Hello guys, my name is Alex and I'm a Volt-a-holic...
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"the car is going to sticker at 43k- 7500 of our grandchildrens collective tax dollars..."
First off, it starts at 41K, and secondly, where were you when a tax break for work trucks had a loophole that was abused to buy Hummer H2's?
First off, it starts at 41K, and secondly, where were you when a tax break for work trucks had a loophole that was abused to buy Hummer H2's?
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New technology is always expensive, and the price will come down over time. That's just how it is. DVD players were expensive at one point, now they're like $25. LCD TV's were expensive at one point, now they're affordable. etc. etc.
Bob Lutz said a while ago that he thinks 40K is the break-even point, and with all the tech and standard equipment in the Volt, it's believeable.
I have no clue how Nissan is selling the Leaf at 33K. They have to be taking a bath on each one sold.
My other point still stands, though. If people are outraged over tax breaks for electric vehicles, where was the outrage over tax breaks for Escalades?
Bob Lutz said a while ago that he thinks 40K is the break-even point, and with all the tech and standard equipment in the Volt, it's believeable.
I have no clue how Nissan is selling the Leaf at 33K. They have to be taking a bath on each one sold.
My other point still stands, though. If people are outraged over tax breaks for electric vehicles, where was the outrage over tax breaks for Escalades?
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Well for me its not so much that its a tax break for an electric vehicle, but that its a tax break to buy a vehicle from a company that we already gave $50 billion and still own over 60% of.
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I'm pretty confident that GM wants to avoid that PR mess again, they got raked over the coals over the way they handled the EV1, and they aren't ready to repeat that mistake.
Rather B. Blown, I see your point, I'll just agree to disagree. I should note, though, that the $7500 tax break is for all EV's, not just the Volt. I'm certain it'll apply to the Focus BEV when that comes out.
Rather B. Blown, I see your point, I'll just agree to disagree. I should note, though, that the $7500 tax break is for all EV's, not just the Volt. I'm certain it'll apply to the Focus BEV when that comes out.
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The problem with the electric car is that it ultimately is judged in the market place. In order to win in the market place you must be better or cheaper or both. If government decides to push electric vehicles with tax breaks, this still does not change the fact that after that tax break you still need to be better or cheaper to win a share. Any company making EV's though cannot fully rely on the government tax break as a certainty to gain a foot hold. If you want to sell these cars you have to give people a reason to buy them. And so far the only a couple of people here, all be it a Mustang forum, have expressed any interest at all.
I understand we need R&D and options in the future. Especially in advance of the next oil crisis, but until the market forces changes, like the waiting list to buy Priuses during the last oil spike, then people will buy what will perform and what they deem is the best value. It's the customers' choice. Unless you intend to remove choice from the equation and we all have to drive vehicles that get 50mpg which CAFE standards are a way of doing just that.
I understand we need R&D and options in the future. Especially in advance of the next oil crisis, but until the market forces changes, like the waiting list to buy Priuses during the last oil spike, then people will buy what will perform and what they deem is the best value. It's the customers' choice. Unless you intend to remove choice from the equation and we all have to drive vehicles that get 50mpg which CAFE standards are a way of doing just that.
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I was just reading more about the Volt, and saw something that I haven't found an answer for.
So that means that it will be at least 2012 before people in most states will be able to buy one. Unless, they travel a state where they are available. And if you do that, will dealers in your state where they are not sold yet be equipped and trained to service it and fix any problems (which there are bound to be with something so new) or will you have to take it back to a state where they are sold?
Also, it appears that there is an income cap on being able to claim the tax credit. Does anybody know how much that is?
Over the first 18 months, the car will initially be available to Chevrolet customers in California, New York, Michigan, Connecticut, Texas, New Jersey and the Washington, D.C., area. A nationwide rollout will start later.
Also, it appears that there is an income cap on being able to claim the tax credit. Does anybody know how much that is?
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The problem with the electric car is that it ultimately is judged in the market place. In order to win in the market place you must be better or cheaper or both. If government decides to push electric vehicles with tax breaks, this still does not change the fact that after that tax break you still need to be better or cheaper to win a share. Any company making EV's though cannot fully rely on the government tax break as a certainty to gain a foot hold. If you want to sell these cars you have to give people a reason to buy them. And so far the only a couple of people here, all be it a Mustang forum, have expressed any interest at all.
