boss429man

What makes you think there not??The 11 gt 500 is a great car but their's always more to be had. The presure from G/M will just up the anti.

PCW

Well if your directing that question to me, I never said they weren't, I just suggested that they should be. The 2011 is a good car, I wouldn't say it's a great car. Ford has to decide what direction they want the GT500 to go in. Is it a sport coupe or a sports car, there is a big difference. It goes fairly fast in a straight line, but that's it. It does handle better than previous years but it's still not a great handling car in track situations.

Just to get the live axle to behave you need look at Griggs Racing GR40ST Rear Suspension Kit or something like it, 4-5K later your getting closer, but you still have the weight problem. The difference between a sport coupe and a sport car is weight. I would consider the GT500 more of a GT (grand touring) type of car where weight was an after thought. Ford realizes now that they have to address the weight issue but the problem is weight has to be address in the beginning/planning stages, not after. Ford needs to have a supercharged V8 with 550 HP to move it all that weight. Sports Car focus on weight as priority one and builds the car around that thought.

Don't get me wrong I like the GT500 but I really expect much more out of Ford for the price.

pcw

1trickpony

PCW,

Ford improved the GT500's handling for 2010 and 2011. The 120 weight loss for the GT500 is important because it came off of the nose of the car. The Z28 won't be that much lighter than the CTS and will have the same balance regardless. The only thing a Z28 will be handing a 2012 GT500 is a pink piece of paper and not his *** back. 500-600 HP is probably the limit of RWD on street tires so yes it will be difficult to launch a GT500. The CTS-V benefits from launch control to help manage everything. I can see launch control as an easy upgrade for the 2012 GT500.

Cheers,

Greg

Overboost

+1 on Ford offering a launch control for the 2012 GT500 and Brembo equipped GTs. GM has been doing this in their sporty vehicles for some time now, and have it very well tuned. Given that the GT500 has a high tendency to break traction, this would really help take some of the finesse out of it for a driver new to the car. Make it defeatable and let those who choose not to use it turn it off.

PCW

Greg,

I do agree with the improved handling, as I already mentioned. I do disagree with you on the weight difference regarding the CTSV and the Z28. The CTSV is a Luxury sport coupe, lots of leather, heavier all power seats, more sound/road noise insulation for a quieter cabin, automatic, all that adds weight that the Zcar will not have. I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy the competition. I did have a deposit on a 2011 GT500 but decided to go in a different direction. After all the options I wanted, it billed out at 57K. IMO way to much for that car. With that kind of money you are in real sports car territory.

pcw

1trickpony

Regarding weight, GM Media lists the Camaro SS at 3849 and the CTS-V at 4222 (manual trannies). I'm sure a blower, intercooler, etc will add over 150 pounds to the car. The Z28 will be well optioned and have bigger tires, brakes. I would not be surprised if a Z28 weighs over 4100 pounds. Even it does weigh less, the lower weight won't improve the balance the way the 2011 GT500 did. I see a 2012 GT500 (550 HP, 3800 lbs) beating a 2012 Z28 (556 HP, 4100 lbs) in a straight line if you can get it to hook up. Around a track is another story.

PCW

Agree with the straight line "if" you can get to hook up. Normal BHP to ground loss is about 12-15 % with a 2WD and 20-25% with AWD. I would say you are losing even more % with a solid axle. Not to mention the weight saving you would gain going to a IRS where most components are made from aluminum now. No question that an auto with launch control helps, assuming you gain a 10th of a second with each swift to 60 that 2 tenth faster over a manual, not to many cars get to 60 in first gear with a manual, depends on gears and redline.

If you look at the 2009 MT best handling cars, the Porsche Cayman S won that test. It didn't have the most HP, didn't have the a turbo/supercharger. What it did have was a weight of 3150 lbs, 3.4-liter 320-horse flat-six mid engine and a 7 speed PDK (auto). What the professional driver who drove all 10 cars stated about the Porsche was, it was "perfectly balanced " It is a car that can be driven very hard, very near the limit, off stability control, and still stay completely under control." In other words, the Best Driver's Car. (And, yes, the best sports car in the world.)"

So there it is, a 4.4 0-60, a 12.9 1/4, 103' 60-0 stopping and a 1.0g Max lateral. It's about the complete package, weight and balance, if you have that, everything else will fall into place. The link is below for the article, it's a good read. Just to be fair the GT500 placed in the middle in 5th.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...car/index.html

pcw

1trickpony

Sorry if I misread your post but SRA is more efficient than IRS. I'd use .88 for SRA and .87 for IRS to guess RWHP on a car with a manual transmission.

PTRocks

As 1trickpony points out, SRA is more efficient. In terms of frictional losses, SRA doesn't have the 4 CV joints to absorb power, and uses at least one, if not two, less bearings per side as well. From the diff to the wheels, the rotational inertia may or may not be less with the SRA vs. IRS, though I suspect it is less, which means less power 'lost' to spinning up the rotating components.

It's possible to screw up the design of an IRS so that it doesn't want to put power down properly. I believe the design compromises needed to attach the Cobra's IRS using the same hard points as the SRA resulted in the whole suspension binding under load. This can happen regardless of the types of bushings used.

The SRA has the advantage that the tires are always properly cambered (0 deg), and there is no bump steer or track change in squat, which would reduce the tires' available traction at launch.

