What's With The Censorship?
11/10/06, 04:13 PM
#1
Mach 1 Member
Thread Starter
What's With The Censorship?
Hey Guys, I know that some of the GMS post are getting a little out of control at times but lets now act like the Gestapo? We are always going to have people that no matter what, are going to slap down one vendor or another....This one just concerns GMS and a couple of haters but what happens if it hits DOUG/Bama or Brenspeed or BMR? We going to shut down those as well. I just think that it's sorta like looking at a playboy. You don't have to buy it if you don't want to but I still have the right to if I want. Kinda goes with these posts as long as they don't get vulgar or way off the topic, what reason can there be for locking them other than blatant censorship. I mean, look at them...THey generate more looks than most others combined so they can't be that bad.....Just thought I would throw this out and see how far it flies. Do others agree?
11/10/06, 04:38 PM
#3
This is a privately owned message board, and can you blame the owners if they don't want to get involved with slander? At TMS the advertisers here have all been reviewed and are endorsed because they are quality vendors. If there's a big company that's not advertising here, there may be a reason for that.
11/10/06, 05:02 PM
#4
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I've noticed a lot of questions/slams aimed at vendors for "copying" designs.. well in all honesty and their defense, there are only so many configurations and designs you can come up with...
I don't care if X company copied y's design or could care less who got it from who..... or that they didn't and they look alike.. I just want;
a. a good/reasonable price
b. something that works
c. good customer service
I dont agree with the slamming of vendors, namely GMS recently (for example)...
JR took time out of his saturday with his kids to meet me somewhere to drop off the parts I ordered because I wanted them sooner than have to wait to ship them. We met, talked for a bit... he's a great guy.
I personally don't understand all the hating... but glad to see the posts like that locked or nuked.
I don't care if X company copied y's design or could care less who got it from who..... or that they didn't and they look alike.. I just want;
a. a good/reasonable price
b. something that works
c. good customer service
I dont agree with the slamming of vendors, namely GMS recently (for example)...
JR took time out of his saturday with his kids to meet me somewhere to drop off the parts I ordered because I wanted them sooner than have to wait to ship them. We met, talked for a bit... he's a great guy.
I personally don't understand all the hating... but glad to see the posts like that locked or nuked.
11/10/06, 07:51 PM
#5
There is a thing in the United States called a Patent ( and to a lesser extent a trademark and copyright). It is designed to protect the intellectual property rights of the original inventor so that they may profit from their invention for a period of time. It is one of the fundamental protections that makes our economy so vibrant and able to adapt to changes quickly compared to those of most of the world. Companies are more than welcome to license a patent to manufacture said product for a small fee normally, or design a "workaround" that does not infringe on said Patent claims if they choose not to just re-sell the first company's product and profit as a "middle-man". Even in absence of a US Patent, manufacturers normally like to differentiate their products from others in the market so as to make their own following, not duplicate another company's efforts exactly, unless of course the intent is to steal marketshare from the originating company at the expense of the first company's market.
Unfortunately, in today's business world, many companies have found that it is easier to litigate patent rights in court than it is to actually design their own products. Small companies that can't afford to be properly represented in court are squashed, and those that can still then have to pass along those legal costs to the customer because the money has to come from somewhere. And even if the company can successfully defend a patent claim, the punitive damages are normally not enough to cover the legal costs involved. So again, the customer loses in either case - a perfect case of biting off your nose to spite your face...
As to the price - you get what you pay for. Although the United States is becoming more price competitive by the day, manufacturing products here in the USA using US labor still on average does cost a small amount more than importing from overseas. Of course, maybe the economy of your country and the financial stability of your next door neighbor are not of any concern to you, but the US trade deficit sure could use a correction before China can outright purchase our country for all the money we will owe them. But hey, if you save 10.00, who cares, right? After all, you know how many innovative new products that you'd actually want to put on a Mustang come from places like China... and I think we can all agree that there is a difference in quality, even though the imports have made great strides in recent years, they still have a long way to go in a great many fields. And rest assured, when they get their quality to equal the US version, their price advantage tends to disappear - funny how that works out...
