I beat a BMW 300 series :)
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 3,581
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Originally Posted by BC_Shelby
Because I don't believe that the Stang is "slower and less powered." Remember that the FR500 car makes up for the SRA with an extensive array of other upgrades.
The IRS is thus not terribly advantageous on a road course with perfectly smooth pavement. Now, get on a public roadway and hit a bump...in a corner...at high speed, and you will quickly see the drawbacks of SRA.
In a straight line...on even pavement, IRS has little real world benefits over SRA. Unfortunately, straight lines on even pavement aren't terribly representative of the "real world."
The IRS is thus not terribly advantageous on a road course with perfectly smooth pavement. Now, get on a public roadway and hit a bump...in a corner...at high speed, and you will quickly see the drawbacks of SRA.
In a straight line...on even pavement, IRS has little real world benefits over SRA. Unfortunately, straight lines on even pavement aren't terribly representative of the "real world."
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Originally Posted by rrobello
I prefer the SRA so it can handle more torque without wheel hop, or even breaking the axle.
Of course, the other advantage of IRS is that it provides a smoother, more comfortable ride.
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by BC_Shelby
I think if Ford had chosen to put a proper IRS in the new Mustang, you might actually have a contest there. Even despite that, don't forget about the recent Grand Am series where the new Stang handily dispatched M3s.
I know that the Mustang won the Grand Am series and it's still something that puzzles me to the highest level. I honestly can't find any explanation to that and I am still persuaded that a good IRS ought to beat any day a good SRA in any roadcourse/circuit...
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by rrobello
yes the M3 would be the car BMW would compare to the Mustang GT, but I was pointing out that in all of our previous post not only were we not talking about the M3, but we also werent comparing any of the 3 Series to Mustangs, we were comparing them to other cars in its class.
I agree that straight line acceleration isnt the only thing that makes a car a good car. But you are talking about taking it to a track of which case IMO all bets are off, because now you are doing something completely different then street driving, so no need to compare street cars there, if I were gonna keep taking my car to a track, not only would I consider a different car, but it would also be heavily modified. As for street driving a daily driver I do think it is fair to say that majority of people do not push their car to the limits on public roads going through turns as they race other cars, whereas they are indeed more inclined to drag in a straight line. So for the purposes of comparing two cars that are going up against each other on a normal, public road I would say straight line acceleration is more important; I think this is why manufactuers are now more than ever focusing on how fast a car can do 0-60 and 0-100 in their advertising. This comparison of straight line acceleration does not (like you said) make a car the best car, but I do believe that for real world applications it is a comparison that might be weighed more heavily (assuming most people dont track their cars to race others). Does this make sense as to what I am trying to say here? Would you agree? (Grant it I have never driven in Europe so I do not know if their are more windy roads then there are straight roads [not including actual turns at intersections], nor do I know if people actually race through these windy public roads; I am assuming for the most part they do not)
I also wouldnt go so far to say that their is much less skill in racing in a straight line then there is around a road course, just different types of skills. Have you ever tried to keep a 1200+HP car straight as you launch down a 1/4mile strip of road in less then 6 seconds? I think this would be just as hard if not harder to do then driving through turns at speeds averaging between 80-130 mph; now I would imagine that it would be the same degree of difficulty as driving a formula car in speeds in excess of 200mph around a track, just different kind of difficulty, but this is just my opinion.
As for your doubts as to the possibilty of making a Stang outhandle a M3, it has happened many times. What my point was that the difference in price of an M3 and a mustang GT is about $20k, if not more; now you are telling me that with $20k you cant think of a way to make the GT outhandle an M3? Yes it is now a modded car compared to a stock one, but my point was for much less then the base price of a M3 you can make the GT better. Heck there is a guy in my club out here with a SN95 V6 that can outhandle a M3 any day of the week on any track, and that was all done for much less then the cost of a new GT. And while I have never owned an M3 I have driven several including a couple Dinans. I do agree if you were to go stock for stock Id take the M3 on a road course as well, its just too bad the M3 doesnt cost $27k.
May I ask as to why you bought a new GT instead of going with another M3?
