Gabe

Dude, if you think so much of the new Camaro, why don't you just buy one?

You're on a Mustang forum, most of the people on here despise the Camaro and always have, regardless of how much better it might perform.

Through the '90s and until the Camaro was put out of its slow-selling misery in 2002-2003/whenever, the Camaro was always a better-performing car, quicker 0-60, 1/4-mile times, etc.
But they always sold fewer than the Mustang, which lead to this:




GM brought back the whale of a Camaro for the 2010 year, and once again it performed OK, but a year later the Mustang got the 5.0 and started spanking it.
Meanwhile Camaro was heavy and had a hideous interior.

Looks are always in the eye of the beholder, and I think it's still hideous for 2016, inside and out.
I couldn't care less if they gave it the older 505hp Z06 engine as the standard offering, I still wouldn't consider one.

With all the work Ford is doing in aluminum on the trucks, you don't think some of that is gonna trickle down to the Mustang?
Yes, I hope it will happen for the S550's next immediate refresh, although I'm not holding my breath.

Engine-wise, I'm one of the people that was thinking that Ford was gonna pull again for the new model what they pulled in 2010, when they had a new body but a carry-over engine with 15 more hp.
2015 = new body with carry-over engine with 15 more hp.

Then we found out that the engine is now forged and people are boosting the crap out of them everywhere ...
Will there be direct injection and a nice power bump soon?
It would be nice. The 5.0 was certainly designed with DI in mind.
One thing I do NOT wanna see, the 5.2 engine out of the GT350 to become the GT engine.
That's a nice engine for that model, it should stay there.
The 5.0 is a big enough engine, it needs to have more stroke so it puts out more torque, but other than that, it's a great engine.

The 5.4 32V V8 in my GF's Shelby is a torque monster, and not just since we upgraded the blower ... if Ford could stroke the Coyote and gain about 40-50 ft-lbs of torque, how freakin nice would that be?

Also, you compare the new SS with the GT350.
Do you really think that for the 4,000 or so buyers that will be lucky enough to snag a GT350 every year, at the mark-ups that they're gonna be "blessed" with, the Camaro is even a consideration?
I doubt it.
Some of the buyers will be M3 owners, some will be Mustang owners, some will be Mercedez/Audi owners ... and some might even be Corvette owners.
Point is, it's a car that will attract buyers from all over, and there's a tiny amount of them that's gonna be made, so Ford will certainly not have ANY problems moving them.


.

GT_Dave

Interesting comparison on the Z28 / GT350
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...nd-camaro-z28/


Nice torque curve on that 16 valve 7 liter

laserred38

I'll never buy a Camaro, nor be a fan of it, but yes, it has me a little worried for Ford. Its numbers are GT350 territory and they blow the current GT out of the water.

That said, our cars are much faster than 90% of anything you'll see on the road, and in my case, no matter how fast your car is, we'll still be inching along in SF Bay Area traffic, so it's a waste of hp.

Still, it's disappointing to have such high hopes for the GT350, and then out of nowhere the base SS is neck and neck. Ford has always been behind Chevy when it comes to performance though. This is nothing new. I just hope Ford's response isn't some knee jerk reaction like dropping the 5.0 altogether and investing in the 3.5TT V6 to go after BMW or some crap like that.

MRGTX

Gabe, great post and good perspective all around...based on that history, it's entirely possible that the Mustang will keep selling well regardless of how it stacks up on paper.

As for the question, I MIGHT buy a Camaro SS.
My 2011 GT is paid for and tons of fun...and so far, I'm inclined to keep it a least until the S550 refresh comes along...but currently the Camaro is certainly shaping up to be a better car and the idea of stepping back into something that has incredible performance out of the box and a brand new car warranty, etc. is very appealing.

As far as the "image" of these cars go, the idea of a Camaro makes me gag a little bit but that's purely based on associations that may or may not be valid.

Scothew

Please excuse some of the staff, they are still pissed at me for my purchase and involvement with the camaro franchise.

laserred38

If you can stomach the looks, interior design and stigma of owning a Camaro, I would not blame you for buying one based on performance.

