China Threatens America
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Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
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From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Of course oil is why we're in Iraq. The Saddam thing was just window dressing. Maybe you've forgotten the genocide in Ruwanda, which is why we intervened there. What? We didn't? But they were killing so many people! True, but it didn't affect us because-guess what-Ruwanda doesn't have any oil reserves. Sad, but true.
I understand China wanting its place in the world order. The great irony is that under Mao and especially during his Cultural Revolution China was one of the poorest countries on earth. For the average citizen it remains so today. But those "capitalist roaders" who were denounced under Mao have led China to a place of world prominence today. That scares me a lot. Read a little history of China since 1949 and you'll understand why.
Our trade imbalance with that country scares me even more. BC is right. All they have to do is repudiate our debt and we're up the creek.
When Bush was in Brazil he was shown how the country had spent more than ten years developing an alternative fuel system and now they're pretty much independent of petroleum. Their cars can all burn ethanol which they produce themselves.
Could the US do that? Of course. Should we? Absolutely. So why don't we do it? Could it be that the oil industry maintains one of the most powerful lobbies in Congress? You be the judge.
If we make the right decisions as a country about alternative energy in the near future we may see the day when we can tell OPEC to pour their oil on their corn flakes in the morning.
I understand China wanting its place in the world order. The great irony is that under Mao and especially during his Cultural Revolution China was one of the poorest countries on earth. For the average citizen it remains so today. But those "capitalist roaders" who were denounced under Mao have led China to a place of world prominence today. That scares me a lot. Read a little history of China since 1949 and you'll understand why.
Our trade imbalance with that country scares me even more. BC is right. All they have to do is repudiate our debt and we're up the creek.
When Bush was in Brazil he was shown how the country had spent more than ten years developing an alternative fuel system and now they're pretty much independent of petroleum. Their cars can all burn ethanol which they produce themselves.
Could the US do that? Of course. Should we? Absolutely. So why don't we do it? Could it be that the oil industry maintains one of the most powerful lobbies in Congress? You be the judge.
If we make the right decisions as a country about alternative energy in the near future we may see the day when we can tell OPEC to pour their oil on their corn flakes in the morning.
Fact is, we (and I'm actually speaking of the U.S. here) are often behind-the-scenes pulling the strings in foreign countries, which often sows the seeds of trouble that comes back to bite us on the **** years later...all for no other reason than economic and political self-interest. Ask yourself who benefits from this conflict. Certainly corporate America, in the form of the military-industrial complex...and probably Israel, who had understandably been itching to see Saddam go.
Now, was Saddam a bad guy? Yep, absolutely.
Was he another Hitler? He should be so talented. Until you've killed 11 million people and taken over most of Europe, you're no Hitler. That's sort of like equating the common cold with Bubonic Plague.
Were WE responsible for funding and supporting him for many years when it served our purposes to have a "check" against Iran? Yep, you bet we were.
Has removing Saddam improved the lives of the people of Iraq and led to democracy, peace and prosperity for the region? I'll let the facts on the ground speak for themselves on that one.
The truth of the matter is that Iraq is such a complex patchwork quilt of competing tribes and religious groups, that Saddam's iron rule was, ironically, the glue that held everything together. Remove that "glue" and we see what happens. Fact is, it will probably take the emergence of another "strongman" to bring some semblence of stability back to the country - assuming we can ever call it a country again.
Bottom line: countries have to fight for democracy on their own...in their own good time...and when they're ready - if they EVER are. Imposing it upon people with a fundamentally different history and set of beliefs than ourselves has little chance of working.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 28, 2004
Posts: 548
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Of course oil is why we're in Iraq. The Saddam thing was just window dressing. Maybe you've forgotten the genocide in Ruwanda, which is why we intervened there. What? We didn't? But they were killing so many people! True, but it didn't affect us because-guess what-Ruwanda doesn't have any oil reserves. Sad, but true.
Maybe you want to take a little closer look at what was going on in Ruwanda, that it wasn't only the US that didn't want to get involved there. What has the UN been doing in Ruwanda? Ummm, how about nothing, because it's next to impossible to make heads or tails of the situation there. It's not an simple as Government A is killing people B, or Rebels C are killing Government A. It's tribal factions fighting.