I agree that straight line acceleration isnt the only thing that makes a car a good car. But you are talking about taking it to a track of which case IMO all bets are off, because now you are doing something completely different then street driving, so no need to compare street cars there, if I were gonna keep taking my car to a track, not only would I consider a different car, but it would also be heavily modified. As for street driving a daily driver I do think it is fair to say that majority of people do not push their car to the limits on public roads going through turns as they race other cars, whereas they are indeed more inclined to drag in a straight line. So for the purposes of comparing two cars that are going up against each other on a normal, public road I would say straight line acceleration is more important; I think this is why manufactuers are now more than ever focusing on how fast a car can do 0-60 and 0-100 in their advertising. This comparison of straight line acceleration does not (like you said) make a car the best car, but I do believe that for real world applications it is a comparison that might be weighed more heavily (assuming most people dont track their cars to race others). Does this make sense as to what I am trying to say here? Would you agree? (Grant it I have never driven in Europe so I do not know if their are more windy roads then there are straight roads [not including actual turns at intersections], nor do I know if people actually race through these windy public roads; I am assuming for the most part they do not)
I also wouldnt go so far to say that their is much less skill in racing in a straight line then there is around a road course, just different types of skills. Have you ever tried to keep a 1200+HP car straight as you launch down a 1/4mile strip of road in less then 6 seconds? I think this would be just as hard if not harder to do then driving through turns at speeds averaging between 80-130 mph; now I would imagine that it would be the same degree of difficulty as driving a formula car in speeds in excess of 200mph around a track, just different kind of difficulty, but this is just my opinion.
As for your doubts as to the possibilty of making a Stang outhandle a M3, it has happened many times. What my point was that the difference in price of an M3 and a mustang GT is about $20k, if not more; now you are telling me that with $20k you cant think of a way to make the GT outhandle an M3? Yes it is now a modded car compared to a stock one, but my point was for much less then the base price of a M3 you can make the GT better. Heck there is a guy in my club out here with a SN95 V6 that can outhandle a M3 any day of the week on any track, and that was all done for much less then the cost of a new GT. And while I have never owned an M3 I have driven several including a couple Dinans. I do agree if you were to go stock for stock Id take the M3 on a road course as well, its just too bad the M3 doesnt cost $27k.
May I ask as to why you bought a new GT instead of going with another M3?
Perhaps my english isn't quite up to par with what I'd like to say, but when I was talking about handling, I meant mostly on regular streets (because racing is so darn expensive. I once entertained the idea of entering the Renault Clio Cup, for the regional championship in Switzerland. But the minimal budget for a year was around 100k and honestly it was a bit too much for me.). You see, there in Europe you definitely have a lot more turns than in the USA (excepted of course for highways: on those you don't have turns in Europe either. Or at least turns that are quite serious, if you know what I mean) and in general a young guy gets a kick out of being able to go from point A to point B on a twisty road like a bat out of hell (normally they do it quite late at night, so that there is very little, if none, traffic). Sure they love straight line acceleration as well, but normally it's something done for your own enjoyment, to feel the power of your car push you in the seat, not to go head to head with someone else.
Instead, if someone wants to do a bit of road racing (which is very illegal over there too), generally it's done on twisties. It's much more dangerous indeed, but very gratifying.
Yes, I see your point when you say that 0-60 / 0-100 is the main focus as far as selling performance is concerned around here. It's just that in Europe, it's only one point: over there the average buyer of sport/sporty cars looks for acceleration AND handling (and in a minor way, the weight of the vehicle is important. Lightweight is very much...fashionable). I guess it's a product of the environment in Europe, with so many roads that have turns.
Yes, I agree that at the utmost level of any motor racing competition, including drag racing, you definitely need to have skills that are much, much more than what the average driver has.
But still, I don't believe that drag racing is on top of the hill as far as skills required. Formula 1 for example is the pinnacle of circuit racing, IMHO, driving those cars is basically being on the seat of jet fighter...but on the ground.
But still, in my opinion it's not the motor sport that requires the highest level of skills as I believe that is Rally racing.
If you see some in-car video of the top Rally drivers going for example on a twisty road, gravel road actually, large enough for your car to pass (with perhaps a foot on each side of the vehicle), with large trees on every side (for example in Finland, in the 1000 lakes Rally) and at the same time doing 140 mph, if the hair on your neck doesn't stand straight up, you must check your pulse !
Yes, the price advantage of the Mustang GT over an M3 is absolutely enormous indeed, leaving space for savings that can go into modding the GT into a total beast. As I said, an M3 (at least for a European) wins over a Mustang because of its name (=prestige), refined materials and very impressive technology (let's not forget that the M3 6cyl. 3200 cc S54 engine won 5 years in a row the title of engine of the year).
