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Firearms question

Old 11/26/15, 02:25 PM
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Well, in all fairness it might be effective at stopping the attack...
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Old 11/26/15, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Joeywhat View Post
Well, in all fairness it might be effective at stopping the attack...
As long as you don't have a failure to fire!
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Old 11/26/15, 05:22 PM
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Not so good advice

Originally Posted by berzerk_1980 View Post
+1 on SIG if you are looking for a premium handgun. If you are looking for a more practical "beat on it" type of gun, then Ruger or Glock. If it's only for home defense and the range then premium is probably a better choice. For example, I have a SIG P226 that is for home and the range. I carry a Ruger LCP because it's light, cheap and gets worn just from carrying it around (think like your wallet or keys). You probably don't want to wreck the finish on a premium gun unless you're made of money.


Screw that advice, a gun is a tool just like a Hammer. You wouldn't spend big dollars on a hammer and only use it on the really clean jobs. If you buy a premium pistol carry the premium pistol. Practice with it, live with it, it may save your life. And if someday you look at it and its a little less than pretty you can always have a 'smith turn it into a like new weapon again. I have a 70's Series Colt Govt that I bought in 77' returning from Germany. I carried it for years on the streets of Chicago (yeah I know), point is after 15 years of daily use it looked like crap. But a Clearwater Gunsmith rebuilt it for me in 92' and it was back to being a beauty again. It was rebuilt again in 2007 and now has a place of honor in my safe. The carry duties have been assumed by a Sig P227 and it is taking its share of wear and use.

And I know we are car guys and keeping things pristine is a passion but guns are different they are for messing things up, people, paper or food. They will get dirty and worn if you are going to get good at using them.
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Old 11/26/15, 05:31 PM
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My really nice tools look the worst...because they get used all the time and can handle the abuse.

My cheap stuff usually looks new...mostly because it breaks after one or two uses so it's never around long enough to look gross.
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Old 11/26/15, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tacbear View Post
As long as you don't have a failure to fire!
They have a pill for that.
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Old 11/26/15, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Roadk9 View Post


Screw that advice, a gun is a tool just like a Hammer. You wouldn't spend big dollars on a hammer and only use it on the really clean jobs. If you buy a premium pistol carry the premium pistol. Practice with it, live with it, it may save your life. And if someday you look at it and its a little less than pretty you can always have a 'smith turn it into a like new weapon again. I have a 70's Series Colt Govt that I bought in 77' returning from Germany. I carried it for years on the streets of Chicago (yeah I know), point is after 15 years of daily use it looked like crap. But a Clearwater Gunsmith rebuilt it for me in 92' and it was back to being a beauty again. It was rebuilt again in 2007 and now has a place of honor in my safe. The carry duties have been assumed by a Sig P227 and it is taking its share of wear and use.

And I know we are car guys and keeping things pristine is a passion but guns are different they are for messing things up, people, paper or food. They will get dirty and worn if you are going to get good at using them.
My series 70 MK IV suffered the same fate...I got tired of carrying a boat anchor that only held 8 rounds, so I sold it and now carry a Springfield XD. My Springfield is a 4" Compact XD with TFO fiber optic night sights and a Crimson Trace Railmaster Light/Laser. My spare mags are 13 rounds so I carry 36 rounds of 45 Black Talon 45 ACP! Since I am LEOSA I carry this combo every day..everywhere in any state.
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Old 11/26/15, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post
Are there any good books or on-line resources that are geared for beginner firearms owners?
Tom, what are you hoping to learn from these books? Shooting technique, home gunsmithing, tactical strategy, formal target shooting procedures, reloading...?

There are scads of resources available; it just depends on what you are trying to educate yourself on. Amazon is a great resource for books like you may be looking for, but you'll have to narrow the search parameters down somewhat. Might also check into some gun-related forums. Rimfire Central is my own favorite. Lots of good information on Youtube, as well, (and maybe some not-so-good).
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Old 11/27/15, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Roadk9 View Post


Screw that advice, a gun is a tool just like a Hammer. You wouldn't spend big dollars on a hammer and only use it on the really clean jobs. If you buy a premium pistol carry the premium pistol. Practice with it, live with it, it may save your life. And if someday you look at it and its a little less than pretty you can always have a 'smith turn it into a like new weapon again. I have a 70's Series Colt Govt that I bought in 77' returning from Germany. I carried it for years on the streets of Chicago (yeah I know), point is after 15 years of daily use it looked like crap. But a Clearwater Gunsmith rebuilt it for me in 92' and it was back to being a beauty again. It was rebuilt again in 2007 and now has a place of honor in my safe. The carry duties have been assumed by a Sig P227 and it is taking its share of wear and use.