As to the mods locking the threads - they have every right to do so, and if prior legal precedent regarding liability of ownership is any indication, they are being very prudent in their decisions (see above regarding legal injunctions tying things up). Of course, if a thread contains verifiable facts (tech), and not just a bunch of people fighting over their opinions (worth absolutely nothing), well then I'm sure that a thread like that could continue on indefinitely, no matter the end result because facts are not slanderous speech.
Disclaimer:
These though are just random thoughts about companies, law, and production differences / capabilities in general today, and in no way are any reflection on any one company. I speak as a manufacturer of products made in the USA, that are covered under one or more pending US patents. We also own the trademark and copyrights to our intellectual property, and so my discussion is based solely on my experience in creating and defending those rights and protections in today's business world.
YMMV...
11/10/06, 08:26 PM
#6
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I can't agree more! The owner of the company I work for has numorous patents that protects their products. People try to knock them off and we stop them. The owner spent years making the product work properly and it just isn't right for someone to come in and steal his ideas, work, money spent by duplicating the item.
I don't recall any slander...just stating the facts.
Ummm........I don't think this is GT Performance and tech related. Atleast that other thread was a bit more on topic than this one.
I don't recall any slander...just stating the facts.
Ummm........I don't think this is GT Performance and tech related. Atleast that other thread was a bit more on topic than this one.
11/10/06, 08:48 PM
#7
There was no reason for this thread to go past post #2. Anyway, I can't nor do I want to go into detail, but certain threads were closed due to the legal system coming into play. Im not going any farther than that, so lets please not dwell on who said what about who and all the other crap that has gone along with it.
Have a great evening.
Have a great evening.
11/10/06, 09:50 PM
#8
You are correct, and if you felt my statements were out of line, I apologize for that. I was just bringing to light some of the legal and ethical points to consider, and more importantly, what happens to customers and companies in the marketplace in general when the game isn't played "fair". Examples outside of the automotive field abound, look no further than Mexico where 9 out of 10 pairs of Nike's are counterfeit - and that's not an opinion. IIRC just recently there was a big bust as they were trying to bring the counterfeits into the US and got caught, but in parts of the world where enforcement is lax, to say the least, the originating company loses big time.
Of course, this is a Performance thread, and discsussions regarding Nike's issues overseas and abroad really don't have a place here.
Peace out - I'm done.
Of course, this is a Performance thread, and discsussions regarding Nike's issues overseas and abroad really don't have a place here.
Peace out - I'm done.
11/10/06, 10:14 PM
#9
You should.
There is a thing in the United States called a Patent ( and to a lesser extent a trademark and copyright). It is designed to protect the intellectual property rights of the original inventor so that they may profit from their invention for a period of time. It is one of the fundamental protections that makes our economy so vibrant and able to adapt to changes quickly compared to those of most of the world. Companies are more than welcome to license a patent to manufacture said product for a small fee normally, or design a "workaround" that does not infringe on said Patent claims if they choose not to just re-sell the first company's product and profit as a "middle-man". Even in absence of a US Patent, manufacturers normally like to differentiate their products from others in the market so as to make their own following, not duplicate another company's efforts exactly, unless of course the intent is to steal marketshare from the originating company at the expense of the first company's market.
Unfortunately, in today's business world, many companies have found that it is easier to litigate patent rights in court than it is to actually design their own products. Small companies that can't afford to be properly represented in court are squashed, and those that can still then have to pass along those legal costs to the customer because the money has to come from somewhere. And even if the company can successfully defend a patent claim, the punitive damages are normally not enough to cover the legal costs involved. So again, the customer loses in either case - a perfect case of biting off your nose to spite your face...
