I respectfully disagree. Especially when the difference between the problems per 100 cars between Lexus and Lincoln was a mere .17 I believe. When it comes down to such a small difference its all symantics. I think that some of these foreign companies are doing exactly what the American car companies did in the 70's and 80's, just pump them out no matter what.

The American quality for Ford has pretty much caught up with the imports and past them IMHO. Now its time to leave them in the dust and I agree with you on that. Nothing but 100% will suffice.

The UAW is the main problem here for manufacturers I believe, not the technology. Like you said the unions stifle a lot of productivity. They always have in all industry IMO. No offense to any union workers here.

Ford actually has some of the leading assembly innovations, including a plant that can switch between multiple products in a moments notice (an industry first according the report.)

The new Mustang is a godsend, its one of the major reasons the Celica has gone the way of the dodo bird.

As for GMC, who knows whats gonna happen. I still don't see a buy out, but I'm no gypsy so I can't be certain. I think time will only tell for GMC and its subsidaries. I just don't get them, while Ford and Chrysler pick up the ball and start running with it to change things and build better cars, which they both have, GMC just seems to sit and stare at it thinking the ball will come to them.

 

Well, I assume you're not counting the Navigator in that rating, since it has one of the worst new vehicle ratings on the planet!

Navigator aside, if you put a Lincoln LS - or even the new Zephyr - beside a current Lexus GS or IS and examine the paint and finish, look at the quality of leather, slam the doors, check the attention to detail, add up the technology quotient - there's just no comparison. The Lexus is so far ahead, its embarrassing. Granted, it's also more money.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@November 14, 2005, 8:24 PM
I think that some of these foreign companies are doing exactly what the American car companies did in the 70's and 80's, just pump them out no matter what.

The American quality for Ford has pretty much caught up with the imports and past them IMHO. Now its time to leave them in the dust and I agree with you on that. Nothing but 100% will suffice.

Quoted post

Some are "just pumping them out." But that doesn't apply to Lexus. And while I think Ford has caught up with some of the import vehicles, they haven't caught up with the BEST the imports have to offer - and that's the important distinction.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@November 14, 2005, 8:24 PM
The UAW is the main problem here for manufacturers I believe, not the technology. Like you said the unions stifle a lot of productivity. They always have in all industry IMO. No offense to any union workers here.

Ford actually has some of the leading assembly innovations, including a plant that can switch between multiple products in a moments notice (an industry first according the report.)

Quoted post

Yeah, on this we definitely agree. Unions were necessary in the early part of the 20th century to protect workers' rights, but today a properly run company should be able to take care of its employees - who will in turn take care of it.

I don't question that Ford is on a path to innovation, and I applaud it and I want them to keep going. As of yet, it's not enough, though.

<!--QuoteBegin-1999 Black 35th GT@November 14, 2005, 8:24 PM
The new Mustang is a godsend, its one of the major reasons the Celica has gone the way of the dodo bird.

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Well, I'll disagree on this one. The arrival of the Mustang had nothing whatsoever to do with the demise of the Celica. The Celica was already losing its popularity against other import vehicles, primarily the Acura RSX - which along with several other Celica competitors - is still going strong.

 

Like I said. I still don't see the difference in quality. Navigator aside, Lincoln is doing really well. Don't forget that the Lexus's have a lot of quality issues with the steerable headlamps on the RX models. As for the leather quality and fit and finish I still don't see a difference and it seems from a lot of reports that they are basically on the same playing field. Lexus uses the same metal as their parent company and which is not the greatest in my opinion. Lots of deflection and corners cut in the metal. Also there is a lot of orange peel look in the Lexus's paint just like any other mass produced vehicle in the world.

Again this is my opinion and thats yours and I am not trying to start an arguement. I've sat in all kinds of vehicles and compared and I and many others see the Lincolns being of better quality. Lets leave it at that, agree to disagree on this matter and move on to the topic again. Theres no way for either of us to prove one another incorrect, its all a personal opinion and symantics.

There were many reasons the Celica was cut. And yes, probably the largest was the RSX and Civic coupe. The Mustang and Eclipse contributed largely to it too. Probably the biggest down fall was the price. Everything was an option. I know my wife had compared one when she bought her 2001 Civic new (before we met). Simple things like power windows, door locks and the like were all options on the Celica and standard on the Civic coupe for a lot less mulah.

Thats one of the many reasons when I have a customer come in comparing small cars the Focus and Sentra are usually the finalist on their list. The Golf is too pricey, the Corolla has all of its options in packages (example: the air bags are only available on the CE and not a standalone option like the Focus) and the Neon...well all they have to do is drive one and that car is out like a fat girl in dodgeball.

Yes, and unfortunatley we seem to be stuck with these unions in a lot of industry. They are a huge hinderance. Look at the huge Septa strike in Philly. The workers basically wanted more healthcare coverage but don't want to contibute to making these goals. Its a two way street to accomplish such task and unfortunatley a lot of these unions want everything to come to them.