And I know we are car guys and keeping things pristine is a passion but guns are different they are for messing things up, people, paper or food. They will get dirty and worn if you are going to get good at using them.
Wow, pretty harsh.

I guess it's different strokes for different folks. But it doesn't matter anyway as Tom will not be carrying and that's really what hoses your finish. I just figured if Tom has a show winning Mustang he's the type to get frustrated with wear on a really nice piece. I know I do, so I carry stuff that doesn't bother me if it wears.
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Old 11/27/15, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickstang View Post
Tom, what are you hoping to learn from these books? Shooting technique, home gunsmithing, tactical strategy, formal target shooting procedures, reloading...?
Mick

I was hoping there might be some sort of book akin to the _____ For Dummies publications. It's all part of the research process in helping me make decisions. I have a lot of down-time while waiting for my NJ permits to be issued which I understand will take at least 30 days, and probably even longer. I figured I'd try to educate myself as much as possible.

I do this with every endeavor to some degree. Unlike automobiles (especially Mustangs of course) for which I have the knowledge to form my own opinions, I am a total firearms newbie. I want to learn terminology, get a heads up on safety before attending formal training, objective comparisons/reviews, etc.

For instance, I just found out the physical difference between rim-fire and center-fire, but don't know why gun owners prefer one over the other. From basic on-line searching of gun vendors, I've noticed that there's more availability and selection of center-fire weapons, so I assume that ammo for center-fire is less expensive and more available. But as to advantages/disadvantages of either, I'm lost. It's things like that which I like to learn about. Plus answers to questions always begat more questions and I like that info at my fingertips.

I try to avoid seeking opinions on "which is better". I know that I have to get a little base of knowledge and some hands-on experience before I go down that road. But general info is what I seek.

I'll check out Rim Fire Central and start there. Thanks for the tip.
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Old 11/27/15, 06:35 AM
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For all practical purposes, rimfire = .22 caliber (low power cartridge, used for fun, target practice and killing small game), while centerfire is everything else. There is very little use for a rimfire for self defense, but they are cheap (guns and ammo) and a lot of fun to shoot so a worthwhile option for going to range and having fun without spending a ton of money.
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Old 11/27/15, 07:31 AM
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For books, Id suggest the annual gun digest:

http://www.gundigeststore.com/gun-di...annual-edition

Its basically a catalog of current handguns, rifles and shotguns found in the market and a decent research tool.
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Old 11/27/15, 10:01 PM
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Tom, there is nothing in the "For Dummies" series in the area of firearms information... or I'd have a copy and the cover would likely be worn out! There are numerous books of general knowledge available, all pretty much restating the same basic information, albeit some become dated in references to firearms no longer in manufacture while obviously making no mention of products which replaced them in the marketplace. My own area of interest happens to be in the older stuff; I've never owned a Sig, Glock, Springfield XD, etc. or any of the "tactical" weaponry-- although I may be taking possession of my first AR type rifle in the very near future-- but I could show you some fine old Colts, S&W's, and Remingtons made by craftsmen with hand tools and know-how. The library is an excellent place to look for basic intro material; the price is right and you'll graduate past that level so there's not much sense in paying for them or giving them shelf space. If you are interested in personal protection techniques, you might read Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner", an old book by an old master, R.I.P., or anything by Massad Ayoob or Jim Cirillo. Be advised that the author's personal opinions will come out first and foremost, and other authors will often disparage and deny the credibility of anyone with an opinion different from their own! If you have a specific question, you are free to send me a PM, and I'll try my best to answer it; however, if it's in regard to specific modern weapons, you might be better off asking someone like Tacbear. A man's got to know his own limitations! Welcome to the shooting fraternity; join the NRA, and always ALWAYS think "Safety First".
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Old 11/28/15, 04:03 PM
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I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

First off, I've been raised around guns. My father was both a gun collector and a gunsmith. His best friend is a gunsmith and CCL trainer with a Class 3 FFL. So I've had access to and shot everything from 1930s single shot 22 rifles to a 105mm howitzer. Military and police works runs heavy in my family as well. I've fired tons of collector guns, tons of daily shooters, and tons of weapons designed for professional use.

If you want a good regular shooter, something that will be accurate, reliable and respectable for the home shooter, you can't go wrong with a Ruger, Remington, Smith and Wesson, Walther, Springfield, or Kahr. These weapons are all reliable, accurate enough for the majority of people, and priced well. They aren't cheap, but they won't break the bank either, and they have good consistency in quality across the entire product lines.