It has nothing to do with oil in Ruwanda. Ruwanda, for ANY army, would be the biggest meatgrinder EVER. If you think Iraq is bad...it PALES in comparison to what Vietnam was like and Vietnam would be a blip on what would happen in Ruwanda.
Funny, people can't seem to pick a side, either the USA should be Globocop or it shouldn't. Either the USA should stick it's nose in every conflict or it shouldn't. People want their cake and be able to eat it too. Go clean up the worlds messes, but don't give our military enough money, equipment or latitude to do it right. Send in the troops, but don't let any of them die, because if they do, it's automatically a bad cause and there must be something else about oil or money behind it.
Invade Iraq after 9/11, but don't ask any legitimate questions before we do...like where is the proof of WMD's? Or why are we going after Saddam when they weren't the ones that rammed two planes into the World Trade Center. But after an overwhelming vote to invade Iraq, lets start talking about pulling the troops out after it gets a little rough. Oh, and blaming the President for putting troops there, although BOTH Republicans and Democrats voted for the troops to be sent.
And don't give me that "the President lied to us" crap. It's our elected officials JOB to question things like that, to have all of the FACTS before voting for something. I would bet almost every **** one of them that voted to send the troops over to Iraq checked the polls first, to see if it would help them come re-election time.
Sorry for the rant, this kind of stuff is just driving me nuts lately.
And China made a jet that can out perform the F-16...welcome to 1980. The real question is, can their pilots fly worth a ****? Because I'm pretty sure that an F-15 can track and aquire more targets than it has missles for. And I'll put a US pilot up against anyone in the world.
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 28, 2004
Posts: 548
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Couldn't agree with you more here!
Bullitt Member
Joined: November 9, 2004
Posts: 222
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And China made a jet that can out perform the F-16...welcome to 1980. The real question is, can their pilots fly worth a ****? Because I'm pretty sure that an F-15 can track and aquire more targets than it has missles for. And I'll put a US pilot up against anyone in the world.
Well said!
Post *****
Joined: February 3, 2004
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Cobra Member
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 1,268
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Welcome to the "Let's Over Simplify Things Game"!!!
Maybe you want to take a little closer look at what was going on in Ruwanda, that it wasn't only the US that didn't want to get involved there. What has the UN been doing in Ruwanda? Ummm, how about nothing, because it's next to impossible to make heads or tails of the situation there. It's not an simple as Government A is killing people B, or Rebels C are killing Government A. It's tribal factions fighting.
It has nothing to do with oil in Ruwanda. Ruwanda, for ANY army, would be the biggest meatgrinder EVER. If you think Iraq is bad...it PALES in comparison to what Vietnam was like and Vietnam would be a blip on what would happen in Ruwanda.
Funny, people can't seem to pick a side, either the USA should be Globocop or it shouldn't. Either the USA should stick it's nose in every conflict or it shouldn't. People want their cake and be able to eat it too. Go clean up the worlds messes, but don't give our military enough money, equipment or latitude to do it right. Send in the troops, but don't let any of them die, because if they do, it's automatically a bad cause and there must be something else about oil or money behind it.
Invade Iraq after 9/11, but don't ask any legitimate questions before we do...like where is the proof of WMD's? Or why are we going after Saddam when they weren't the ones that rammed two planes into the World Trade Center. But after an overwhelming vote to invade Iraq, lets start talking about pulling the troops out after it gets a little rough. Oh, and blaming the President for putting troops there, although BOTH Republicans and Democrats voted for the troops to be sent.
And don't give me that "the President lied to us" crap. It's our elected officials JOB to question things like that, to have all of the FACTS before voting for something. I would bet almost every **** one of them that voted to send the troops over to Iraq checked the polls first, to see if it would help them come re-election time.
Sorry for the rant, this kind of stuff is just driving me nuts lately.
And China made a jet that can out perform the F-16...welcome to 1980. The real question is, can their pilots fly worth a ****? Because I'm pretty sure that an F-15 can track and aquire more targets than it has missles for. And I'll put a US pilot up against anyone in the world.