Still, I hate the way they look, hate how most of their owners modify them, and hate the interior design. At our local cars and coffee the Camaro guys are the worst. They talk the most crap, don't try to get along, and the majority of them do such tasteless/tacky mods. There's a few tacky Mustangs that show up too, but for the most part, we keep our cars classy looking. The Camaros either have Knightrider scanning LEDs in their hood scoop, chrome trim, or nasty ill-fitting vinyl graphics, or all of the above.

SpectreH

I've seen my share of tacky Mustangs around where I live, but the tacky Camaros (is that redundant?) for outnumber them. There's a ZL1 near my building at work with tacky front plate, personalized rear plate, and an assortment of tacky chrome add-ons. I like all of the current crop of performance cars, but I think the Mustang still looks best - whether an S-197 or S-550. Even if the '16 Camaro is faster from the factory than the '16 Mustang, all bets are off once you start modding them.

tom281

There is always someone or something faster.

laserred38

Yep...

Gabe

In my case, it's on the other side of the garage



.

Stage_3

Pretty much the only Camaros I would buy would be a first or second gen.
Not to say that I am a Ford fanboy, because I am not and I have owned 2 Camaros in the past. But, you have to make "you" happy. If that's what you want,.....get it.
I LOVE the Hellcat power and torque, but in all honesty, I'm not crazy about the body style at all. I will say out of the three pony cars,......the Mustang looks the best, followed by the Challenger, then the Camaro.
Good luck!

tom281

Yep!

2k7gtcs

I owned an 88 or maybe it was an 86

Came to me by marriage

Flaming piece of ****

laserred38

I didn't realize gay marriage was legal in Texas back then...

2k7gtcs

Only in certain parts of Austin

tom281

Hell I owned a 71 SS396 (402) that I loved.


But I wouldn't buy a new one.

laserred38

Figures...

bob

Ford would be better off figuring out how to get the cost down on the 5.2 block used in the Shelby and slapping cross plane crank in there


That would put the engine right around the 450 hp mark on displacement alone and the increased bore would allow larger valves or improve the unshrouding on a smaller valve size.


But the real advantage would be the added power under the curve. That's the beauty of GM's LS and LT engines. The added displacement does wonders for power in the low and mid range while offering good peak power even if it takes a liter or more of displacement to get that peak number.


Besides the Voodoo V8 is making 526 hp on a 12:1 compression ratio and port injection which is about half a point higher in compression than what GM is doing with its new LT engines and direct injection with the added bonus that the Ford engines don't suffer from increased particulate emissions which is DI's "dirty" little secret.

bob

In order to maintain a 5 liter displacement increasing the stroke would require a correspondingly smaller bore and one of the reasons the Coyote trumps even the prior 4v MOD motors is the larger bore. Besides its a misnomer that increasing the stroke builds torque.


It does in the sense that it shifts the torque curve lower in the RPM range all things being equal but a bigger bore will yield better overall results as breathing is improved relative to the original bore size again all things being equal.


When people talk about longer strokes increasing torque they are essentially talking about added displacement. If you swap bore for stroke to maintain a given displacement the corresponding reduction in piston surface area also decreases the amount of force transmitted to the lever arm on the crank. Not to mention the increased angularity that would occur if say the same deck height were maintained to keep the overall height of the engine down which increases drag on the engine further diminishing the advantage of an increased stroke.


Setup as identically as possible a 4.6 based 5.0 stroker will be a couple points down on power compared to a Coyote 5.0 despite having a longer throw on the crank for the reasons I've mentioned (smaller bore, longer stroke and worse rod/stroke ratio < increased angularity> )

Gabe

I would actually still be really interested in a stroked Coyote, 5.xx displacement.
Leave the bore as is and add some stroke.
I'd love to see what could come of that.
I bet that 500+ hp N/A would easily be attainable, with some worked heads/cams, a CJ intake and a big TB