There are lots of advantages to IRS with respect to ride and handling, but most of them simply don't apply in a 0-60 test.

Dr Evil

the cayman S is alot more money the the GT500 and will get crushed on most tracks when compared to a performance pack 2011. Nice car though.

20115.0

lol look whose last, suprise suprise!

PCW

Dr Evil,

Not sure what you been smoking, it's one thing to say that a GT500 will crush a SS or even a new Z28 around the track. To say it will crush a Cayman or any Porsche just shows your predigest and ignorance. Yes Porsche's are more expensive than a GT500 for a very good reason, they are as close to a track ready car off the showroom floor that you can get today, period. Have you ever driven a Porsche? Have you ever seen underneath a Porsche? They are absolutely top notch quality and fit and finish are second to none. Whereas Ford just started to paint their rear axle's on their top of the line "Sports Car", I guess they finally got tired of all the complaints about rusted rear axles in a 50K car. If you knew anything about Porsche you would know how ridiculous your statement really is. Thanks for the good laugh.

pcw

todd03blown

guess you upset PCW...he must own a Porsche....

Dr Evil

sorry to be so ignorant....here is a nice video for your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aR7PIZhFUdc


for comparison here are the C&D lightning lap results from the same configuration at this track:

Mosler MT900S 02:45.9 LL5 2009
Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe ACR 02:48.6 LL3 2008
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 02:51.8 LL3 2009
KTM X-Bow 02:52.3 LLU 2009
Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 SV 02:53.9 LL5 2010
Ferrari 430 Scuderia 02:54.6 LL5 2008
Nissan GT-R 02:55.6 LL3 2009
Dodge Viper SRT10 02:57.4 LL3 2008
Ariel Atom 3 02:57.6 LLU 2009
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 02:58.2 LL3 2007
Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport 02:58.8 LL2 2010
Nissan GT-R (all-season tires) 02:59.0 LL3 2009
Audi R8 5.2 FSI Quattro 02:59.5 LL4 2010
Ford GT 03:00.7 LL4 2006
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 03:01.1 LL3 2006
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 03:01.2 LL2
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe 03:01.6 LL3 2006
Porsche 911 GT3 03:01.8 LL3 2007
Chevrolet Corvette Z51 03:03.6 LL2 2007
Cadillac CTS-V 03:04.0 LL2 2009
Lotus Exige S 03:04.5 LL3 2007
Audi R8 03:04.6 LL3 2007
Lotus Exige S 260 Sport 03:05.0 LL3 2009
BMW M3 03:05.4 LL2 2009
BMW M3 03:05.6 LL2 2008
Porsche Cayman S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Porsche 911 Turbo 03:05.8 LL4 2007
Porsche 911 Carrera S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Ford Shelby GT500 03:05.9 LL2 2007

I guess that '11 might run a little better than you thought huh? Hell the 07 model was right on top of the updated Cayman S.


PS. Make sure to watch that entire video it's less than 3 minutes long

1 COBRA

On the I am right and everyone else is wrong department because I say so, fantasy beats facts every time.
Oh... REALLY?

todd03blown

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PCW

Doesn't seem odd that 3 different Porsche, all ran at different days and even different years have the exact time???? In fact it's the only 3 cars that have the exact same time in the entire list.



Porsche Cayman S 03:05.8 LL3 2009
Porsche 911 Turbo 03:05.8 LL4 2007
Porsche 911 Carrera S 03:05.8 LL3 2009

Here is something for you.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...car/index.html

Your super great handling 2007 GT500 didn't even make the cut, hmmm. Look the porsche's finished 1 and 2

I'm done with this. I wish the 2011 GT500 good luck and I will be watching for those best handling comparisons. If the GT500 is on top, then good for Ford and they obviously have been doing their homework. Like I said at the beginning, competition is a win/win for everyone, it keeps all the car manufacturers on their toes.

pcw

Dr Evil

I'm sure you are "done with this" after you're fanboyish opinion got crushed. Those track times are from an independent test and if you pay close attention you'll notice the Cayman S and Carrera S were even run on the same day. As to how they got the exact same laptime? I don't know but you can read the article and contact Car and Driver to ask them.

The point of this is when you stick big tires and brakes under a stiff chassis and add lots of HP you get good track times. The 2011 GT500 definitely fits that bill and offers performance that will humble basically anything made at it's price point. Bang for the buck has always been the forte of domestic automakers.

Porsche makes great cars that offer some of the best vehicle dynamics out there. Your problem is that you confuse how a car feels while driving it with actual performance. The Cayman is a great car and offers a drive that few cars can compare with but to suggest it can outperform a 550HP GT500 with stiff suspension on a road course is a bit of a stretch. A better comparison will be that new Clubsport model coming out that will drop some weight and add a little power and more than likely get a good set of tires. That car might get close to the 2011 GT500 which would be a big accomplishment for a car with less than 350hp.

The article you posted demonstrates what I am saying. Notice the Z06 finished last is that test even though it would absolutely crush every car in that test on a racetrack. The article was about which car felt the best not performed the best. Obviously a 2007 GT500 doesn't belong in a test of this sort.

stangfoeva

Winner, Dr. Evil.

Matt351

I'm still looking for a definition to predigest... I rarely post anything and it's even rarer for me to post anything about spelling or grammar, but I mean come on... predigest??? What is he preparing to eat or what did he eat that he needs to predigest something...