I understand we need R&D and options in the future. Especially in advance of the next oil crisis, but until the market forces changes, like the waiting list to buy Priuses during the last oil spike, then people will buy what will perform and what they deem is the best value. It's the customers' choice. Unless you intend to remove choice from the equation and we all have to drive vehicles that get 50mpg which CAFE standards are a way of doing just that.
I understand we need R&D and options in the future. Especially in advance of the next oil crisis, but until the market forces changes, like the waiting list to buy Priuses during the last oil spike, then people will buy what will perform and what they deem is the best value. It's the customers' choice. Unless you intend to remove choice from the equation and we all have to drive vehicles that get 50mpg which CAFE standards are a way of doing just that.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/09/06/leaked...s-of-peak-oil/
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I don't think the marketplace will be the deciding factor in acceptance of the electric car.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/09/06/leaked...s-of-peak-oil/
http://gm-volt.com/2010/09/06/leaked...s-of-peak-oil/
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Being from a green State with ample hydro I can tell you - solar and wind farms only provide about 1-2% of current demand. They lose a tremendous amount during transmission. And because they are so sporadic, they have caused great difficulties for managing a constant flow of juice. Dam operators are having to scale back when there's tons of wind, then suddenly ramp up the turbines when the wind stops. Easy to do you say?
Enter salmon management. They can't just flip a switch without consequences to aquatic life in the river. Then you get the morons that are removing dams throughout the west (4 in N CA on the Klamath River, 3 or 4 in S OR on the Rogue River. They are producing fine but the greenies and downriver Tribes want them gone. [What's wrong with fish ladders?
]). So hyrdo would be great but its not going to expand any further from where it is because of fish.Then you have the problem of massive wind farms that not only wreck tourism dollars in rural areas, but you have massive raptor kills that are going to cause other problems when rodents and varmints over breed because of not enough natural predators.
If - IF - the country goes massive ev, it will overload the already weak & maxed out system. Solar tech is not far enough along although I have often questioned why Obama's "stimulous" didn't have homeowners and building owners layin out panels on a massive scale. Why? Because the effectiveness is not advanced enough and the cost remains out of reach.
Personally, I think the answer is in the ocean. IF enough scientists focus on unlocking that limitless supply of H2O, they could produce fuel for vehicles and fresh water for growing food.
So until they get serious about producing electricity, ev's are just novelty vehicles for city dwellers. The Prius is surprisingly popular out here in this rural area but that is only because it has a gas engine.
Last edited by cdynaco; Sep 8, 2010 at 09:07 PM.
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Here's a quick read on the complexity of wind v hydro:
Wind surge poses a risk to salmon and reveals flaws in BPA's power-regulating system
With Columbia Gorge turbines pumping out extra electricity, the agency had to quickly adjust its hydro generation
Saturday, July 05, 2008 GAIL KINSEY HILL
The Oregonian Staff
Columbia Basin river managers had a close call this week when they were forced to cut back on hydropower after a surge in wind energy blasted through the system.
The surge forced them to spill more water over dams, risking the health of migrating fish. For the first time, it also exposed serious kinks in a plan that was supposed to deal smoothly with just such emergencies.
As it turned out, the spills weren't heavy enough to harm fish. But the federal Bonneville Power Administration admitted that confusion and missteps by the agency and wind-farm operators marred proper handling of the situation.
"It was a wake-up call," said Brian Silverstein, a BPA transmission vice president.
Wind energy has grown dramatically in the Columbia River Gorge the past several years. Though touted as a clean and renewable resource, it also has increased stress on the hydropower system, which is used to balance wind's variability.
Problems began Monday afternoon when wind speeds jumped far beyond levels forecast by wind-farm operators. BPA, responsible for adjusting hydro generation to accommodate the wind, realized by evening that it could no longer handle the sustained surge without increasing spills to dangerous levels
Generally, spills are needed to help juvenile salmon make their way downriver. But too much water can prove lethal.