As to the price - you get what you pay for. Although the United States is becoming more price competitive by the day, manufacturing products here in the USA using US labor still on average does cost a small amount more than importing from overseas. Of course, maybe the economy of your country and the financial stability of your next door neighbor are not of any concern to you, but the US trade deficit sure could use a correction before China can outright purchase our country for all the money we will owe them. But hey, if you save 10.00, who cares, right? After all, you know how many innovative new products that you'd actually want to put on a Mustang come from places like China... and I think we can all agree that there is a difference in quality, even though the imports have made great strides in recent years, they still have a long way to go in a great many fields. And rest assured, when they get their quality to equal the US version, their price advantage tends to disappear - funny how that works out...
As to the mods locking the threads - they have every right to do so, and if prior legal precedent regarding liability of ownership is any indication, they are being very prudent in their decisions (see above regarding legal injunctions tying things up). Of course, if a thread contains verifiable facts (tech), and not just a bunch of people fighting over their opinions (worth absolutely nothing), well then I'm sure that a thread like that could continue on indefinitely, no matter the end result because facts are not slanderous speech.
Disclaimer:
These though are just random thoughts about companies, law, and production differences / capabilities in general today, and in no way are any reflection on any one company. I speak as a manufacturer of products made in the USA, that are covered under one or more pending US patents. We also own the trademark and copyrights to our intellectual property, and so my discussion is based solely on my experience in creating and defending those rights and protections in today's business world.
YMMV...
There is a thing in the United States called a Patent ( and to a lesser extent a trademark and copyright). It is designed to protect the intellectual property rights of the original inventor so that they may profit from their invention for a period of time. It is one of the fundamental protections that makes our economy so vibrant and able to adapt to changes quickly compared to those of most of the world. Companies are more than welcome to license a patent to manufacture said product for a small fee normally, or design a "workaround" that does not infringe on said Patent claims if they choose not to just re-sell the first company's product and profit as a "middle-man". Even in absence of a US Patent, manufacturers normally like to differentiate their products from others in the market so as to make their own following, not duplicate another company's efforts exactly, unless of course the intent is to steal marketshare from the originating company at the expense of the first company's market.
Unfortunately, in today's business world, many companies have found that it is easier to litigate patent rights in court than it is to actually design their own products. Small companies that can't afford to be properly represented in court are squashed, and those that can still then have to pass along those legal costs to the customer because the money has to come from somewhere. And even if the company can successfully defend a patent claim, the punitive damages are normally not enough to cover the legal costs involved. So again, the customer loses in either case - a perfect case of biting off your nose to spite your face...
As to the price - you get what you pay for. Although the United States is becoming more price competitive by the day, manufacturing products here in the USA using US labor still on average does cost a small amount more than importing from overseas. Of course, maybe the economy of your country and the financial stability of your next door neighbor are not of any concern to you, but the US trade deficit sure could use a correction before China can outright purchase our country for all the money we will owe them. But hey, if you save 10.00, who cares, right? After all, you know how many innovative new products that you'd actually want to put on a Mustang come from places like China... and I think we can all agree that there is a difference in quality, even though the imports have made great strides in recent years, they still have a long way to go in a great many fields. And rest assured, when they get their quality to equal the US version, their price advantage tends to disappear - funny how that works out...
As to the mods locking the threads - they have every right to do so, and if prior legal precedent regarding liability of ownership is any indication, they are being very prudent in their decisions (see above regarding legal injunctions tying things up). Of course, if a thread contains verifiable facts (tech), and not just a bunch of people fighting over their opinions (worth absolutely nothing), well then I'm sure that a thread like that could continue on indefinitely, no matter the end result because facts are not slanderous speech.
Disclaimer:
These though are just random thoughts about companies, law, and production differences / capabilities in general today, and in no way are any reflection on any one company. I speak as a manufacturer of products made in the USA, that are covered under one or more pending US patents. We also own the trademark and copyrights to our intellectual property, and so my discussion is based solely on my experience in creating and defending those rights and protections in today's business world.
YMMV...
Anyway, I think the point 06GTwBOOST was trying to make is that concerning all of the CAI debate going on here of late, all of these CAI's look the same. 99% of them all end up in the same location ahead of the driver's side shock tower. How different can you design a piece in that small a space?