Maybe you want to take a little closer look at what was going on in Ruwanda, that it wasn't only the US that didn't want to get involved there. What has the UN been doing in Ruwanda? Ummm, how about nothing, because it's next to impossible to make heads or tails of the situation there. It's not an simple as Government A is killing people B, or Rebels C are killing Government A. It's tribal factions fighting.
It has nothing to do with oil in Ruwanda. Ruwanda, for ANY army, would be the biggest meatgrinder EVER. If you think Iraq is bad...it PALES in comparison to what Vietnam was like and Vietnam would be a blip on what would happen in Ruwanda.
Funny, people can't seem to pick a side, either the USA should be Globocop or it shouldn't. Either the USA should stick it's nose in every conflict or it shouldn't. People want their cake and be able to eat it too. Go clean up the worlds messes, but don't give our military enough money, equipment or latitude to do it right. Send in the troops, but don't let any of them die, because if they do, it's automatically a bad cause and there must be something else about oil or money behind it.
Invade Iraq after 9/11, but don't ask any legitimate questions before we do...like where is the proof of WMD's? Or why are we going after Saddam when they weren't the ones that rammed two planes into the World Trade Center. But after an overwhelming vote to invade Iraq, lets start talking about pulling the troops out after it gets a little rough. Oh, and blaming the President for putting troops there, although BOTH Republicans and Democrats voted for the troops to be sent.
And don't give me that "the President lied to us" crap. It's our elected officials JOB to question things like that, to have all of the FACTS before voting for something. I would bet almost every **** one of them that voted to send the troops over to Iraq checked the polls first, to see if it would help them come re-election time.
Sorry for the rant, this kind of stuff is just driving me nuts lately.
And China made a jet that can out perform the F-16...welcome to 1980. The real question is, can their pilots fly worth a ****? Because I'm pretty sure that an F-15 can track and aquire more targets than it has missles for. And I'll put a US pilot up against anyone in the world.
The US is a global super power. We were isolationist up to the nearly the end of WWI and very reluctantly entered the arena. The League of Nations followed in 1919, ineffectively. We were passive in WWII until Pearl Harbor
and as they say, the rest is history. Whether we wanted it or not, the cape of the world's policeman adorned our shoulders and its a mantle I think we've worn well. We've made mistakes but for the most part we've done it proud. Other nations may disagree but I think most will agree.
Thanks to Reagan, whatever you may think of him, the Berlin Wall came down and now most of the former Soviet Bloc are members of both NATO and the EU. You think those folks don't appreciate that? I visited Poland last summer and will move there in August, amd all I heard there was kudos for Ronnie.
About Ruwanda and the UN, what can I say except that the UN has been pretty much ineffective during its entire existence.
I didn't say that our president lied to us, nor do I believe he did. And I didn't advocate pulling out of Iraq because it got a little rough. All I ask is that the Iraqis pull their fair share of the load. You can't impose a so called deomocracy on people who didn't ask for one in the first place and that hasn't happened in Iraq. Again, read some history.
I agree with you on one thing. US pilots and our planes are the best in the world.
But we've strayed a little off topic with our discussion. Sorry for my rant.
Thread Starter
Closet American
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 5,851
Likes: 1
From: Vancouver, BC (Hollywood North)
Thanks to Reagan, whatever you may think of him, the Berlin Wall came down and now most of the former Soviet Bloc are members of both NATO and the EU. You think those folks don't appreciate that? I visited Poland last summer and will move there in August, amd all I heard there was kudos for Ronnie.
I WILL say that America and its policies after WWII probably did effectively SPEND the Soviet Union into the ground, however.
Benefits of a capitalistic society...
Mach 1 Member
Joined: October 28, 2004
Posts: 548
Likes: 0
FWIW, I did a tour in Vietnam as a Marine officer (dating myself-I'm 59) and I like to think I'm fairly savvy on world history and current events, and that's no knock on you.
The US is a global super power. We were isolationist up to the nearly the end of WWI and very reluctantly entered the arena. The League of Nations followed in 1919, ineffectively. We were passive in WWII until Pearl Harbor
and as they say, the rest is history. Whether we wanted it or not, the cape of the world's policeman adorned our shoulders and its a mantle I think we've worn well. We've made mistakes but for the most part we've done it proud. Other nations may disagree but I think most will agree.
