2MFF

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wsmatau @ February 12, 2006, 3:19 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
That is only true if you are referring to use on a track. Cross-drilling will help cool the rotor[size=2], but often crack under the high-stress conditions incurred on the track.


Frank
[/b][/quote]

Wrong, they will not help cool the brakes. Especially on a 3500+ lb street car. Turbulent air flow through the vanes has far more of an effet. The holes actually disturb this airflow and reduce the surface area for transferring heat from the caliper/pad [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img]

Check wih the manufacturers

JST4FN

First off I apologize to the guy that started this thread. However since it is still off topic I'm going to defend my brake choice.

Most of the people that have sided against doing brakes use the old "it's for looks, or use money on something else." I think this is ridiculous. You are saying that Ford did a good enough job then why change? Well Ford gave you a vehicle that looks good , correct ? Ford gave you a vehicle that goes faster than the posted speed limit, correct? Ford gave you a vehicle that handles and rides nicely , correct? I'm sure most will agree those three statements so why do you add more horsepower, by new wheels, lower the car down, add new a stereo,etc...... You do it because YOU WANT TO IMPROVE ON THE PACKAGE FORD GAVE YOU, PERIOD. Adding a upgraded brake package to my ride is helping me achieve my goal of building the ultimate all around Mustang. Most of us have added more horsepower to our cars which means it acclerates faster than a stock car so why would you stop it with the same brakes? A post above listed change your tires only. While this may decrease stopping distance it's the total package that counts. If your car used to trap 103 mph in the 1/4 and now traps 130 mph, would you still want the same brakes bringing you to halt? I don't care what tires you have if the brakes suck it ain't stopping, and that works the other way with good brakes and sorry tires. Another thing that gets me is complaining that larger barkes do nothing. If that was the case we'd be running the old lever type brakes, why evolve? Cars had drums front and rear, then disc on the fronts, then disc all around, then larger disc, etc... If you feel brakes aren't important slap some drums on there [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] Seriously guys improving your car in any form or fashion, wether it be speed, handling, braking, looks, stereos etc... is done to improve the car to YOUR taste. If you don't like the brake packages don't buy them, but don't tell someone else it's a waste of money of your opinion. I personally think the factory brakes are good, but considering I'll be in the 700-800 hp range when I'm done I wanted a better brake to whoa that baby down.

Thanks Mike

Oh and I forgot to mention that the rotors are (hope I remember right) 4 lb's lighter each so add that on to less rotating mass for you drag race guys [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JST4FN @ February 12, 2006, 6:28 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
First off I apologize to the guy that started this thread. However since it is still off topic I'm going to defend my brake choice.

Most of the people that have sided against doing brakes use the old "it's for looks, or use money on something else." I think this is ridiculous. You are saying that Ford did a good enough job then why change? Well Ford gave you a vehicle that looks good , correct ? Ford gave you a vehicle that goes faster than the posted speed limit, correct? Ford gave you a vehicle that handles and rides nicely , correct? I'm sure most will agree those three statements so why do you add more horsepower, by new wheels, lower the car down, add new a stereo,etc...... You do it because YOU WANT TO IMPROVE ON THE PACKAGE FORD GAVE YOU, PERIOD. Adding a upgraded brake package to my ride is helping me achieve my goal of building the ultimate all around Mustang. Most of us have added more horsepower to our cars which means it acclerates faster than a stock car so why would you stop it with the same brakes? A post above listed change your tires only. While this may decrease stopping distance it's the total package that counts. If your car used to trap 103 mph in the 1/4 and now traps 130 mph, would you still want the same brakes bringing you to halt? I don't care what tires you have if the brakes suck it ain't stopping, and that works the other way with good brakes and sorry tires. Another thing that gets me is complaining that larger barkes do nothing. If that was the case we'd be running the old lever type brakes, why evolve? Cars had drums front and rear, then disc on the fronts, then disc all around, then larger disc, etc... If you feel brakes aren't important slap some drums on there [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] Seriously guys improving your car in any form or fashion, wether it be speed, handling, braking, looks, stereos etc... is done to improve the car to YOUR taste. If you don't like the brake packages don't buy them, but don't tell someone else it's a waste of money of your opinion. I personally think the factory brakes are good, but considering I'll be in the 700-800 hp range when I'm done I wanted a better brake to whoa that baby down.

