Death of Ford?
6/8/05, 01:40 PM
#62
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Originally posted by Fordracing200@June 8, 2005, 1:39 PM
Zoran, i thought u didnt like your mustang?
Zoran, i thought u didnt like your mustang?
6/8/05, 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Red Star@June 8, 2005, 1:13 PM
scoring good at crash tests does not mean that car is a good car.
scoring good at crash tests does not mean that car is a good car.
6/8/05, 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Red Star@June 8, 2005, 2:43 PM
I said that? Sorry, I was drunk that night.
I said that? Sorry, I was drunk that night.
6/8/05, 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by 1999 Black 35th GT@June 8, 2005, 10:45 AM
Sadly for you Robert I DO know what I am talking about. Sales figures don't make a vehicle reliable buddy! :nono:
Maybe if you had kept up with CR a little more accuratley you would have noticed that they are currently in the process of retracting toyo's "good" ratings for the camry, corolla, and tacoma due to poor crash test and roolover test for the tacoma.
Then theres the recalls for the 05 tundra already here is one:
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detail...D=1118247896134 :notnice:
Oh and if you check CR further you will see that there have not been any for the 05 F-150.
And the recalls for 880,000 toyota trucks and suvs due to ball joint failure (once again see below:
:notnice:
But I assume from your quip that you hadn't read that.
Then theres the Prius:
:notnice:
Ooops. Let me guess, you didn't read that one either right?
Oh and let me remind you that I am also volunteer firefighter and still fondly remember how toyo stalled for 2 years to release extrication specs to emergency services in the US saying they were trade secrets. Hmmm interesting, no?
So if if you are correct by your statement that would make GM the best and most reliable car company in the world. As we all know they are not. :notnice:
Satisfaction rates have been dropping lately for toyo's too. And if you don't believe how about 3 mechanics that I know who have all worked on toyo's and would not suggest buying newer ones. 2 of them work at their own shop and work on all kinds of vehicles. One of them (Dave) even owns an older late 80's toyo pickup which is a very good vehicle, so he is not biased at all!!!
Don't believe them, how about my brother in law who loves toyo and nissan. He even works at a toyo dealership but says he would not touch a new one of he was given one. Hmm... See a trend going yet?
Or perhaps the tercel that stranded my family and I numerous times, once even on the Tapanzee bridge (a big bridge in NYC, not a fun experience there!)
Or the icing on the cake, the echo my buddy has (or should I say had ) that lost brake power numerous times on the highway, sometimes would not shift higher than second gear, and worst of all sometimes would just plain stall out!!! It was an automatice just in case you were wondering about the stalling. You know what the toyo dealer told him complained? "Oh yeah, we've some complaints about that, but its fixed now." Yeah its really fixed when it happens again and again!
Just because you sell more does not make you better and safer. Thats like saying that selling crack is a better and safer job than say working at a bank because you make more money. Please, don't even bother trying to justify that!
My advice to you is to research more than 2 places and get actual owners, mechanics, and other contacts accounts before you open mouth and insert foot!
Sadly for you Robert I DO know what I am talking about. Sales figures don't make a vehicle reliable buddy! :nono:
Maybe if you had kept up with CR a little more accuratley you would have noticed that they are currently in the process of retracting toyo's "good" ratings for the camry, corolla, and tacoma due to poor crash test and roolover test for the tacoma.
Then theres the recalls for the 05 tundra already here is one:
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detail...D=1118247896134 :notnice:
Oh and if you check CR further you will see that there have not been any for the 05 F-150.
And the recalls for 880,000 toyota trucks and suvs due to ball joint failure (once again see below:
:notnice:
But I assume from your quip that you hadn't read that.
Then theres the Prius:
:notnice:
Ooops. Let me guess, you didn't read that one either right?
Oh and let me remind you that I am also volunteer firefighter and still fondly remember how toyo stalled for 2 years to release extrication specs to emergency services in the US saying they were trade secrets. Hmmm interesting, no?
So if if you are correct by your statement that would make GM the best and most reliable car company in the world. As we all know they are not. :notnice:
Satisfaction rates have been dropping lately for toyo's too. And if you don't believe how about 3 mechanics that I know who have all worked on toyo's and would not suggest buying newer ones. 2 of them work at their own shop and work on all kinds of vehicles. One of them (Dave) even owns an older late 80's toyo pickup which is a very good vehicle, so he is not biased at all!!!
Don't believe them, how about my brother in law who loves toyo and nissan. He even works at a toyo dealership but says he would not touch a new one of he was given one. Hmm... See a trend going yet?
Or perhaps the tercel that stranded my family and I numerous times, once even on the Tapanzee bridge (a big bridge in NYC, not a fun experience there!)