Thanks to Reagan, whatever you may think of him, the Berlin Wall came down and now most of the former Soviet Bloc are members of both NATO and the EU. You think those folks don't appreciate that? I visited Poland last summer and will move there in August, amd all I heard there was kudos for Ronnie.
About Ruwanda and the UN, what can I say except that the UN has been pretty much ineffective during its entire existence.
I didn't say that our president lied to us, nor do I believe he did. And I didn't advocate pulling out of Iraq because it got a little rough. All I ask is that the Iraqis pull their fair share of the load. You can't impose a so called deomocracy on people who didn't ask for one in the first place and that hasn't happened in Iraq. Again, read some history.
I agree with you on one thing. US pilots and our planes are the best in the world.
But we've strayed a little off topic with our discussion. Sorry for my rant.
The US is a global super power. We were isolationist up to the nearly the end of WWI and very reluctantly entered the arena. The League of Nations followed in 1919, ineffectively. We were passive in WWII until Pearl Harbor
and as they say, the rest is history. Whether we wanted it or not, the cape of the world's policeman adorned our shoulders and its a mantle I think we've worn well. We've made mistakes but for the most part we've done it proud. Other nations may disagree but I think most will agree.
Thanks to Reagan, whatever you may think of him, the Berlin Wall came down and now most of the former Soviet Bloc are members of both NATO and the EU. You think those folks don't appreciate that? I visited Poland last summer and will move there in August, amd all I heard there was kudos for Ronnie.
About Ruwanda and the UN, what can I say except that the UN has been pretty much ineffective during its entire existence.
I didn't say that our president lied to us, nor do I believe he did. And I didn't advocate pulling out of Iraq because it got a little rough. All I ask is that the Iraqis pull their fair share of the load. You can't impose a so called deomocracy on people who didn't ask for one in the first place and that hasn't happened in Iraq. Again, read some history.
I agree with you on one thing. US pilots and our planes are the best in the world.
But we've strayed a little off topic with our discussion. Sorry for my rant.
It made me do alot of research on Vietnam, even to this day I read alot about that time period in the United States, I do that because those "kids" that fought in Vietnam, those that fought against us being there, are the ones that are leading our country today. Sometimes it feels like we are making some of the same mistakes all over again.
As for the Iraqi's pulling their fair share of the load, you couldn't be more right. I heard, from talking to friends that have returned from Iraq, that the Iraqi army is more than willing to do the job and they are good at it. As long as the American muscle is there with them. If there aren't any Americans involved, there usually isn't much contact, if any. I'm sure this info is a little biased, but can you argue with where it's coming from?
It just irks me the way that the politicians try to run wars. If you vote to go to war, tell the military what the objective is and let them DO it. If a political party or representative can't stomach that US soldiers and Iraqi civilians having the potential to be killed, maybe they should step back, take a moment and ask themselves if it's really worth it to send troops over there.
As for Reagan...I really believe that he was the straw that broke the camels back, so to say, with the Berlin Wall. Reagan spend SO much on defense, building up the military and instilling so much pride in Americans that the Soviets economy literally couldn't keep up. He's not the only reason that the USSR broke up, but he was a significant player.
BTW, do you mind if I ask where in Vietnam you served and who with?
GTR Member
Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 4,660
Likes: 2
From: Tampa,FL
It could take a generation or more to see the true effects of the Iraq war. surrounding countries could follow suit.We will probably be long gone before we ever know. Bush may be hated now but could be a hero a hundred years from now.Who knows. I just hope our country stays safe enough for our future generation. I believe eventually we will be non reliant on foreign oil but these things take time. I am trying to be optimistic about the whole situation otherwise life can be depressing with all the crap you hear about every day. 
I lust for a M24
Joined: November 6, 2004
Posts: 7,042
Likes: 4
From: Football HOF, Canton OH
It could take a generation or more to see the true effects of the Iraq war. surrounding countries could follow suit.We will probably be long gone before we ever know. Bush may be hated now but could be a hero a hundred years from now.Who knows. I just hope our country stays safe enough for our future generation. I believe eventually we will be non reliant on foreign oil but these things take time. I am trying to be optimistic about the whole situation otherwise life can be depressing with all the crap you hear about every day.