Now if this warrants a huge price difference, I believe it honestly depends on the feeling a possible buyer of this vehicle has (and still in the USA prices are so low. An M3 costs here 46k...in Switzerland I got mine for Sfr. 95,000...or roughly $77k...).
I bought the GT for three reasons:
1) I had just bought a house...and if you think at the current real estate prices (well, in 2003 really...), you may imagine the amount of money that had to go into that...Not leaving out much for fun, unfortunately.
2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !
3) When I was finally able to have some decent savings that could have allowed me to buy an M3, word was out that the new one, with a 4 Liter V8 would be coming out in 2007 and with that news, I told myself it was better to wait and see, rather than go and buy the old one. Not to mention that I absolutely fell in love with the Mustang...this was another factor pushing the M3 a bit more far away from my heart...
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 3,581
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Originally Posted by Legion681
I agree with you. My only complaint about my GT is that I wish it had IRS...
I know that the Mustang won the Grand Am series and it's still something that puzzles me to the highest level. I honestly can't find any explanation to that and I am still persuaded that a good IRS ought to beat any day a good SRA in any roadcourse/circuit...
I know that the Mustang won the Grand Am series and it's still something that puzzles me to the highest level. I honestly can't find any explanation to that and I am still persuaded that a good IRS ought to beat any day a good SRA in any roadcourse/circuit...
oh and dont forget Drifting, somehow that SRA managed to take over and dominate a sport that was going on for 20 years in Japan before we even tried it once. Not too shaby for a sport that is all about controlling your car through turns huh?
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Again, a modern, properly tuned SRA will have no perceptible disadvantage on a roadcourse, provided that roadcourse is smooth, as most tracks here in North America are.
On the other hand, hit a bump in the apex of a turn - in the real world - and the IRS car will be far easier to control (not to mention be safer).
On the other hand, hit a bump in the apex of a turn - in the real world - and the IRS car will be far easier to control (not to mention be safer).
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Originally Posted by Legion681
I bought the GT for three reasons:
1) I had just bought a house...and if you think at the current real estate prices (well, in 2003 really...), you may imagine the amount of money that had to go into that...Not leaving out much for fun, unfortunately.
2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !
3) When I was finally able to have some decent savings that could have allowed me to buy an M3, word was out that the new one, with a 4 Liter V8 would be coming out in 2007 and with that news, I told myself it was better to wait and see, rather than go and buy the old one. Not to mention that I absolutely fell in love with the Mustang...this was another factor pushing the M3 a bit more far away from my heart...
1) I had just bought a house...and if you think at the current real estate prices (well, in 2003 really...), you may imagine the amount of money that had to go into that...Not leaving out much for fun, unfortunately.
2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !
3) When I was finally able to have some decent savings that could have allowed me to buy an M3, word was out that the new one, with a 4 Liter V8 would be coming out in 2007 and with that news, I told myself it was better to wait and see, rather than go and buy the old one. Not to mention that I absolutely fell in love with the Mustang...this was another factor pushing the M3 a bit more far away from my heart...
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 3,581
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Legion681
rrobello, first of all let me tell you that I appreciate your post and this dialogue with you is very interesting. Thanks for that.
Perhaps my english isn't quite up to par with what I'd like to say, but when I was talking about handling, I meant mostly on regular streets (because racing is so darn expensive. I once entertained the idea of entering the Renault Clio Cup, for the regional championship in Switzerland. But the minimal budget for a year was around 100k and honestly it was a bit too much for me.). You see, there in Europe you definitely have a lot more turns than in the USA (excepted of course for highways: on those you don't have turns in Europe either. Or at least turns that are quite serious, if you know what I mean) and in general a young guy gets a kick out of being able to go from point A to point B on a twisty road like a bat out of hell (normally they do it quite late at night, so that there is very little, if none, traffic). Sure they love straight line acceleration as well, but normally it's something done for your own enjoyment, to feel the power of your car push you in the seat, not to go head to head with someone else.
Instead, if someone wants to do a bit of road racing (which is very illegal over there too), generally it's done on twisties. It's much more dangerous indeed, but very gratifying.
Yes, I see your point when you say that 0-60 / 0-100 is the main focus as far as selling performance is concerned around here. It's just that in Europe, it's only one point: over there the average buyer of sport/sporty cars looks for acceleration AND handling (and in a minor way, the weight of the vehicle is important. Lightweight is very much...fashionable). I guess it's a product of the environment in Europe, with so many roads that have turns.
Yes, I agree that at the utmost level of any motor racing competition, including drag racing, you definitely need to have skills that are much, much more than what the average driver has.
