Haven't been around much lately and just going through the ringer with my car. Over a year of building, testing, learning, and downright breaking crap and finally at the end of the road...

My quest started for a 9 sec DD and boy did I bite off more than I thought...lol

In my humble experience, I can tell you now that 80% of the aftermarket world for the S197's are FOS IMO. We read about how Burcham did this, JDM did that, Powerhouse did this, GMS did that, etc, etc... They all want you to belive you can buy their products and have the same results and have your stock motor intact. It's a bunch of BS. The truth is darn near every company out there has a very CUSTOM set-up to get their results and in no way reflects the 'kits' they are selling. The vendors you here about running these awesome ET's and making 550+ rwhp on the stock motor are only one sided and not realistic. You never hear about how many times they broke stuff or rebuilt stuff or how many miles the car is actually driven other than down the track. It is easy when you are a pro shop or company to simply replace and rebuild everytime you break and highlight the fluke accomplishments you make in the process. We consumers don't have that luxury. I have been on forums, at the tracks, and have dealt with a lot of people over the past couple years and have come to a sad realization.

The simple truth is there are maybe a half dozen actual sub 10 S197's and not a single one of them are anything but completely built custom set-ups. Not a sole person is making the 'fast' et's on any standard kit or part, or combination of standard parts out there. Even those guys in the 10's are completely custom and unique shop built cars so if you think you're going to wow the track with any combination of bolt ons - forget it.

I am proud of what ST Motorsports has accomplished for me but it took heck to get there. 2 rebuilt motors, a vortech, a PH turbo kit, a POS set of JDM heads, countless tranny issues, and custom N20 set-up. All have been scrapped in search of the 'best' combination. I have lot's of cosmetic mods and my beast ways in at a whopping 4K pounds with me in it. I have no weight shaving mods at all and full interior/air with factory seats & glass. I had taken the vortech as far as it could go (the 18 psi range) and couldn't keep a belt/tensioner on the car to save my life at those levels. The PH turbo kit was nice as is but ran out of gas at 16 psi and wasn't effeicent at all for anything over 600 rwhp. I switched to a 76mm version of the PH kit and found it was set-up poorly. It had the trim size suitable for a big block and took literally forever to spool and drove intake temps through the roof. My trans temps went ridiculous cause I had to stand on the brake for 6 seconds to build boost.

After getting some turbo experts invloved, I was able to piece together a great 76mm system using turbonetics and precision parts and get the 'best of both worlds'. The turbo now has the full power of the 76mm but spools like a 62mm instantly by 2800 rpm. The Art Carr 4 speed AOD was a joke for the S197 and every single person who bought one had to have them rebuilt elsewhere which equated to a lot of down time and money for everyone who had one. After dialing in a great TC and rebuilding the trans, it finally came together to work as a perfect street/strip car as I have all the love of a C4 with that wonderful OD on the freeway. With all the benefits of the C4, I can still cruise at 80 at 3000 rpm with 4.10 gears on a monster. Try that on a C4, but the cost was high as it took literally months to get it to work right. After getting ripped off by JDM Engineering and darn near coming to blows with ST Motorsports, I was tempted many times to throw in the towel. I have to thank Adam at ST Motorsports sincerely. Since he has been the builder of my car, it was him who received the brunt of my frustration and anger whenever there was a problem and I have had MANY problems, so you can imagine how much crap he has put up with from me. Despite this, he never turned me away, and always went above and beyond on my car even when I might not have deserved it. For this, I am forever thankful to ST Motorsports.

I am not going to waste bandwidth with dyno numbers or bench racing. I'll be at LACR next wednesday and Irwindale next thrusday and I'll post some vids to speak for themselves. ST has worked very hard to accomplish my ridiculous goal which is to be able to hang with the big boys in a REAL DD. This car is an honest and true DD weighing 4K pounds and should hang with the fastest out there who have nothing but trailored shop cars. I've always wanted from the beginning to show what an average joe like me could do without a big shop backing them and I'm finally there but just wanted to keep it real with everyone and say that in the long run, IT IS NOT WORTH IT. Unless you have a big shop backing you and footing the bill, be VERY SATISFIED with your car if you can get her into the 11's realiably.