If you want something made for the professional, something which soldiers and police rely on to save their own lives every day then Sig Sauer is what you want to look at. Glock is also a reliable choice, but not quite as accurate or as nice looking. If you're talking to a cop 95 times out of 100 they'll be carrying a Sig or a Glock.

Models which are hit and miss in their quality are Savage, Mossberg, H&R, and Colt. Some of the weapons made by these manufacturers are excellent, and some are problematic. Some of these weapons are also premium priced at midrange quality. Researching the precise model is essential if you're considering a weapon from one of these. (And for the record here, I own both a Colt 1991A1 and a Savage Model 99 .308)

Weapons I would recommend avoiding are Taurus, Kel Tec, and Hi Point Arms (And their sub-named Raven/Jennings/Bryco/Davis products). These guns are cheap and they often either have reliability problems (Particularly the Hi Point products) or miss essential features like safeties which is common on Taurus and Kel Tec models. These are the classic Saturday Night Special and should be avoided unless you want a disposable weapon. When something breaks in them they generally aren't worth fixing.



Now, when it comes to specific ammo types, I'll just toss this out here for the fun of it.

9mm is cheap to shoot, and a good quality 9mm can do anything you want to do with it. For a first gun I would HIGHLY recommend the 9mm primarily because you can afford to go out and fire a hundred rounds a month through it, and yet it has the power to use for self defense. Cost of ammo is always a concern, and 9mm is very cheap.

I would also HIGHLY recommend getting a high quality .22 as a second gun for the same reason. You can fire thousands of rounds through a .22, learning and improving you accuracy and technique for very little money. It's not a self defense weapon, but you'll learn to shoot better firing a thousand rounds of .22 than you will firing 5 magazines of .45 ACP. I personally do the majority of my shooting with a Walther P22 Tactical. I fire around 500 rounds a month through this gun and it's needed very little maintenance work over the 10 years that I've had it.

I'm probably going to draw some hate for this, but I would avoid getting a .45, especially a 1911 until you've reached the point where you can shoot well, have experience with a variety of guns and ammunition types, are comfortable with maintaining and light repair work on your own guns, and can afford to spend a small fortune on ammo. I LOVE 1911s, I own two including a 1943 US Army issue Remington Rand 1911 A1, but they are NOT for novices. They can be problematic, especially with various hollowpoint ammo types, they are VERY sensitive to being properly maintained and lubricated, and depending on the manufacturer and specific model type some of their parts are prone to failure and breaking. A well made and well working 1911 is a beautiful gun to hold and shoot, but they are NOT for novices just starting out.

And with that said, this is my favorite gun in my own collection.

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Last edited by Moustang; 11/28/15 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11/28/15, 06:04 PM
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I agree on 9mm being affordable. Able Ammo sells Fiocchi 115gr FMJs for something like $10.99 for a 50 round box.

I also agree on the 22 for LOTS of very cheap practice. I've had a Ruger Single Six for years and enjoy shooting it, although it is obviously a different hold than my Sig. It came with a 22 magnum cylinder as well and I keep it loaded with 22 magnum hollow points at home.

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Old 11/29/15, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlack14 View Post
Can't be more than modding a Mustang....I hope.

Originally Posted by berzerk_1980 View Post
Depends on how taken with it you become. Ammo and range time is way more expensive than gas. Buying hardware can be addictive too.
Depending on what hardware you're buying the hardware can far exceed the cost of ammo and range time.

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1943 Remington Rand M1911 A1 with all 3 US Army issued magazines = $2,600

1953 Springfield Armory M1 Garand (.30-06) with sling, bayonet with scabbard, and 30 strip clips = $1,500

1953 Winchester M1 Carbine .30 with sling, bayonet, two 15 round magazines and two 30 round magazines = $2,700


That's $6,800 worth of hardware right there.


And then there is this...

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100% custom, hand carved, hand cut, hand engraved, hand finished, and everything except the screws, barrel, and trigger/hammer assembly were hand made. Even the trigger guard and ram rod were hand made. It's a .50 caliber flint lock Kentucky Long Rifle.

Replicas made from kits can run in the $500-$900 range. Authentics from the early 1800s can run into the tens of thousands. If I were to sell this one I wouldn't even consider taking less than $5,000, but to me it's priceless. Family heirloom.
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Old 11/30/15, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Moustang View Post
I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

First off, I've been raised around guns. My father was both a gun collector and a gunsmith. His best friend is a gunsmith and CCL trainer with a Class 3 FFL. So I've had access to and shot everything from 1930s single shot 22 rifles to a 105mm howitzer. Military and police works runs heavy in my family as well. I've fired tons of collector guns, tons of daily shooters, and tons of weapons designed for professional use.