 

Andy, Lincoln is not doing well at all. They currently have worst sales in 16 years (for comparison, in 1990 Lincoln sold 231,660 vehicles, this year they sold 93,700 vehicles). Each year since 1990 sales were down. Zephyr and new Aviator may change that, we'll see.

 

I was referring to fit, finish, quality, safety and so on not sales.

Yes the sales need to improve. The products that they had in the mid 90's were uninspiring and geared towards the older crowd compared to the newer designs of today save for the Mark VIII ( I always liked the look of those). They have come back to be a high end, high quality cars again like they used to be and they seem to be gearing towards the younger buyer again with the new Zephyr and Aviator.

 

Well, actually it's not opinion and symantics - it's quite quantifiable and provable - but as you said, we'll never agree on this, so let's just agree to disagree and hope Lincoln can pull of a hat trick in the next five years.

<!--QuoteBegin-1999 Black 35th GT@November 15, 2005, 12:05 PM
There were many reasons the Celica was cut. And yes, probably the largest was the RSX and Civic coupe. The Mustang and Eclipse contributed largely to it too. Probably the biggest down fall was the price. Everything was an option. I know my wife had compared one when she bought her 2001 Civic new (before we met). Simple things like power windows, door locks and the like were all options on the Celica and standard on the Civic coupe for a lot less mulah.

Quoted post

[/quote]
Strange, here in Canada, the Celica GTS was pretty much fully outfitted. Power windows and such were never an option. Maybe you're referring to the GT model. And they were slightly overpriced compared to an RSX Type-S, which offered slightly better performance for slightly less money. The Celica had 'love it or hate it' styling too, which hurt sales.

But they were an extremely reliable automobile.

 

The JD power data shows that the big 3 have come a long way and are almost equal to the Asians in initial quality.

The big problem is precieved quality. Because the foreign companies have had superior quality cars in the last 25 years, many people would rather buy a toyota because either they already have one and were happy with it, or want to take a trusted name brand. Just as the big 3 have tarnished their reputations with problematic cars and recalls.

IMO the big 3, and ESPECIALLY GM, built some pretty pathetic cars for a long time. Many people got burned on their purchases and swore never to buy a GM again and turn to another company (usually imports). This about it this way, if you go to a restaurant and pay for a good meal and get food poisoning, you will likely never return to that restaurant again, even if the management has changed. It is laughable to think that most people would consider cross shopping a GM again after a bad experience given that a car is your second-biggest expense.

For GM to make a comeback, they have to essentially re-invent themselves. They have to make sure that their small cars are well built and reliable as many people buy a small used car and you can attract them to your brand if the car was a good experience. They need to build exciting cars, because as the LX cars from Chrysler and the Mustang have shown, the one advantage North America has over most competitors is the ability to build a gorgeous car. A transformation like this will take many years, not months. It also depends on the competitors taking thier eye off the ball, which could happen. GM did it.

 

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to GM, I have to repeat a statement I've used before regarding them. "IT'S ABOUT THE PRODUCT STUPID!"

The Corvette aside, GM has managed to produce an unbelieveably huge fleet of ugly products. People in general especially Americans buy on visual appeal moreso probably than anything else in my opinion. If you look at practically everything they have, it's plain ugly. There are enough GM fans out there that some reliability issues will be somewhat tolerated, but ugly designs is what largely prevents the sale of cars. Toyota Corolla is a reliable car, but if you're going for performance or a real looker, you won't even give it a second thought. GM needs to redo the interiors and exteriors of their vehicles and they need to do them with some VIM and VIGOR. Make them look like NOTHING GM has done before. It's obvious that what they have now isn't selling. Why not try some clean slates.

Costs are what they are. Have some folks working on that, but that aspect alone cannot save this company.

IT'S ABOUT THE PRODUCT STUPID!!

 

I agree with most of the above two posts. Build cars people actually WANT, and they'll sell.

The trouble is, with all the systemic problems GM - and to a lesser extent Ford - are saddled with, it's hard to build exciting, quality cars that are competitive with the imports.

I'm afraid the North Americans need a new business model if they are to have any hope whatsoever of recovering. And it may have to start with being freed of the shackles known as the UAW.

Sadly, I fear they may die before they can pull off any of the above. The prognosis is certainly not encouraging.

 

Something like this is very difficult to prove in my opinion. There are so many x and y factors that need to go into it and it would not be worth our time to do so and argue so yes let's agree to disagree. It makes life so much easier and us both happy.

She was comparing price wise in which the standard Civic EX coupe to the Celica GT, which are comparable. The Celica came out another $1700 some odd dollars. And yes the styling really didn't appeal to her that much.

I do really like the Acura RSX Type S though. I had an oppurtunity to drive a customers car and it was really refined and peppy.

Alas I am getting way off topic here...

That pretty much sums it up. Thats why I try to educate customers on that aspect. A lot of people still have that 70's and 80's mentality.

 

That's called spin. Build quality is a quantifiable that savvy customers can see, touch and hear. If you doubt this, just compare an old Hyundai Pony with a new Ford F-150.

Polar ends of the spectrum, I agree, but it amply demonstrates that you can "measure" a difference in build quality between vehicles.