We all know how addicting the mod bug is once it bites you and I strongly encourage all from my failures to set a definitve goal and STICK TO IT. It is very difficult to do and I know but it will save you tons in the end. We all 'always want to go faster' but if you set a reasonable goal and stick to it, and stay there when you hit it, you'll be much happier in the long run IMO.

Good luck to all in your quest and mission to make your stang something beyond what's on every lot in america, and koodos to all pushing the envelope and keeping things real for us. The mustang community is a bizarre and wonderful mix of gearheads sharing a unique bond and thirst for knowledge. I do not know if it's loyalty is matched with any other make of vehicle.

In closing, I just want to say there are some REALLY GOOD vendors out there too and though they are few and far between IMO, they make this whole community worth while.

Peace!!

 

Great write up Mark! This should be required reading for every performance mod junkie!........

 

Hey Mark could you post up some pics of your car exterior and under the hood. I'd love to see what that beast looks like. Sorry to hear about your troubles but congrats on the outcome. Look forward to seeing videos.

 

**** good write up. Sounds like you've been to hell and back. I can only imagine the stories. But hey, that's what makes this **** so fun, right!?.... right? I think? Darn cars and women!

CR
Tillman Speed

 

you must have a ton of cash in that car. Can't wait to see the vids

 

Irwindale next thursday...I'll see you there.

Nice writeup, BTW. I guess I have to call ST motorsports. I can't find another installer, that I like.

 

From the short conversation I had with Adam at ST motorsports, you can really tell he is completely passionate about his work and truly loves being around these cars. If I were closer to his shop I would definitely take my car there. I have never heard anything but praise about him and his work.

 

I'll be taking vids and pics at LACR and Irwindale next week and going to post everything. The car is set for the 1/8 right now with 4.10 gears, so I'll only be running to the 1000' at LACR while we tune and dial it in. My true 1/4 times are going to have to wait till next month at fontanna on 3.55's.

I'm expecting mid 6's at Irwindale thursday on 16 psi. I'm sticking there for a bit but the turbo should run best in the 22-26 psi range.

After all said and done, I really wish I would have started with a mid 11 sec realiable DD goal and stuck to it.

 

Mark,

I'm thrilled to hear that there is light at the end of the tunnel for you, my friend. It's been a long time coming.

I remember when you and I were sitting around last spring/summer chomping at the bit while we were waiting on both of our cars. Our goals were different, and I was extremely happy when I not only reached my goal, but exceeded it (an 11-sec daily driver). Now it's your turn. I can't wait to see it run in person.

Next weekend, Barona is running on Sat & Sun (3/17-3/18)... maybe you can make it down to SD???

And of course... major props to Adam, John and Scott of ST Motorsports!!

 

Good advise!
I'll stick to my paultry goal of 350 rwhp while N/A.
Especially since my Stang doubles as the wife's grocery git'er half the time.
She won't need to know about the N2O!!

 

Thanks Don. You are one of the main reasons I have ever been on any forum. It has been my sincere pleasure to know you and Donna.

 

To keep it real -

I ran 526 rwhp on race gas and 476 rwhp on pump gas on the stock motor for over a year and 10K miles without a single issue. In fact, the car ran most reliable on the stock motor at those levels than anything else.

The secret is having a good tuner work on your car. With a good tune, 450ish is very doable as a reliable car on the stock motor. Sure guys have blown with barely 400 rwhp, but it has been 90% of the time a tune issue. Some tuners make the mistake of forgetting about the IAT curves when they add timing. They keep adding timing and forget about the compensation for the inital blast of IAT and end up giving the car 20+ degrees when they are trying to give it 14º. This isn't the sole reason of course, just a common one I have seen/heard over the years.

I honestly believe a rebuilt motor is oversold and over rated by vendors trying to get your money. The people who are telling you "all you need is a forged rotating assembly" are BS'n you. I garuntee you the guys with a rebuild running fast have also had to get into the tranny and rear end, fuel sytstem, etc, etc.