If you want a good regular shooter, something that will be accurate, reliable and respectable for the home shooter, you can't go wrong with a Ruger, Remington, Smith and Wesson, Walther, Springfield, or Kahr. These weapons are all reliable, accurate enough for the majority of people, and priced well. They aren't cheap, but they won't break the bank either, and they have good consistency in quality across the entire product lines.

If you want something made for the professional, something which soldiers and police rely on to save their own lives every day then Sig Sauer is what you want to look at. Glock is also a reliable choice, but not quite as accurate or as nice looking. If you're talking to a cop 95 times out of 100 they'll be carrying a Sig or a Glock.

Models which are hit and miss in their quality are Savage, Mossberg, H&R, and Colt. Some of the weapons made by these manufacturers are excellent, and some are problematic. Some of these weapons are also premium priced at midrange quality. Researching the precise model is essential if you're considering a weapon from one of these. (And for the record here, I own both a Colt 1991A1 and a Savage Model 99 .308)

Weapons I would recommend avoiding are Taurus, Kel Tec, and Hi Point Arms (And their sub-named Raven/Jennings/Bryco/Davis products). These guns are cheap and they often either have reliability problems (Particularly the Hi Point products) or miss essential features like safeties which is common on Taurus and Kel Tec models. These are the classic Saturday Night Special and should be avoided unless you want a disposable weapon. When something breaks in them they generally aren't worth fixing.



Now, when it comes to specific ammo types, I'll just toss this out here for the fun of it.

9mm is cheap to shoot, and a good quality 9mm can do anything you want to do with it. For a first gun I would HIGHLY recommend the 9mm primarily because you can afford to go out and fire a hundred rounds a month through it, and yet it has the power to use for self defense. Cost of ammo is always a concern, and 9mm is very cheap.

I would also HIGHLY recommend getting a high quality .22 as a second gun for the same reason. You can fire thousands of rounds through a .22, learning and improving you accuracy and technique for very little money. It's not a self defense weapon, but you'll learn to shoot better firing a thousand rounds of .22 than you will firing 5 magazines of .45 ACP. I personally do the majority of my shooting with a Walther P22 Tactical. I fire around 500 rounds a month through this gun and it's needed very little maintenance work over the 10 years that I've had it.

I'm probably going to draw some hate for this, but I would avoid getting a .45, especially a 1911 until you've reached the point where you can shoot well, have experience with a variety of guns and ammunition types, are comfortable with maintaining and light repair work on your own guns, and can afford to spend a small fortune on ammo. I LOVE 1911s, I own two including a 1943 US Army issue Remington Rand 1911 A1, but they are NOT for novices. They can be problematic, especially with various hollowpoint ammo types, they are VERY sensitive to being properly maintained and lubricated, and depending on the manufacturer and specific model type some of their parts are prone to failure and breaking. A well made and well working 1911 is a beautiful gun to hold and shoot, but they are NOT for novices just starting out.

And with that said, this is my favorite gun in my own collection.

I am a retired LEO SWAT Asst. Team leader/Sniper/Trainer that has carried S & W's, Glocks and Sigs and the worst pistol I was ever issued was a SIG!! We had problems with every P220 that the teams were issued, it was so bad that Sig sent 2 technicians to check our weapons. Most of the problems centered around the magazines, but my pistol never worked right. It would malfunction about every other mag. It performed every malfunction I have ever seen and some I have never heard of. We eventually turned them in and were issued Glocks. My Glock has at least 25,000 rounds fired and I honestly can't remember EVER having a malfunction (except for induced malfunctions during malfunction drills). Don't even get me started on S & W's (of course the S & W's we were issued were the old 5906 9mm).

Glocks are not pretty or the most accurate (SIG/FN) but if you press the trigger they send a round down range. I was a Firearms Instructor during our Glock transition and I watched 700+ officers fire 1000 rounds each and can say I could count on 2 hands how many malfunctions we had with the new Glocks. I never liked the Glock grip angle so I sold all my Glocks and carry only Springfield XD's. I am finding that the XD is just as reliable as the Glock and almost as accurate as a SIG or FN. Good Looking....well it is a tool, Professional...ABSOLUTELY! I could buy anything I want...I choose Springfield's because after 31 years of carrying every day it works best for me!!

P.S. I also sold my Series 70 Mk IV Colt 45 acp because as much fun as it was to shoot and as good as the accuracy was....it was not very reliable and it was toooo heavy to carry every day and the mags only carry 8 rounds of 45 acp goodness.