Sorry, but Ford just isn't there yet compared to Lexus, a fact that was proven once again yesterday:

But as you said, let's just agree to disagree.

 

Of course, I still disagree but like they say "Hineyholes and opinions, we've all got them." Yes we can certainly agree to disagree. Thats whats so great about freedom.

Got a pic of a Hyundai Pony... I've surprisingly never seen one

 

Isn't it a bit unfair to compare Ford to Lexus? Ford and Lexus are not in the same price range; and I would expect a car in a higher price range to have better quality than one in lower price range. A better comparision would be Lincoln to Lexus or Ford to Toyota:

 

Actually, I did start up by comparing Lincoln to Lexus - further up this thead - and it's STILL no comparison. Lexus is leaps and bounds ahead of Lincoln by most consumer/customer/press surveys and reviews.

As to the Toyota recall you just quoted, yeah, it's a bonafide recall, but I don't think headlight switches equate to fire risks.

 

I agree with most posts about this topic and would like to add some thoughts of my own regarding what Ford can do to avoid completely down the path of GM. 1) Do not, as has been suggested elsewhere, abandon the small car / "low end" of the market. How do you think the Japanese came to dominate? Sure, this segment is hotly contested and the room for profit is small, yet this can cement your reputation for (perceived) quality among buyers - especially first-time buyers. Give them a great product, and they'll come back for either the next-gen model or aspire to "step up" to a more uplevel product in the lineup. 2) Adapt to changing markets/consumer demand more quickly - don't bank on the same old thing to bail you out or get by until the next hot vehicle comes along. 3) Work more closely with your suppliers during the design and production of vehicles. Keep a tighter rein on quality control to avoid things like the Five Hundred/Montego snafu - especially with first-year model rollout. 4) Update platforms and powertrains more often along the lines of the Japanese product cycle. Why do the Mazda 3, Volvo S40, and Euro-spec Focus get the new chassis, while the US gets the privilege of the first-gen chassis? Competing simply on cost doesn't cut it these days. Example, who would choose a Cavalier over a Civic if the buyer could afford the Honda? (don't mean to offend any Cavalier owners out there, but that car is crap.) Aaaand... 5) Don't build boring cars!

 

Yeah, I think that's all pretty astute.

I'm not certain if Ford's quality problems are a "lowest bidder supply chain" issue, a UAW issue, a "fat cat executive" issue, a poor business model issue (actually encompassing the aforementioned) or if they're just cutting corners cause they don't have the cash right now.

Most likely, it's a combination of them all.

I love the new Mustang, but there are sooooo many examples of cost cutting, it's tragic. One great example that "springs" to mind is the fact that the front passenger seat doesn't "spring" forward at all when trying to access the back seat. It's a little thing but very inconvenient. Heck, even my 20 year-old Toyota had that...20 YEARS AGO!!

By and large I would say the domestic automakers are about 10 to 15 years behind the state-of-the-art models from Japan. Now, Japanese cars from 10 to 15 years ago were very reliable and well made, which prompts everyone to want to congratuate domestics for such improved quality...and they are improved, no doubt about it.

It's just that compared to the Japanese, we're only half way down the straightaway, while they're crossing the finish line.

 

Ford needs a cavalier. Some cheap car that appeals to the masses. The Focus is a bit too much. I don't want Ford to go Scion style on this. Just cheap, reliable transportation. Is that too much to ask?!

 

Yes! cheap or afFORDable, not cheap junk. Remember the Aspire? what a disaster - did anyone really want to "aspire" to that? (I would have taken a Festiva anyday (SHOGUN edition! ) Maybe Ford could find a way to bring or build a car similar to the Ka, Fiesta, or Puma for the US market to fill this need. I happen to like small (mini) cars and the ones I see in the Euro car mags look interesting. Plus, the other Japanese manufacturers plan to sell their own in response to Scion's good reception in the US.
Hopefully, Ford will pay more attention to quality if they take this step. "Cheap, reliable transportation." - that's what the Japanese delivered and the Koreans are catching up to faster than the US automakers... be afraid - Hyundai is developing a V8 engine and rear-drive platform. (Don't laugh, check out GT4 for a mid-engine Korean sports car that uses Ford's 4.6 V8, I've also seen it in car mags.)

 

Let's try and keep this conversation about GM's problems

Who thinks all these plant closures will help turn things out for GM?

I for one don't think they do enough work, they still have thaosands of people in the job banks and have to update their mainstream models

 

ok then, back to GM. The plant closures and job cuts announced by GM are extreme measures - who could've imagined? Kind of like what Mr. Ghosn did to turn Nissan around. maybe GM's brass hope it'll have the same effect for GM that it did for Nissan. however unlike Nissan, GM doesn't appear to have many new vehicles scheduled for the near future that promise to be hits with the consumer. 2007 MY (full-size, gas-guzzling - hybrid or not) SUV's? - yawn. New fwd Impala? - uhh... The good stuff like the Solstice or Sky will be produced in too few numbers to carry the whole company. Maybe GM has to get more drastic with its approach to building cars since these steps are meant to just keep their doors open.