Once you get that rebuild, then you get the old, "well the clutch, trans, ect, etc is not going to hold so we have to get in there. Maybe a 6 speed or rebuild the auto..." Then you'll get the old, "well the stock axels are pretty strong but we need SFI approved aftermarket for tech and while we're in there - we're going to need to replace the differential with a tru trac or spool and get a girdle. Maybe put in some 9" housing ends, etc, etc"

Let's not forget now we have cooling issues so we need to look at the trans pan and larger rad for support, etc, etc, etc...

The moral is a simple forged rotating assembly as all you need to turn your FI kit up is BS. It will require much more than that and the $$$ are going to be considerable more than just a built shortblock. They all know this going in but know they have you hooked once you get the motor rebuilt. You are now invested and have to make the investment on everything else.

A Rebuilt motor is a waste of money IMO unless you plan on getting VERY serious. A good tuner, suspension & fuel mods and rubber with your FI kit should be all you need to have a nice reliable ride that can hit 11's. The rebuilt motor is the golden trap to suck you in deep. Most everyone never think about the 'OTHER' stuff that follows a rebuild that is more costly in the long run than the rebuild itself. My advice to 95% of guys is to stay away from a rebuild and focus on getting a good shop/tuner to get your car in the 11's with bolt ons reliably. You will be very happy with a FAST car that is still a great street car.

 

I do not agree with you about the short block. You were extremely lucky not to damage the stock lower and you know it!
Telling these guys to crank it up on a stock bottom is some what irresponsible but then if it blows up its not money out of your pocket. RIGHT?? In mine the bottom goes in before the top goes on. I call it insurance. I know one can sink 16K in one of these cars faster than a speeding bullet.

 

What kind of HP levels did you see the certain stuff failing? I'm really interested when the trans, rear end, and the cooling system were giving you problems. You really don't hear about that stuff.

 

I had similar experiences with my old SN95. I didn't have a set goal, so I kept going, and going...I went through N20 levels, supercharger levels (3 different sized Vortechs), 3 motors (incompetent tuners), etc, etc. After stepping it up on one component, I was also told (and partially forced by NHRA rules) I needed to upgrade other components. In the end, I spent $100k, got the car into the 8's, but was forced to sell it for $20k.

With this car, I've set a self imposed limit of one performance mod, and/or one visual mod per month. Now I have something to look forward to on the 25th of each month, and I'm not getting out of hand with my spending.

My S197 Plans?

Suspension Performance: Roush Suspension Kit (Piece by piece):

Engine Performance: So far I surprisingly have been content with my BamaChips/C&L CAI combo. Future plans call for either a GT500 full motor swap, or a NA 400 HP bolt-on set up.

1320 Track Goal: Mid to low 11 second capable. Not currently into twisties, but that may change after the Roush kit install.

Appearance Modifications: Roush Body Kit (Also piece by piece), new wheels, cheap minor visual improvements.

Hopefully your thread will help lead people in the right direction. I know it helped bring the issue to the front of my mind again, and for that I say THANKS!

 

I'm not reading Mark's statements the same way you are, I guess. He specifically says: "The secret is having a good tuner work on your car. With a good tune, 450ish is very doable as a reliable car on the stock motor." Nothing wrong with that. He also says: "A good tuner, suspension & fuel mods and rubber with your FI kit should be all you need to have a nice reliable ride that can hit 11's." Again... what's wrong there? Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where he said to "crank it up on a stock bottom".

 

im in the 11's with KB's stock tune haha very reliable. been over a year and no issues

 

One of dozens of examples!!

 

WERD....

My goal is to have something I can drive to/from work and drive on the track without having to change anything, except maybe a tune.

Some creature comforts, a little show and a little go.

Not looking for low et's on the 1/4 or the fastest lap times on the road coarses...

So far I think i've stuck to my goal.

Some parts at this point will just be replacing parts that I want to change out or things that end up breaking.

 

I don't see anything at all like that in the post, either. He's completely right though, with the right tune 450 is very practical on stock internals.

A conservative tune, starting with a base and trial and error testing on a dyno is the best way to go. Once you hammer out the fuel and spark curve, you can keep an eye on engine load, and know that you're still within reasonable specs for wear and tear.

Alot of guys just load a tune that will extract the most power out of the charger without concern for anything but knocking. It's not knocking, she's PERFECT!

CR
Tillman Speed