Following guidelines, BPA power managers began calling wind-farm operators about 7 p.m. with orders to dump the excess wind. It was the first time the agency has made such requests.
Calls to several wind-farm managers reached only answering machines, though dispatchers are supposed to be available around the clock. A dispatcher at another wind farm answered and reduced its generation. BPA declined to disclose the company's name.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...170.xml&coll=7
With Columbia Gorge turbines pumping out extra electricity, the agency had to quickly adjust its hydro generation
Saturday, July 05, 2008 GAIL KINSEY HILL
The Oregonian Staff
Columbia Basin river managers had a close call this week when they were forced to cut back on hydropower after a surge in wind energy blasted through the system.
The surge forced them to spill more water over dams, risking the health of migrating fish. For the first time, it also exposed serious kinks in a plan that was supposed to deal smoothly with just such emergencies.
As it turned out, the spills weren't heavy enough to harm fish. But the federal Bonneville Power Administration admitted that confusion and missteps by the agency and wind-farm operators marred proper handling of the situation.
"It was a wake-up call," said Brian Silverstein, a BPA transmission vice president.
Wind energy has grown dramatically in the Columbia River Gorge the past several years. Though touted as a clean and renewable resource, it also has increased stress on the hydropower system, which is used to balance wind's variability.
Problems began Monday afternoon when wind speeds jumped far beyond levels forecast by wind-farm operators. BPA, responsible for adjusting hydro generation to accommodate the wind, realized by evening that it could no longer handle the sustained surge without increasing spills to dangerous levels
Generally, spills are needed to help juvenile salmon make their way downriver. But too much water can prove lethal.
Following guidelines, BPA power managers began calling wind-farm operators about 7 p.m. with orders to dump the excess wind. It was the first time the agency has made such requests.
Calls to several wind-farm managers reached only answering machines, though dispatchers are supposed to be available around the clock. A dispatcher at another wind farm answered and reduced its generation. BPA declined to disclose the company's name.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...170.xml&coll=7
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The marketplace decides all. Its like nature. Those that are fit will survive and those that need bailing out will get help from the government.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
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The marketplace decides all. Its like nature. Those that are fit will survive and those that need bailing out will get help from the government.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
As for the last part, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Last edited by Rather B.Blown; Sep 8, 2010 at 08:25 PM.
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The marketplace decides all. Its like nature. Those that are fit will survive and those that need bailing out will get help from the government.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
Even in the age of 'peak oil' the market place will pick the replacement. Socialists never get that. People vote with their wallets. You can influence them unduly with your regulation and laws, you can spend millions on propaganda, but you can't force people to buy the car you want them to buy in a free society.
As long as we are free at least.
I mean apparently you can force somebody to buy healthcare, so maybe you can. Force them to buy a Yugo with an electric motor.
Will it be electric, like the Nissan Leaf or Focus BEV? Plug-in electric hybrids, like the Volt, Fisker Karma or Escape Hybrid? Something else? It's not a matter of if, but when. And free markets will make sure that the price of gas goes through the roof eventually, no?
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I understand. But long distance mobility is key. That's why Bob Brinker & Dr. Bill Wattenburg have been harping that with the glut of nat gas, government and corporate fleets should be converting to ng vehicles. But as usual, government turns a deaf ear to smart minds, and then the greenies block everything just for the sake of their mantra - even though some of their ideas are moronic.
Here's a quick read on the complexity of wind v hydro:
Here's a quick read on the complexity of wind v hydro:
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Originally Posted by cdynaco
Personally, I think the answer is in the ocean. IF enough scientists focus on unlocking that limitless supply of H2O, they could produce fuel for vehicles and fresh water for growing food.
With nuclear being our most advanced and cheapest/most secure method of producing electricity, that could not only provide the added juice for the ev chooser, but also provide enough power for facilities to covert water into hydrogen for hv's (because currently with today's incomplete technology, it takes more juice to make than what you get out of it (JUST LIKE ETHANOL!).
New tech reactors (along with current and unfolding technologies) could provide the energy to support city folk ev's and trains, but also a new era of hydrogen fueled vehicles for those that need extended portability, and for transportation of people and goods...