65sohc

Like they used to say on Mad TV, "It blowed up good. It blowed up REAL good."

boyzNtoyz

Why would Ford need to put in a forged piston and rod? How many stock motors have we seen blow up? You have to pay to play...

max2000jp

It would have been nice if Ford would have put more stout rods in. It wouldn't cost the consumer much up front had they done that.

Rebel73

yup, you don't need a 12lb pulley to hit 450+ rwhp. Its' EASY with just a 10lb. I was putting down about that much with a "conservative" tune.

Note to self: DO NOT get greedy with the boost!

2kanchoo

Most guys I've talked to agree +475rwhp with stock internals = on a short clock. I know I wouldn't risk going any higher than that without being forged.t There are guys that have gotten away with it but why take a chance? (unless of course you are rich and money doesn't matter)

tom281

That's exactly why I posted it..... this failure had nothing to do with the type of blower, etc.... it was about pushing the limit and trying to set a new standard and this is what usually happens when you throw caution to the wind.

Torched05stang

Not starting a biatch session. Make sure you read ALL of the post.
I didn't mention what charger until someone asked. It doesn't matter what supercharger.The point of this matter is for everyone to be carefull with their boost on a stock shortblock. Just showing what could happen.........It was a performance shops mustang but I'm not going to mention who's...........LOL

Torched05stang

I've seen alot of motors blown up over the last 20 years including one of mine. You should know being a Ford tech. Gotha love the Crown Victoria motors. We replace about one a week.

But again its job security for you and I (Ford parts sales)

conv_stang

um....i dont see the problem. just put in some new pistons and an oil pan and get to racing!

but wow, that had to have been some spectacle to see in person!

WayneA

I’m a little confused. Is the general consensus on why this happened, running lean (detonation) or to much strain on the stock engine due to high boost? It looks like everyone from Ford Racing to Saleen is selling a HO SC kit ranging from 500 to over 600 HP. Are they expecting you to change your rods and pistons when using one?

Only the Saleen 600 HP 12lbs kit requires forged internals. The 550 HP kit doesn't, but both use a 2.875 pulley, go figure.

-Wayne

Bullitt995

It's funny how most of the guys in this thread preaching against boost and staying below 450rwhp don't have any form of FI on their car. Why would you listen to anyone who has ZERO personal experience with forced induction on these cars? I should go start a "which oil is best?" thread so we can clear the morons out of this thread.

SoundGuyDave

Just a couple of things... You NEVER know who you're talking to on these forums, so you may want to ease off on the "moron" comments... I'm one of those that you're referring to, quite obviously, as I am "preaching" the word that ~450RWHP is about the average limit on a stock shortblock, and I don't have a blower on my car. I've been sniffing around FI for a couple of years, now, and have talked to a LOT of pros about the situation, and they all pretty much agree, that ~450 is the practical limit for survivability statistically. Yes, there are motors that will take 500, or even 600 without blowing up, but there are also motors that let go at 425. It's not luck, it's just a standard deviation curve. You can push all you want, but in the end, speed costs. For the people who DON'T want to push the envelope, ~450 makes a statistically safe target, where the vast majority of the motors will hold up fine. If you push past that on a stock shortblock, the percentage of failures rises, and exponentially so the further you push.

Ford built the motors to survive street use at 300BHP, and NOT race duty at 575BHP. The rods are made of powdered metal, and are approximately the size of a Reach toothbrush. You can throw a lot of boost at them, and by running richer and pulling timing, the motor will survive. Or, you can lean them out a bit and add more timing while dropping the boost, and the motor will survive. Both solutions will get you into the ~450RWHP range. If you build a forged bottom end, you can run closer to the edge, with more boost, more timing, and make a lot more power. Thicker ring lands reduce the incidence of hot-spotting and pre-ignition, stronger rods can take more detonation abuse, and a forged crank is torsionally stronger. This allows for higher mean cylinder pressure prior to failure. On a forged motor, if you push it too far on pump gas, you'll detonate, and if it's bad enough, you'll STILL break parts. So now, you're into race gas. Nice street car, let me just toddle down to the corner gas station and buy some C16. Not going to happen.

Also, please note, that the Whipple "500HP" kit is 500BHP, not RWHP. Once you factor in the drivetrain losses, you're somewhere in the neighborhood or 400-425RWHP. The Whipple tune is known to be conservative. Why? Because they simply don't want customers grenading motors right and left, so the place their peak power (and corresponding cylinder pressure) further down on standard deviation curve, to ensure greater survivability.

I have no problems with boosting a motor, and am weighing the pros and cons myself. Engine failure is NOT on my "con" list, though.

Oh, and as far as the "which oil is best" question? That's a pretty condescending position to take. Why not start an "I'm great!" thread instead...

max2000jp

450whp is the safe limit of these motors on pump gas and intercooled. This is with a GOOD dyno-tune, colder plugs gapped down, and a proper fuel system. Basically, all the correct supporting mods. That’s what the whp that the two biggest tuners in my area are comfortable with. My car is a daily driver and I run a “conservative” tune roughly 95% of the time. It’s got less timing in it and only produces 429whp. With this tune, I have left a little bit more room for safety. Another thing to consider is upkeep! Make sure you change your fuel filter and plugs often. I plan on changing mine every 15K. If you do this and keep an eye on your wideband, you are reducing your risks of windowing the block. This doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but I’ve done everything to try to prevent it.

Torched05stang

Close on the best oil thread...........http://forums.bradbarnett.net/showthread.php?t=73720





Damm,Everyone take a deep breath.............Now relax.......Everyone has seen and heard different things.
AGAIN........THIS WAS FOR REFERENCE ON WHAT COULD HAPPEN. Make sure you research before pressing the envelope so to speak. Someone may try to boost up more and then boom.
Then they ask why did it happen. All I can say is if your not sure on what you can do check with the pros. Like all the manufactures on this site.

hiznherponies

Any motor can be grenaded, especially a FI motor, if given enuf detonation!! Anyone remember when MM&FF blew up The Fridge's motor? How did it happen? One of the FACTORY fuel pump relay's just quit working, so when the truck hit third on a T&T pass, all heck broke loose!! BTW, tuned by JDM. John

Bullitt995

Oh that's nothing. Just ask if it's ok to use 5w30 in a 3V and all hell will break loose. This forum is full of chemical engineers that know every in and out of oil, you have to be extra careful what you say.

65sohc

Is it any mystery why Ford chose the iron truck block for the previous generation Cobra and now for the GT500 and why Saleen limits its production cars to 4.5 psi? Every modern engine has a certain amount of "overengineering" to allow it to live under the most strenuous conditions anticipated. The 4.6 3V comes with 300 bhp and appears to have a margin of safety of about 50%, ie. about 450 bhp. The closer you push it to that limit the less margin for error. If you want more than that you probably need to spend the money and buy a Shelby.

SoundGuyDave

OR spend less money, and install a forged bottom end and an upgraded supercharger with a custom tune.

Bullitt995

Yes because iron blocks are so much stronger. Please explain why the Ford GT has an aluminum block then? The GT shortblock has been pushed to 1400+ rwhp and it only failed at that point because the crank snapped in half. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post.

Stangers

I did read all the posts and responded to it after you mentioned the Saleen and I did say"or getting any S/C".Dont get defensive lol.
End of biatch session .

It's all good Mark and appreciate you bringing it to light.
Back to Topic

-John