This is what I carry everyday now 4" XD 45 compact with TruGlo TFO Tritium sights and a Crimson Trace Railmaster light/laser.
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Old 11/30/15, 10:19 AM
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The only sigs I've ever seen run well were old ones. Sig went full retard anyways with all the bring BS they put out now... What a joke. That being said I've owned 3 XDs and none of them ran, either. I stick with my M&P, or if I'm feeling different my CZ75. Both have so few failures over tens of thousands of rounds that it's not even a concern.

I should go buy my XD back from whoever I sold it to and practice malfunction drills...
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Old 11/30/15, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Joeywhat View Post
The only sigs I've ever seen run well were old ones. Sig went full retard anyways with all the bring BS they put out now... What a joke. That being said I've owned 3 XDs and none of them ran, either. I stick with my M&P, or if I'm feeling different my CZ75. Both have so few failures over tens of thousands of rounds that it's not even a concern.

I should go buy my XD back from whoever I sold it to and practice malfunction drills...
I don't know what you mean by an "old" SIG..but the one I had problems with was issued in 1992.

I figure if XD's will run using my hard cast lead reloads...they will run on anything! My compact 45 has ingested about 1500 230g hard cast lead round nose, 1000 American Eagle 230g jacketed round nose and 200 rounds of 230g Jacketed Hollow points with no problems.

I wanted to like the M & P because it was American made...but the full size 45 holds the same number of rounds as my XD compact and the XD compact is easier to conceal.
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Old 11/30/15, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tacbear View Post
I don't know what you mean by an "old" SIG..but the one I had problems with was issued in 1992.

I figure if XD's will run using my hard cast lead reloads...they will run on anything! My compact 45 has ingested about 1500 230g hard cast lead round nose, 1000 American Eagle 230g jacketed round nose and 200 rounds of 230g Jacketed Hollow points with no problems.

I wanted to like the M & P because it was American made...but the full size 45 holds the same number of rounds as my XD compact and the XD compact is easier to conceal.
I'm at about 30,000 rounds with my M&P now, almost every malf has been ammo related (gotta love cheap Russian ammo). It's stupid how well it shoots. If I feed it good ammo it just runs.

I had an XD 9, 40 and 45. The 9 at least worked most the time, and the 40 was almost as good. The 45 wouldn't shoot a **** thing save for Winchester white box. Either way, none of them worked well enough for me to keep around. Plus, I think grip safeties are ridiculous, especially when it's as small as the XD. I can live with a 1911 safety since it's enormous and super easy to activate. My sub compact XD was a PITA to shoot one handed since my hand wouldn't depress the grip safety half the time.

Plus, I don't much care how it's the same exact gun (well, the "regular" XD, at least) that came out 15 years ago under the HS2000 name, but at a significantly higher price point...probably so people will think it's better. Back when it was a $350 pistol it was quite a bargain...but when it starts to cost as much as a Glock or M&P?

The Sigs I have the most experience with are the older P6/P225's. Those seem to be built like tanks. Never liked Sig anyways since they're fairly bulky and I don't much go for decockers.
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Old 12/1/15, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Joeywhat View Post
I'm at about 30,000 rounds with my M&P now, almost every malf has been ammo related (gotta love cheap Russian ammo). It's stupid how well it shoots. If I feed it good ammo it just runs.

I had an XD 9, 40 and 45. The 9 at least worked most the time, and the 40 was almost as good. The 45 wouldn't shoot a **** thing save for Winchester white box. Either way, none of them worked well enough for me to keep around. Plus, I think grip safeties are ridiculous, especially when it's as small as the XD. I can live with a 1911 safety since it's enormous and super easy to activate. My sub compact XD was a PITA to shoot one handed since my hand wouldn't depress the grip safety half the time.

Plus, I don't much care how it's the same exact gun (well, the "regular" XD, at least) that came out 15 years ago under the HS2000 name, but at a significantly higher price point...probably so people will think it's better. Back when it was a $350 pistol it was quite a bargain...but when it starts to cost as much as a Glock or M&P?

The Sigs I have the most experience with are the older P6/P225's. Those seem to be built like tanks. Never liked Sig anyways since they're fairly bulky and I don't much go for decockers.
Well you certainly can't expect any ammo from Russia to be reliable. I am glad to hear that the M & P is so reliable...if their 45 was higher capacity I would be rocking M & P's.

I guess I am one of the few that like grip safeties. The only time I have had trouble with my grip safety was when I would use gloves that were too small (good reason to train).

I have had my compact XD 45 since 2008, I think it cost under $400.00. Of course my new 5" Tactical XD 45 set me back a few "Hondo's"

Yes...Decockers Suck!!
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