Or the icing on the cake, the echo my buddy has (or should I say had
) that lost brake power numerous times on the highway, sometimes would not shift higher than second gear, and worst of all sometimes would just plain stall out!!! It was an automatice just in case you were wondering about the stalling. You know what the toyo dealer told him complained? "Oh yeah, we've some complaints about that, but its fixed now." Yeah its really fixed when it happens again and again!Just because you sell more does not make you better and safer. Thats like saying that selling crack is a better and safer job than say working at a bank because you make more money. Please, don't even bother trying to justify that!
My advice to you is to research more than 2 places and get actual owners, mechanics, and other contacts accounts before you open mouth and insert foot!
Take sales figures out of the equation then (you know, the one where Toyota is gaining sales and Ford is losing them).
Take the fact that Ford and GM stocks have been reduced to junk bond status out of the equation then.
Take the fact that Toyota is now the number two automaker out of the equation then.
Take the fact that JD Powers still lists Toyota/Lexus as having the highest customer satisfaction index then.
Take the fact that the current issue of Consumer Reports SHOWS Toyotas with a high perponderance of "Recommended Buys" and RED CIRCLES (indicating "Much Greater Than Average Reliability") vs. Ford's perponderance of BLACK CIRCLES (indicating "Much Worse Than Average Reliability") out of the equation then.
Take the fact that a simple comparison of fit & finish between Toyota/Lexus and ANY North American brand will quickly reveal which make is better to any trained eye then.
Take the fact that a friend of mine who sells Toyotas is repeatedly being told by his customers that they will NEVER buy another North American brand again because they were nothing but trouble then...
...and what are we left with?
Your fantasy rant.
And if you ACTUALLY want to compare Toyota's volume of recalls with the North American brands' volume of recalls, well, that's a little like Satan calling the Pope a sinner, isn't it?
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
6/8/05, 06:13 PM
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6/8/05, 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by 68notch@June 8, 2005, 7:16 PM
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
6/8/05, 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by 68notch@June 8, 2005, 6:16 PM
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
Try again, bubba. It's impossible to own me. -_-
6/8/05, 11:27 PM
#69
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This is seriously the most logical forum argument I have ever seen. Geez I come here lookin for a fight and it's like 2 brits reading short stories to eachother.
(btw i say brits as in more sophisticated people not in a slanderous way )
(btw i say brits as in more sophisticated people not in a slanderous way
)
6/9/05, 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by Robert@June 8, 2005, 11:50 PM
You mean just like how the North American automakers are getting owned by the Asian imports?
Try again, bubba. It's impossible to own me. -_-
You mean just like how the North American automakers are getting owned by the Asian imports?
Try again, bubba. It's impossible to own me. -_-
6/9/05, 07:58 AM
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Here's a simple test for you:
Take sales figures out of the equation then (you know, the one where Toyota is gaining sales and Ford is losing them).
Take the fact that Ford and GM stocks have been reduced to junk bond status out of the equation then.
Take the fact that Toyota is now the number two automaker out of the equation then.
Take the fact that JD Powers still lists Toyota/Lexus as having the highest customer satisfaction index then.
Take the fact that the current issue of Consumer Reports SHOWS Toyotas with a high perponderance of "Recommended Buys" and RED CIRCLES (indicating "Much Greater Than Average Reliability") vs. Ford's perponderance of BLACK CIRCLES (indicating "Much Worse Than Average Reliability") out of the equation then.
Take the fact that a simple comparison of fit & finish between Toyota/Lexus and ANY North American brand will quickly reveal which make is better to any trained eye then.
Take the fact that a friend of mine who sells Toyotas is repeatedly being told by his customers that they will NEVER buy another North American brand again because they were nothing but trouble then...
...and what are we left with?
Your fantasy rant.
And if you ACTUALLY want to compare Toyota's volume of recalls with the North American brands' volume of recalls, well, that's a little like Satan calling the Pope a sinner, isn't it?
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Take sales figures out of the equation then (you know, the one where Toyota is gaining sales and Ford is losing them).
Take the fact that Ford and GM stocks have been reduced to junk bond status out of the equation then.
Take the fact that Toyota is now the number two automaker out of the equation then.
Take the fact that JD Powers still lists Toyota/Lexus as having the highest customer satisfaction index then.
Take the fact that the current issue of Consumer Reports SHOWS Toyotas with a high perponderance of "Recommended Buys" and RED CIRCLES (indicating "Much Greater Than Average Reliability") vs. Ford's perponderance of BLACK CIRCLES (indicating "Much Worse Than Average Reliability") out of the equation then.
Take the fact that a simple comparison of fit & finish between Toyota/Lexus and ANY North American brand will quickly reveal which make is better to any trained eye then.