But still, I don't believe that drag racing is on top of the hill as far as skills required. Formula 1 for example is the pinnacle of circuit racing, IMHO, driving those cars is basically being on the seat of jet fighter...but on the ground.
But still, in my opinion it's not the motor sport that requires the highest level of skills as I believe that is Rally racing.
If you see some in-car video of the top Rally drivers going for example on a twisty road, gravel road actually, large enough for your car to pass (with perhaps a foot on each side of the vehicle), with large trees on every side (for example in Finland, in the 1000 lakes Rally) and at the same time doing 140 mph, if the hair on your neck doesn't stand straight up, you must check your pulse !
Yes, the price advantage of the Mustang GT over an M3 is absolutely enormous indeed, leaving space for savings that can go into modding the GT into a total beast. As I said, an M3 (at least for a European) wins over a Mustang because of its name (=prestige), refined materials and very impressive technology (let's not forget that the M3 6cyl. 3200 cc S54 engine won 5 years in a row the title of engine of the year).
Now if this warrants a huge price difference, I believe it honestly depends on the feeling a possible buyer of this vehicle has (and still in the USA prices are so low. An M3 costs here 46k...in Switzerland I got mine for Sfr. 95,000...or roughly $77k...).
I bought the GT for three reasons:
1) I had just bought a house...and if you think at the current real estate prices (well, in 2003 really...), you may imagine the amount of money that had to go into that...Not leaving out much for fun, unfortunately.
2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !
3) When I was finally able to have some decent savings that could have allowed me to buy an M3, word was out that the new one, with a 4 Liter V8 would be coming out in 2007 and with that news, I told myself it was better to wait and see, rather than go and buy the old one. Not to mention that I absolutely fell in love with the Mustang...this was another factor pushing the M3 a bit more far away from my heart...
Perhaps my english isn't quite up to par with what I'd like to say, but when I was talking about handling, I meant mostly on regular streets (because racing is so darn expensive. I once entertained the idea of entering the Renault Clio Cup, for the regional championship in Switzerland. But the minimal budget for a year was around 100k and honestly it was a bit too much for me.). You see, there in Europe you definitely have a lot more turns than in the USA (excepted of course for highways: on those you don't have turns in Europe either. Or at least turns that are quite serious, if you know what I mean) and in general a young guy gets a kick out of being able to go from point A to point B on a twisty road like a bat out of hell (normally they do it quite late at night, so that there is very little, if none, traffic). Sure they love straight line acceleration as well, but normally it's something done for your own enjoyment, to feel the power of your car push you in the seat, not to go head to head with someone else.
Instead, if someone wants to do a bit of road racing (which is very illegal over there too), generally it's done on twisties. It's much more dangerous indeed, but very gratifying.
Yes, I see your point when you say that 0-60 / 0-100 is the main focus as far as selling performance is concerned around here. It's just that in Europe, it's only one point: over there the average buyer of sport/sporty cars looks for acceleration AND handling (and in a minor way, the weight of the vehicle is important. Lightweight is very much...fashionable). I guess it's a product of the environment in Europe, with so many roads that have turns.
Yes, I agree that at the utmost level of any motor racing competition, including drag racing, you definitely need to have skills that are much, much more than what the average driver has.
But still, I don't believe that drag racing is on top of the hill as far as skills required. Formula 1 for example is the pinnacle of circuit racing, IMHO, driving those cars is basically being on the seat of jet fighter...but on the ground.
But still, in my opinion it's not the motor sport that requires the highest level of skills as I believe that is Rally racing.
If you see some in-car video of the top Rally drivers going for example on a twisty road, gravel road actually, large enough for your car to pass (with perhaps a foot on each side of the vehicle), with large trees on every side (for example in Finland, in the 1000 lakes Rally) and at the same time doing 140 mph, if the hair on your neck doesn't stand straight up, you must check your pulse !
Yes, the price advantage of the Mustang GT over an M3 is absolutely enormous indeed, leaving space for savings that can go into modding the GT into a total beast. As I said, an M3 (at least for a European) wins over a Mustang because of its name (=prestige), refined materials and very impressive technology (let's not forget that the M3 6cyl. 3200 cc S54 engine won 5 years in a row the title of engine of the year).
Now if this warrants a huge price difference, I believe it honestly depends on the feeling a possible buyer of this vehicle has (and still in the USA prices are so low. An M3 costs here 46k...in Switzerland I got mine for Sfr. 95,000...or roughly $77k...).