Now to get back on topic, I'm not sure I understand what the legal reasons for TMS could be other than not wanting to get involved. I say let people speak their mind as long as it's "clean". If someone posts something slanderous that would be their problem not a TMS problem, wouldn't it?
I'm no legal scholar so I certainly could be wrong but it's definitely more interesting with these topics "open" than "closed", I do know that!
Last edited by Fords4Ever; 3/6/08 at 03:51 PM.
11/10/06, 11:24 PM
#10
I think you meant boring. Sorry I couldn't be more entertaining, but like I said, I'm done with this line of thought.
Unfortunately, my boring post was pretty spot-on regarding the legal issues faced by your first amendment claim that has no bearing on a privately owned and operated forum.
So again, I'm done here, boring or not. Whether I made any new friends or not.
Unfortunately, my boring post was pretty spot-on regarding the legal issues faced by your first amendment claim that has no bearing on a privately owned and operated forum.
So again, I'm done here, boring or not. Whether I made any new friends or not.
11/11/06, 09:05 AM
#11
I think you meant boring. Sorry I couldn't be more entertaining, but like I said, I'm done with this line of thought.
Unfortunately, my boring post was pretty spot-on regarding the legal issues faced by your first amendment claim that has no bearing on a privately owned and operated forum.
So again, I'm done here, boring or not. Whether I made any new friends or not.
Unfortunately, my boring post was pretty spot-on regarding the legal issues faced by your first amendment claim that has no bearing on a privately owned and operated forum.
So again, I'm done here, boring or not. Whether I made any new friends or not.
Second, I understand what you are saying about this being a privately owned and operated site and nobody wants to see Brad have to shut it down over this stupid GMS / Doug / C&L issue. It's just it's a shame when an entertaining thread get's locked up - even for the right reasons.
Third of all, I noticed you had no comment on my actual claim which is that most of the CAIs on the market are nearly identical.
Finally I don't know if you made any friends but I hope no enemies. Healthy debate is always a good thing!
11/11/06, 09:11 AM
#12
Check your PM - there is a reason I didn't go into detail in public about the one point I did not address.
And yes, healthy debate is a good thing. Unfortunately, that can't be the case given the subject matter.
Oh, and I'm sure someone, somewhere doesn't like me too much right now... but I think I'll get over it.
And yes, healthy debate is a good thing. Unfortunately, that can't be the case given the subject matter.
Oh, and I'm sure someone, somewhere doesn't like me too much right now... but I think I'll get over it.
11/11/06, 10:05 AM
#13
I like you.. do you like me?
In all seriousness, scott's post #2 pretty much sums it up.... its not personal or directed to anyone, its just the way things have to be right now.
11/11/06, 12:22 PM
#14
You should.
There is a thing in the United States called a Patent ( and to a lesser extent a trademark and copyright). It is designed to protect the intellectual property rights of the original inventor so that they may profit from their invention for a period of time. It is one of the fundamental protections that makes our economy so vibrant and able to adapt to changes quickly compared to those of most of the world. Companies are more than welcome to license a patent to manufacture said product for a small fee normally, or design a "workaround" that does not infringe on said Patent claims if they choose not to just re-sell the first company's product and profit as a "middle-man". Even in absence of a US Patent, manufacturers normally like to differentiate their products from others in the market so as to make their own following, not duplicate another company's efforts exactly, unless of course the intent is to steal marketshare from the originating company at the expense of the first company's market.
Unfortunately, in today's business world, many companies have found that it is easier to litigate patent rights in court than it is to actually design their own products. Small companies that can't afford to be properly represented in court are squashed, and those that can still then have to pass along those legal costs to the customer because the money has to come from somewhere. And even if the company can successfully defend a patent claim, the punitive damages are normally not enough to cover the legal costs involved. So again, the customer loses in either case - a perfect case of biting off your nose to spite your face...