Thanks Mike

Oh and I forgot to mention that the rotors are (hope I remember right) 4 lb's lighter each so add that on to less rotating mass for you drag race guys [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

Larger brakes don't necessary mean shorter stopping distances. The OEM brakes are good and even better with the right pads. We have street pads designed for longevity. Performance pads "bite" harder and fight fade. Big brake kits usually are bought to combat brake fade. I think a lot of people need to visit StopTech's FAQ section and read up.

JST4FN

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ February 12, 2006, 9:12 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Larger brakes don't necessary mean shorter stopping distances. The OEM brakes are good and even better with the right pads. We have street pads designed for longevity. Performance pads "bite" harder and fight fade. Big brake kits usually are bought to combat brake fade. I think a lot of people need to visit StopTech's FAQ section and read up.
[/b][/quote]

I think your are still missing my point. I give up [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JST4FN @ February 12, 2006, 10:37 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I think your are still missing my point. I give up [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]

If your point was, it's your car and you can do what you like, I got it. From StopTech's website "A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed."

Kinda like what I said??? Even at a drag strip, you aren't doing multiple stops at high speeds. Open Track events or road racing is where you will see multiple stops at high spees.

Lokius

can we see some shots of the stoptech kit installed thestogeo?

thestoogeo

Everyone has a right to their opinion. I upgraded my brakes because I feel its worth the investment. I drive fast and having the best equipment to get me stopped is worth the money to me. I went with braided brakelines for better feel and cross drilled rotors for more initial bite. When shopping for parts I look for perfomance as well as something that pleases the eyes.

I went with the StopTech kit based on a recommendation of someone that I trust. I enjoy the mountain pass roads here in Colorado and know what it feels like to get the brakes hot as I use them hard on a regular basis. This is the first BBK I have owned and I think that I will get my money's worth out of it. I have also gone with 20in wheels that are alot heavier than the stock, not to mention wider tires for better stopping traction. So to me it's not a waste of money.

Here are some pics. Some people drive hard and some people don't.

Jon

StopTech ST-40 BBK - Cross Drilled Rotors - Low Dust Ceramic Pads

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(thestoogeo @ February 13, 2006, 3:32 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Some people drive hard and some people don't.
[/b][/quote]

You will never drive hard enough on the street to use the potential of those brakes. Anyone thats actually been to a road course knows what I am talking about. I can make an arguement about the OEM brakes with the right pads too.

wsmatau

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2MFF @ February 12, 2006, 6:10 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Wrong, they will not help cool the brakes. Especially on a 3500+ lb street car. Turbulent air flow through the vanes has far more of an effet. The holes actually disturb this airflow and reduce the surface area for transferring heat from the caliper/pad [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/banghead.gif[/img]

Check wih the manufacturers
[/b][/quote]

OK, you don't want to believe me.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nono.gif[/img]

FROM THE STOP-TECH FAQ LIST

Which is better, slotted or drilled rotors?
StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors.

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(thestoogeo @ February 13, 2006, 3:32 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
Some people drive hard and some people don't.[/b][/quote]


You can't be driving too hard.....those wheels are too clean!!! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

That is a nice setup. I wasn't bashing ST, I don't know a lot about them. I have always been a fan of Baers, so I wanted to see if you had compared the two.
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/thumb.gif[/img]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ February 13, 2006, 10:05 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
You will never drive hard enough on the street to use the potential of those brakes. Anyone thats actually been to a road course knows what I am talking about. I can make an arguement about the OEM brakes with the right pads too.
[/b][/quote]


That may be true, but....
1) Go tell that to the guys that are running 500+ hp on the street.
2) Remember that true track cars (FR500C) are lighter, stiffer and have better tires. Just adding the 20" wheels he has DETRACT from stock performance. These brakes undoubtedly help bring him back up where he wants to be.

At least it is a performance oriented mod. Go bash on the guys that are all show and no go (or stop... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img] )!

Lokius

those look great, makes me want to get a set of ford GT wheels and a stoptech 14 inch BBK and hit the track in style [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wsmatau @ February 13, 2006, 11:14 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>

That may be true, but....
1) Go tell that to the guys that are running 500+ hp on the street.
2) Remember that true track cars (FR500C) are lighter, stiffer and have better tires. Just adding the 20" wheels he has DETRACT from stock performance. These brakes undoubtedly help bring him back up where he wants to be.