I bought the GT for three reasons:
1) I had just bought a house...and if you think at the current real estate prices (well, in 2003 really...), you may imagine the amount of money that had to go into that...Not leaving out much for fun, unfortunately.
2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !
3) When I was finally able to have some decent savings that could have allowed me to buy an M3, word was out that the new one, with a 4 Liter V8 would be coming out in 2007 and with that news, I told myself it was better to wait and see, rather than go and buy the old one. Not to mention that I absolutely fell in love with the Mustang...this was another factor pushing the M3 a bit more far away from my heart...
And your english is fine, I understood what you were saying 100%, I just wanted to make sure you understood my standpoint being an American car in America, I think it just makes more sense for us. I have been wanting to go to Europe to drive for a while now, I think it would be fun and I totally see how the availability of more windy roads would exist over there. However I would do so by myself like I sometimes do here in Rancho Sante Fe instead of racing against someone and I would hope most people there do to, just because too many of the "stupidity" factors come into play. It would be fun to go at it and get on her through turns with no one else on the road, but racing someone seems a bit too risky off a track, but I dont know how people are in Europe, they might very well do that all the time. But I hope you can see where I was going with my arguement that as far as racing someone else goes the straight line makes more sense, or at least here in the US.
While I was writing my post that you responded to, I was actually thinking to myself about how there must be much more windy country roads in Europe that are seldom traveled and how much of a blast that would be, so I was actually wondering if it was just an American thing to not go racing others through these roads and if the Europeans did it all the time. It seems so out of the norm to me, but since I do not know I could not rule out the possibilty. Thank you for your input.
Oh and this last bit....
"2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !"
I think thats what makes the American Muscle cars so great and always worth the price no matter what. I dont see many people getting this same feeling or passion over too many foreign cars. Ive never been so excited to own or drive a car as I am with my stangs and I have driven exotics, its just a feeling that I cant describe or even know what it is that goes well beyond the thrill of going fast. Maybe its the history and pride, I dont know, but then how would one explain someone like yourself who didnt grow up here also experiencing this same feeling?
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by rrobello
well apparently not, we Americans always hold back our good tricks and have something up our sleeves....lol
oh and dont forget Drifting, somehow that SRA managed to take over and dominate a sport that was going on for 20 years in Japan before we even tried it once. Not too shaby for a sport that is all about controlling your car through turns huh?
oh and dont forget Drifting, somehow that SRA managed to take over and dominate a sport that was going on for 20 years in Japan before we even tried it once. Not too shaby for a sport that is all about controlling your car through turns huh?
Ehehehe...well I gotta give you that...in that Mustang victory in the SCCA series, there's gotta be some magic involved...
Drifting is interesting...but the real drifters in my mind, are still rally drivers. The whole concept in rally driving is to keep your car in a state of controlled drift (a sort of pendulum effect), all the time...they have been at it for decades now...
I think our Asian friends just imported that to a circuit/roadcourse...
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by BC_Shelby
I'd honestly be interested in hearing what you LIKE about your Mustang, and where you think it may surpass the M3, if at all. And I don't just mean in the "bang for buck" contest.
- looks (as I said I always dreamt of owning a muscle car, or the closest thing to it, since I can remember...I guess you can blame it on those movies like Bullitt, Vanishing Point, Gone in 60 Seconds (the original), etc. etc.)
- the engine. Forgive me but in Europe a V8 is not a common sight and seen that I owned all sorts of cars (till now: ranging from 1.5L to 4.6L, from 90 hp to 343 hp, with and without turbos, with engines with 2, 3 and 4 valves per cylinder, 4, 6 and 8 cylinders, fwd, rwd and 4wd, coupes and sedans, from very tiny to relatively large, of many brands, including a Seat, a Spanish manufacturer), I yearned for buying a good old Detroit V8 that sounded like a muscle car, at least once in my life. Next project: owning a Ferrari F430...that'll take much much longer, I think...eheheh
- the interior (probably the only one that likes it, everybody seems to criticize it...), because it looks like the old ones (I guess it must be clear I love muscle cars of the old times, right ?
)- the bang per buck ratio
What I don't like:
- SRA instead of IRS...I would have REALLY loved an IRS...much more peace of mind, especially knowing that I live in the Pothole/rough roads state, a.k.a. Massachusetts...
In all honesty, I don't think it surpasses the M3 in any aspect (excepted for the bang for bucks, of course).
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by rrobello
I totally agree with you and also have enjoyed our civil exchange of dialogue, its rare online.