There is a thing in the United States called a Patent ( and to a lesser extent a trademark and copyright). It is designed to protect the intellectual property rights of the original inventor so that they may profit from their invention for a period of time. It is one of the fundamental protections that makes our economy so vibrant and able to adapt to changes quickly compared to those of most of the world. Companies are more than welcome to license a patent to manufacture said product for a small fee normally, or design a "workaround" that does not infringe on said Patent claims if they choose not to just re-sell the first company's product and profit as a "middle-man". Even in absence of a US Patent, manufacturers normally like to differentiate their products from others in the market so as to make their own following, not duplicate another company's efforts exactly, unless of course the intent is to steal marketshare from the originating company at the expense of the first company's market.
Unfortunately, in today's business world, many companies have found that it is easier to litigate patent rights in court than it is to actually design their own products. Small companies that can't afford to be properly represented in court are squashed, and those that can still then have to pass along those legal costs to the customer because the money has to come from somewhere. And even if the company can successfully defend a patent claim, the punitive damages are normally not enough to cover the legal costs involved. So again, the customer loses in either case - a perfect case of biting off your nose to spite your face...
P.S. Marcello, shoot me an email when you have a chance.
11/11/06, 01:35 PM
#15
Mach 1 Member
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You're a great thinker Marcello.......and very insightful. After reading that "other thread" I understand what you meant by protecting your intellectual property rights. I understand that your product was not only copied........but aren't they using the actual picture of YOUR product to advertise theirs?????
11/11/06, 04:15 PM
#16
Yes, and I've asked a couple of the dealers to stop using the image. Since it's spread all over the Internet now, I hope that the level to which they are willing to go will only be matched by people learning of what really went on. We have been updating our photos anyway, and are taking our machining to a whole new level of sophistication for the automotive aftermarket, so I'm really not going to lose too much sleep over this. I'd like to have them at least take their own pictures, but it's spread so far now that I don't know if it can really be stopped. It's again a case of a small company not currently being on the same footing as the big company, financially speaking, since we are re-investing everything into more innovative products.
The time will come however when hopefully a "grassroots" campaign to make people aware of what is transpiring will not be required. And that will be a fun day.
The time will come however when hopefully a "grassroots" campaign to make people aware of what is transpiring will not be required. And that will be a fun day.
11/11/06, 04:30 PM
#17
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Anyway, I think the point 06GTwBOOST was trying to make is that concerning all of the CAI debate going on here of late, all of these CAI's look the same. 99% of them all end up in the same location ahead of the driver's side shock tower. How different can you design a piece in that small a space?
that was the point i was making....
I work at one of the lawfirms that deals with a LOT of copyright and patent law suits and helped out with TiVo, Sony and a few other large cases, so I know about copyright law... that wasn't my point.
I want a good product at a good price with support if I need it...
Fords saw the point i was making....
99.99% of the intakes end up in the same spot, with almost hte same diameter intake, almost hte same style and size of filter with a slight variation in color or finish... With the exception of the WMS and the Shaker.. heck even the shaker has the filter in the same spot as the aftermarket and stock filters...
Another example is end links for the swaybars...
I searched 5 sites and all of them had endlinks that looked so similar is design I was wondering if they all bought them from one source and renamed them or if they stole the plans... There are only so many ways you can make an endlink....
11/11/06, 06:31 PM
#19
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Marcello has hit the head of the nail so many times, it has fused with the hammer. Key difference between Marcello and the rest of the "opinions" in this thread is his actual first hand knowledge of the subject. Oh, and working at Microsoft doesn't make me an expert on VB .net if you know what I mean.
We can all debate this until we're blue in the face, but when it all washes out none of our opinions have actual bearing on the issue at hand and its legal weight. What they do have bearing on is whether you, as a consumer, feel comfortable about the product and its claimed abilities.
We can all debate this until we're blue in the face, but when it all washes out none of our opinions have actual bearing on the issue at hand and its legal weight. What they do have bearing on is whether you, as a consumer, feel comfortable about the product and its claimed abilities.
11/11/06, 06:46 PM
#20
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