Cobra Member
Joined: March 14, 2004
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
First off, thank you for your duty in Vietnam. I'm too young to remember the conflict (I was born in 1970), but I'm not too young to remember how badly my uncle felt whenever the subject was brought up. Specifically, how he was treated by people other than his family.
It made me do alot of research on Vietnam, even to this day I read alot about that time period in the United States, I do that because those "kids" that fought in Vietnam, those that fought against us being there, are the ones that are leading our country today. Sometimes it feels like we are making some of the same mistakes all over again.
As for the Iraqi's pulling their fair share of the load, you couldn't be more right. I heard, from talking to friends that have returned from Iraq, that the Iraqi army is more than willing to do the job and they are good at it. As long as the American muscle is there with them. If there aren't any Americans involved, there usually isn't much contact, if any. I'm sure this info is a little biased, but can you argue with where it's coming from?
It just irks me the way that the politicians try to run wars. If you vote to go to war, tell the military what the objective is and let them DO it. If a political party or representative can't stomach that US soldiers and Iraqi civilians having the potential to be killed, maybe they should step back, take a moment and ask themselves if it's really worth it to send troops over there.
As for Reagan...I really believe that he was the straw that broke the camels back, so to say, with the Berlin Wall. Reagan spend SO much on defense, building up the military and instilling so much pride in Americans that the Soviets economy literally couldn't keep up. He's not the only reason that the USSR broke up, but he was a significant player.
BTW, do you mind if I ask where in Vietnam you served and who with?
It made me do alot of research on Vietnam, even to this day I read alot about that time period in the United States, I do that because those "kids" that fought in Vietnam, those that fought against us being there, are the ones that are leading our country today. Sometimes it feels like we are making some of the same mistakes all over again.
As for the Iraqi's pulling their fair share of the load, you couldn't be more right. I heard, from talking to friends that have returned from Iraq, that the Iraqi army is more than willing to do the job and they are good at it. As long as the American muscle is there with them. If there aren't any Americans involved, there usually isn't much contact, if any. I'm sure this info is a little biased, but can you argue with where it's coming from?
It just irks me the way that the politicians try to run wars. If you vote to go to war, tell the military what the objective is and let them DO it. If a political party or representative can't stomach that US soldiers and Iraqi civilians having the potential to be killed, maybe they should step back, take a moment and ask themselves if it's really worth it to send troops over there.
As for Reagan...I really believe that he was the straw that broke the camels back, so to say, with the Berlin Wall. Reagan spend SO much on defense, building up the military and instilling so much pride in Americans that the Soviets economy literally couldn't keep up. He's not the only reason that the USSR broke up, but he was a significant player.
BTW, do you mind if I ask where in Vietnam you served and who with?
I also spent some time on the ground with an ARVN airborne brigade near Quang Tri city-only Anerican with the brigade at the time.
legacy Tms Member
Joined: January 27, 2007
Posts: 4,617
Likes: 176
From: alerbamer
America should pioneer alternative fuels and get off burning oil for fuel altogether. Create a new economic growth industry that the world looks to America for; get ourselves out of the Middle East; and ease the stress on the environment all with one stroke.
Course people like that former CEO of Exxon/Mobile, Lee “Fat Bastard” Raymond don't want anything that cuts into their profits.
Course people like that former CEO of Exxon/Mobile, Lee “Fat Bastard” Raymond don't want anything that cuts into their profits.
Cobra Member
Joined: March 3, 2007
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 1
From: North carolina
i think we should nuke them all haha jk
why dont we just pull out fo iraq and afganastan and put a few navy seal teams in there to take the bad guys out without revealing they're there?
and if we have to go to war with china were pretty much doomed unless russia and isreal and france (not haha) help us
why dont we just pull out fo iraq and afganastan and put a few navy seal teams in there to take the bad guys out without revealing they're there?
and if we have to go to war with china were pretty much doomed unless russia and isreal and france (not haha) help us
well soon enough be living like that if we all don't get our head out of are b hinds and those Big money hungry hippo's too.
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