And your english is fine, I understood what you were saying 100%, I just wanted to make sure you understood my standpoint being an American car in America, I think it just makes more sense for us. I have been wanting to go to Europe to drive for a while now, I think it would be fun and I totally see how the availability of more windy roads would exist over there. However I would do so by myself like I sometimes do here in Rancho Sante Fe instead of racing against someone and I would hope most people there do to, just because too many of the "stupidity" factors come into play. It would be fun to go at it and get on her through turns with no one else on the road, but racing someone seems a bit too risky off a track, but I dont know how people are in Europe, they might very well do that all the time. But I hope you can see where I was going with my arguement that as far as racing someone else goes the straight line makes more sense, or at least here in the US.
While I was writing my post that you responded to, I was actually thinking to myself about how there must be much more windy country roads in Europe that are seldom traveled and how much of a blast that would be, so I was actually wondering if it was just an American thing to not go racing others through these roads and if the Europeans did it all the time. It seems so out of the norm to me, but since I do not know I could not rule out the possibilty. Thank you for your input.
Oh and this last bit....
"2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !"
I think thats what makes the American Muscle cars so great and always worth the price no matter what. I dont see many people getting this same feeling or passion over too many foreign cars. Ive never been so excited to own or drive a car as I am with my stangs and I have driven exotics, its just a feeling that I cant describe or even know what it is that goes well beyond the thrill of going fast. Maybe its the history and pride, I dont know, but then how would one explain someone like yourself who didnt grow up here also experiencing this same feeling?
And your english is fine, I understood what you were saying 100%, I just wanted to make sure you understood my standpoint being an American car in America, I think it just makes more sense for us. I have been wanting to go to Europe to drive for a while now, I think it would be fun and I totally see how the availability of more windy roads would exist over there. However I would do so by myself like I sometimes do here in Rancho Sante Fe instead of racing against someone and I would hope most people there do to, just because too many of the "stupidity" factors come into play. It would be fun to go at it and get on her through turns with no one else on the road, but racing someone seems a bit too risky off a track, but I dont know how people are in Europe, they might very well do that all the time. But I hope you can see where I was going with my arguement that as far as racing someone else goes the straight line makes more sense, or at least here in the US.
While I was writing my post that you responded to, I was actually thinking to myself about how there must be much more windy country roads in Europe that are seldom traveled and how much of a blast that would be, so I was actually wondering if it was just an American thing to not go racing others through these roads and if the Europeans did it all the time. It seems so out of the norm to me, but since I do not know I could not rule out the possibilty. Thank you for your input.
Oh and this last bit....
"2) I am European, but since I was a kid I always longed to have a muscle car...I always admired those from the mid60s to the early 70s, but seen that you couldn't get them in my country, it always remained a dream until I moved to the USA. You may imagine my face when I saw the first pics of the new Mustang...I felt in heaven and I swore I'd buy one and let me tell you, to get mine in Jan. 05, I drove to a dealership in the middle of a Noreastern storm (I had been looking for a month for a GT like I wanted...in different states...all I found had a mark up...it took me quite a while before I found one at MSRP and I immediately bought it) !"
I think thats what makes the American Muscle cars so great and always worth the price no matter what. I dont see many people getting this same feeling or passion over too many foreign cars. Ive never been so excited to own or drive a car as I am with my stangs and I have driven exotics, its just a feeling that I cant describe or even know what it is that goes well beyond the thrill of going fast. Maybe its the history and pride, I dont know, but then how would one explain someone like yourself who didnt grow up here also experiencing this same feeling?
Well, rrobello, let me tell you that if you go to Europe and decide to have a bit of fun on a twisty road, you gotta keep in mind two things, if you don't mind me giving you a bit of advice: 1) police does not appreciate it, so watch out for them 2) try to find a road that is not a main road. There you can find plenty of secondary roads that have perfect tarmac and have absolutely minimal or even no traffic. Once you do that, go around it a couple of times so that you can remember a bit how that is (you wouldn't want, for example, to arrive in a curve thinking that it's a nice wide one and then discover it's a hairpin curve and then fall into a ditch...) and then if you want to, go for it. But if you don't mind me saying so, always keep a little bit of caution anyway, I mean push your car at 90 % rather than what you'd think it's 100 % on a given road. In my own experience (unfortunately I bent a couple of cars in my life...Seen other people die too...so I guess I was lucky), that 10 % of buffer it's what can save your neck.