At least it is a performance oriented mod. Go bash on the guys that are all show and no go (or stop... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/lol.gif[/img] )!
[/b][/quote]

-What pads are they running? Stainless lines? Those are your two first logical upgrades to brakes.
-You are correct. Not sure if he tried the above. There is a lot of show on that car. Niche 20" Chrome wheels(anchors) aren't the best choice for a performance car.

My opinion still stands that BBKs aren't really necessary unless you have ambitions to track the car.

wsmatau

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ February 13, 2006, 12:47 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
-What pads are they running? Stainless lines? Those are your two first logical upgrades to brakes.
-You are correct. Not sure if he tried the above. There is a lot of show on that car. Niche 20" Chrome wheels(anchors) aren't the best choice for a performance car.

My opinion still stands that BBKs aren't really necessary unless you have ambitions to track the car.
[/b][/quote]

110% agreed. I don't know if you read this or not, but all Stop-Tech kits come with stainless lines and upgraded pads. I'm reasonably sure this is a kit and not just components slapped together.
The wheels are counter-performance items, but with BBKs like these maybe we can have the best of both worlds.

And as an aside, I know that upgraded rotors out back may not help the cause, but I'd do it also...just for a more "finished" look.

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wsmatau @ February 13, 2006, 1:21 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
110% agreed. I don't know if you read this or not, but all Stop-Tech kits come with stainless lines and upgraded pads. I'm reasonably sure this is a kit and not just components slapped together.
The wheels are counter-performance items, but with BBKs like these maybe we can have the best of both worlds.

And as an aside, I know that upgraded rotors out back may not help the cause, but I'd do it also...just for a more "finished" look.
[/b][/quote]

I've actually done a lot of research on BBKs. I plan on attending 3-4 open track events this year, hence why I am doing the research. StopTech makes are really nice kit and so does Brembo. Both are pricey though. I plan on first upgrading to Hawk Pads and Russell Stainless lines to see how it works.

So you want upgraded rears for the "bling" [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

wsmatau

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ February 13, 2006, 1:28 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I've actually done a lot of research on BBKs. I plan on attending 3-4 open track events this year, hence why I am doing the research. StopTech makes are really nice kit and so does Brembo. Both are pricey though. I plan on first upgrading to Hawk Pads and Russell Stainless lines to see how it works. [/b][/quote]

Well maybe you can better answer my questions about the Baers vs. the StopTech. I'm an "all or nothing" kinda guy. I tend to do it all at once vs building piece by piece. I'm not saying that is bad. It's definitely easier on the pocketbook and allows you the time to hone your skills until you are ready for the next level.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(max2000jp @ February 13, 2006, 1:28 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
So you want upgraded rears for the "bling" [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]


I guess if you call non-performance oriented mods "bling." I think they give the car a more agressive look, and they certainly don't hurt performance like 22s would. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/icon_mrgreen.gif[/img] Of course, I'm looking at the Shaker hood too. To Bling or not to Bling.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrinjester.gif[/img]

2MFF

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wsmatau @ February 13, 2006, 11:14 AM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
OK, you don't want to believe me.... [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nono.gif[/img]

FROM THE STOP-TECH FAQ LIST

Which is better, slotted or drilled rotors?
StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors.

[/b][/quote]


I don't see where they say it cools the brakes [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dunno.gif[/img] Read ANY technical discussion of brakes and you will see that the drilled holes provide no cooling benefit (Note - there is some cooling around the holes, but it is insignificant in terms of cooling the brakes. However, the cooling around the holes does help to create the cracking of the rotors.

In a big heavy pig of a car you want as much heat transfered to the rotor as quickly as possible so it does not heat soak the pad/caliper/fluid. Reducing the contact surface area for the heat transfer is not a desired method to do this. The vanes cast into the rotor force air in and pump heat out of the rotor. That is where your cooling is.

You are obviously going to do what you want to do, but others may not be aware that crossed drilled rotors are just bling. I'm posting my $0.02 for them, not to sway people who want "the look"

SurfnSoCal

What is the advtange to steel lines?

Would upgraded pads, slotted rotors, and steel lines be a big improvement over stock? Or would it be better to just save and go with a brembo kit?

max2000jp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SurfnSoCal @ February 13, 2006, 4:06 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
What is the advtange to steel lines?

