs. FYI, the calculations are BACKED UP by measurements of the side to side clearance between the wheels and the fender lip. The axle is still centered...

The short summary is lowering MY car 1 1/2" shifted the axle 1/32". Or 0.0366" for the fractionally challenged. You would be hard pressed to MEASURE that change with a tape measure, let alone see it with your eyes.

To sell parts??? How many times have we seen aftermarket companies come out with some part that does NOTHING, but they market it like it is the magic 100 mpg carburetor? They are in the business to make money. To do that, they have to sell stuff.

If you are off center to begin with, I agree. But lowering it a couple of inches doesn't move it off center enough to even notice. So this gets shot down pretty quickly.

Maybe because their engineers actually KNOW how much the axle will change with lowering springs and KNOW that this amount is trivial?

Think about the forces on the bushings on the panhard bar during spirited cornering. Do you think that rubber will compress MORE or LESS than 1/32"??? What is the total suspension travel when the suspension is first unloaded than loaded? The axle will move a LOT more than 1/32". When you look at the forces acting on the axle during normal driving and the shifts that WILL cause in the axle position, the 1/32" change from lowering the car is pretty insignificant.

And if that is unacceptable, I would DEFINITELY recommend you upgrade to a Watts link instead. It WILL keep the axle center MUCH better than a panhard rod ever could. But there are trade offs. When you pay for the kit, you will see the first one. When you try to pick up the box the UPS Ground guy left on your front porch, you will see the second trade off.

 

My car's body was centered before lowering it. It was maybe 1/8'' off at the most. I dropped the car about 1'' and it was off center 3/8''. After installing a panhard bar the car doesn't get nearly as squirrely when the tires break loose at 60 mph.

 

I agree with RRRoamer. The change in offset is hardly worth anything, even for a 1.5" rear drop. However as a tuning tool to tighten up on the factory tolerance and alignment an adjustable panhard bar is useful.

 

Another one in agreement. At first I was a little pissed when I put my springs on, since the car was perfectly centered with the stock panhard bar and I had already ordered an adjustable bar. But...when I lifted both of them and saw just how heavy the stock panhard was compared to an aftermarket aluminum one, I didn't hesitate to install the aftermarket bar.