Being Swiss, I can tell you that one of those nice drives that many over there like, is to go up a mountain pass: plenty of curves there...generally very little traffic (as mountain pass roads are generally used by people that are out for a picnic or something like that and picnic is not a national sport in my country...ehehe...so not many people around. Main traffic uses highways...)...and seen that you are going up (I strongly caution you against going fast while going down a pass...if you have a bit of fade in your brakes, you might simply fall off the side of a mountain...), you can really step hard on it and the qualities of a good sports car can be seen in such a situation.
About racing on regular roads and how frequent it is, I must say that it's not such a common event. Police stepped up in its effort to catch speeders and also you need to find someone else at a given moment and it's not so frequent. When I was younger (and much more stupider), I probably can think of 4 or 5 instances only when I found someone that challenged me to a race and I am not proud to say that I took them all at the time. And this let's say in some 10-12 years of driving...after that, I stopped doing it, too risky for me, the prize isn't worth the risk.
As far as how illegal racing is done, well normally those twisty roads are only one lane (and then there is another lane with traffic that would travel in the opposite direction). So what happens is that you might see two people going like bats out of hell one after the other and then when someone sees an opening to overtake and his/her (I say her because I remember that my first girlfriend I ever had, was crazier than hell...I remember her taking curves on 3 wheels on her Fiat Uno 75...and she'd laugh so hard at doing that with her car...which was an econobox and not a sport car...So there are girls that do it as well, not only guys...) car has enough power to go past the other guy, he/she will do it.
Normally then one of the two gives up after a while...But it can get pretty intense, let me tell you...
But to repeat myself, it does not happen very often, not then and now even less...
As far as drag style racing...well that doesn't happen at all, there.
My opinion about why someone like me that was born and raised 4000 miles away from the US would be so passionate about muscle cars, is that I am VERY passionate about sport cars of all sorts. For me sport cars are like good wine and good food, there are so many types in the world, why limit yourself to only a few ? That's why I tried to have all sorts of sport cars, because I like them all.
Now, when it comes to American muscle cars, there is something about them that I can't really describe in a very good way, but I will try anyway. There is something visceral about them, the way they look, the way an American V8 sounds...You know they might not be the fastest or the best handling, but when I hear one, all the considerations about ultimate tech, hyper modern looks and razor sharp handling totally disappears and I just wanna own and drive one.
Owning a muscle car it's all about heart...the way it makes you feel...
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 3,581
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Originally Posted by Legion681
Drifting is interesting...but the real drifters in my mind, are still rally drivers. The whole concept in rally driving is to keep your car in a state of controlled drift (a sort of pendulum effect), all the time...they have been at it for decades now...
I think our Asian friends just imported that to a circuit/roadcourse...
I think our Asian friends just imported that to a circuit/roadcourse...
(I said CRAPPY, oh no, please dont go off saying that some japanese cars are not crappy, I know some are not, I am making a joke)
Cobra R Member
Joined: April 22, 2005
Posts: 1,898
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From: Lost Angels
Originally Posted by rrobello
I agree, I think drifting is stupid, and very funny how after only 2 years of America doing this profesionally we now dominate, just goes to show how crappy japanese cars are all around....LOL!
(I said CRAPPY, oh no, please dont go off saying that some japanese cars are not crappy, I know some are not, I am making a joke)
(I said CRAPPY, oh no, please dont go off saying that some japanese cars are not crappy, I know some are not, I am making a joke)
Cam Tease
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 1,378
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Originally Posted by rrobello
I agree, I think drifting is stupid, and very funny how after only 2 years of America doing this profesionally we now dominate, just goes to show how crappy japanese cars are all around....LOL!
Drift and rally take more vehicle control and skill than driving grip ever will. Though I agree the wholistic judging method for drifting is a joke and there is no real way to make it a "contest" with meaningful winners, it certainly has far more spectator appeal (redneck phenom excluded) than something like NASCAR.
By the way, many of the more succesful American drifters drive rice.
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by rrobello
I agree, I think drifting is stupid, and very funny how after only 2 years of America doing this profesionally we now dominate, just goes to show how crappy japanese cars are all around....LOL!
(I said CRAPPY, oh no, please dont go off saying that some japanese cars are not crappy, I know some are not, I am making a joke)
(I said CRAPPY, oh no, please dont go off saying that some japanese cars are not crappy, I know some are not, I am making a joke)
Bullitt Member
Joined: February 24, 2005
Posts: 347
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Originally Posted by AnotherMustangMan
Drift and rally take more vehicle control and skill than driving grip ever will. Though I agree the wholistic judging method for drifting is a joke and there is no real way to make it a "contest" with meaningful winners, it certainly has far more spectator appeal (redneck phenom excluded) than something like NASCAR.