Would upgraded pads, slotted rotors, and steel lines be a big improvement over stock? Or would it be better to just save and go with a brembo kit?
[/b][/quote]

Stainless lines give you better feel and don't flex under extreme conditions. Do a search of Hawk pads, you will find information. They are a big improvement over the OEM pads.

wsmatau

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2MFF @ February 13, 2006, 2:16 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
In a big heavy pig of a car you want as much heat transfered to the rotor as quickly as possible so it does not heat soak the pad/caliper/fluid. Reducing the contact surface area for the heat transfer is not a desired method to do this. The vanes cast into the rotor force air in and pump heat out of the rotor. That is where your cooling is.

You are obviously going to do what you want to do, but others may not be aware that crossed drilled rotors are just bling. I'm posting my $0.02 for them, not to sway people who want "the look"
[/b][/quote]

I really don't think we are that far apart on our opinions, but I want to clarify for anyone that is reading this:

You originall stated your opinion (although it comes across as a statement of fact):
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(2MFF @ February 13, 2006, 2:16 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
And if you put crossed drilled rotors on your car you actually hurt performance. [/b][/quote]

Which is just not true, as proven by my quote from Stop-Tech. You are right about the rotor vanes doing most of the cooling. That was not my point. Cross drilling was originally intended to help dissipate dust/gasses from the pads. Racers often noticed cracking around the holes drilled in the rotors. Then slotting became popular because it has the same effect without weakening the structural integrity of the rotor as much.
Some people like the cross-drilled look, some don't. But I repeatedly see people regurgitating bad information about brake kits because they are comparing track requirements with street kits. Cross drilling is mostly about the looks. It does add benefit to the rotor in a street setting because it does what it is designed to do without impairing the rotors intended design, in a street setting. Cross drilling IS NOT recommended on cars intended for regular track use because the holes tend to cause cracks in the rotor that both impair rotor integrity, and increase pad wear.

nonsensez9

from the Brembo faq

Where can I find test data on stopping distances?
At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire's grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. <span style="color:#3333FF">Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. </span> For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time. <span style="color:#3333FF">The Brembo systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking.</span> The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time.

and from the Baer faq
What are the benefits to cross-drilling, slotting, and zinc-washing my rotors?
<span style="color:#3333FF">In years past,</span> cross-drilling and/or slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as "green pad fade" or "outgassing". When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!

However, with today´s race pad technology, ´outgassing´ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, "dynamic surface treatment", "race ready", and/or, "pre-burnished". When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ´outgassing´. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ´outgassing´, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.

<span style="color:#3333FF">Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, <span style="color:#FF0000">it is primarily a visual enhancement </span> behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.</span>

Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential "stress risers" from which cracks can occur. Baer´s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.


so there you have it from the brake experts themselves. Bigger brakes does not necessarily mean better stopping distances. Cross drilling is bling only.

Anyways, the beauty of owning a car is that you can do anything you want to it. But I believe some of the guys here are simply stating that upgrading the brakes may not yield the desired performance.

wsmatau

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nonsensez9 @ February 13, 2006, 4:27 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
from the Brembo faq

Where can I find test data on stopping distances?
At the speeds that stopping distance is generally measured from (60 to 70mph), the test is primarily testing the tire's grip on the pavement. As delivered from the manufacturer, nearly all vehicles are able to engage the ABS or lock the wheels at these speeds. <span style="color:#3333FF">Therefore, an increase in braking power will do nothing to stop the vehicle in a shorter distance. </span> For this reason, we do not record stopping distances at this time. <span style="color:#3333FF">The Brembo systems will show their greatest advantages when braking from higher speeds, or when tasked with repeated heavy braking.</span> The increased braking torque provides for maximum deceleration at speed, and the ability to absorb and quickly dissipate the intense heat generated during repeated braking insures that the braking system will perform at the same high level each time.

and from the Baer faq
What are the benefits to cross-drilling, slotting, and zinc-washing my rotors?
<span style="color:#3333FF">In years past,</span> cross-drilling and/or slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as "green pad fade" or "outgassing". When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!

However, with today´s race pad technology, ´outgassing´ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, "dynamic surface treatment", "race ready", and/or, "pre-burnished". When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ´outgassing´. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ´outgassing´, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.

<span style="color:#3333FF">Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, <span style="color:#FF0000">it is primarily a visual enhancement </span> behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.</span>

Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential "stress risers" from which cracks can occur. Baer´s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.

[/b][/quote]


[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/headscratch.gif[/img] hey that sounds familiar...Where did I read that? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/idea.gif[/img]