By the way, many of the more succesful American drifters drive rice.
By the way, many of the more succesful American drifters drive rice.
I remember back in Europe that once a F1 driver (I think it was Alain Prost...yeah I am talking a while ago...say early 90s perhaps ?) was given a ride in WRC Rally car by one of those top pros and when it was over, Prost said that he'd never do that again and that rally drivers must be quite crazy...
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
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Originally Posted by AnotherMustangMan
Drift and rally take more vehicle control and skill than driving grip ever will. Though I agree the wholistic judging method for drifting is a joke and there is no real way to make it a "contest" with meaningful winners, it certainly has far more spectator appeal (redneck phenom excluded) than something like NASCAR.
By the way, many of the more succesful American drifters drive rice.
By the way, many of the more succesful American drifters drive rice.
and I like NASCAR, both myself and my friend (who is completely into drifting and has an S14) like watching it more than watching drifting and its not just rednecks watching it, I believe it is the most watched sport in the US and majority of the people watching are not hillbillies.
Gitten Jr. won it all at the big D1 Japan vs. USA in an 05 Mustang, btw Ive seen that car in person and talked to the owner of SMP whom built it and that car is a BEAST. And its tuned down because Gitten has a very heavy foot apparently and if they were running the car to its potential then he would just be all over the road. But heres a couple interesting things about that car, the suspension is so good that they had to dumb it up a lot in the rear end so they could break traction when Gitten wants to so he can DRIFT and even then it isnt sliding much, he is pretty much driving the car around the track and nor DRIFTing, because of this there isnt very much tire smoke produced so they had to have special rubber made for the tires that smoke easier and produce a lot of it. If you notice when Gitten DRIFTs there is more smoke than any of the other cars, so much so he made one guy get lost in it and spin out in that D1 competition.
Cam Tease
Joined: September 30, 2004
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Yeah, it went: 1. Gitten 2. Japanese 3. Japanese. 4. Japanese. 5. Japanese....then a few more Americans. I would hardly say Americans dominate the sport.
Also, besides the drivers, what is possibly entertaining about NASCAR? Granted, the series of the 60s was great, but since the good ol' days (aka, before I even had the opportunity to enjoy it) its almost as if NASCAR head honchos got together and said "hey, lets see if we can elminate as much excitement and variety from the sport as possible without losing our fan base!"
Identical cars lapping turnless tracks? My screensaver is less predictable.
WRC is far and away the most entertaining form of racing today.
Also, besides the drivers, what is possibly entertaining about NASCAR? Granted, the series of the 60s was great, but since the good ol' days (aka, before I even had the opportunity to enjoy it) its almost as if NASCAR head honchos got together and said "hey, lets see if we can elminate as much excitement and variety from the sport as possible without losing our fan base!"
Identical cars lapping turnless tracks? My screensaver is less predictable.
WRC is far and away the most entertaining form of racing today.
TMS West Coast Correspondent
Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 3,581
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Originally Posted by AnotherMustangMan
Yeah, it went: 1. Gitten 2. Japanese 3. Japanese. 4. Japanese. 5. Japanese....then a few more Americans. I would hardly say Americans dominate the sport.
Originally Posted by AnotherMustangMan
Also, besides the drivers, what is possibly entertaining about NASCAR? Granted, the series of the 60s was great, but since the good ol' days (aka, before I even had the opportunity to enjoy it) its almost as if NASCAR head honchos got together and said "hey, lets see if we can elminate as much excitement and variety from the sport as possible without losing our fan base!"
Identical cars lapping turnless tracks? My screensaver is less predictable.
Identical cars lapping turnless tracks? My screensaver is less predictable.
And I am still trying to figure out the whole arguement of "all they do is turn left" that people make. Like a right turn is any harder then a left? I know it adds more variety to a race to see a road course race and I enjoy both greatly, but they are two totally different styles of racing with their own advantages and disadvantages as to what makes them fun to watch. For instance people like to watch GT racing over NASCAR, great I love it too, but the average speed in a GT race is much slower than that of NASCAR, simply because of all of those turns where heavy breaking needs to be done. I love all racing and watch it all and in no way am I trying to say that NASCAR is more fun then GT, I am just pointing out how each have their own things that make them great.