Take the fact that a friend of mine who sells Toyotas is repeatedly being told by his customers that they will NEVER buy another North American brand again because they were nothing but trouble then...
...and what are we left with?
Your fantasy rant.
And if you ACTUALLY want to compare Toyota's volume of recalls with the North American brands' volume of recalls, well, that's a little like Satan calling the Pope a sinner, isn't it?
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
You can have your opinions, and frankly I don't care what brand of vehicle you buy, thats up to you. Remember though, you ARE on a Ford based site whether you like it or not.
Now,
I'm talking about SAFETY and RELIABILITY!
So failing a side crash test is okay then huh? Well then you go right ahead and pack your family into a failed vehicle. And don't tell me that you know more than the NHTSA genius. BUT if for some reason something happens don't come crying! I'll chose to put mine in a safer vehicle.
Once again I asked you to get more than 2 sources but all you could do is rehash the two sources you already had. Oh and for your beloved CR, they are in the process of changing their "best buy" status of the corolla, camry, and tacoma. They do change things "bubba."
And speaking of changes if your oh so beloved company is doing so well then why did they get ousted by Subaru on reliablity. This information is care of your CR.
And then why has Ford risen up the ladder huh? Be as ignorant as you want but changes are coming.
Take also the fact that your so called "source" is a toyota dealer. Well that just speaks loads of unbiased opinions doesn't it
You notice mine weren't. Another fault of your arguement.What you need to do is remove the rose colored glasses you are currently wearing and look at the real world. Where in any of my post did I state that Ford did not have any recalls, I didn't, because every company does! They ARE safer vehicles though and I and many other people stand by that.
Once again, I will reiterate that changes do NOT happen overnight as you may think in your feeble attempt at a comeback.
Oh and since you are so focused on sales, guess what!!! The celica and echo are discontinued to *gasp* poor sales! And there aren't any replacements!
Wow, who saw that coming So take those facts into context and my rant is quite accomplished. Oh and don't forget to add in those infamous voluntary recalls toyo does. Doesn't really make them look too good now does it, hmmm?
Oh and just a word to the wise, the Pope was a sinner, IMO. He condoned covering up and assisting the priest who sexually abused children. (I hope I don't offend anyone with this comment as my father is a minister, just my opinion)
You know what Robert your test was quite simple. And I aced it
QUOTE(Robert @ June 8, 2005, 11:50 PM)
You mean just like how the North American automakers are getting owned by the Asian imports?
Try again, bubba. It's impossible to own me.
Whatever you say, ace.
You mean just like how the North American automakers are getting owned by the Asian imports?
Try again, bubba. It's impossible to own me.
Whatever you say, ace.
6/9/05, 09:35 AM
#74
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As for your comment to 68notch for you not being able to be owned, I'll let the consensus speak for that:
<!--QuoteBegin-Fordracing200@June 8, 2005, 10:30 PM
[/quote]
Oh by the way this was from the "Oil sludge problems" with the 2003 camry's. It was in papers around the states:
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
http://consumeraffairs.com/news02/toyota_sludge.html
I also asked one of my coworkers about this. His son had a 2003 camry and was unfortunate enough to have oil problems. He spent nearly $5000 into the engine. You know what toyo told him "It's your fault!" He had to contest this for nearly a year before being compensated for their error. Since he has sold the camry and has a Subaru Legacy.
Plus 5 recalls this year so far:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../C01-186791.htm
This will be the sixth this year:
The avalon:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.d.../505240301/1003
I am by no means saying that American car manufacturers do not have their problems either, but what I am saying is that you give toyo way too much credibility Robert. :nono:
They are suffering from numerous problems this year and will have had 6 recalls across the board on their vehicles in just over six months. You keep referring to CR and JD Powers rating. What you don't seem to realize is that those ratings are for the 2004 year not 2005 which is what we are mostly discussing. (Besides of course the fact of the 2003 camry problems and the 2000 echo issues) Also you can't simply go by 2 sources. You need to broaden your horizens on the issue. Listen to what real owners have said and complained about, not always an editor behind a desk. I understand CR goes by consumers, but they do not represent everyone. From my experiences in and around cars, toyo has not rated well at all
I do not JUST buy Ford products either, I have owned Subaru, and Honda, and currently Oldsmobile too. But from all of my experiences, I prefer Ford over all of the companies I have owned. I have had no problems whatsoever and will continue to stand by them, as will many of us here.
'Nuff said! :usa:
So to you I say in the words of Led Zeppelin:
"Ramble on!"
Originally posted by southern_stang_girlee+June 8, 2005, 1:52 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(southern_stang_girlee @ June 8, 2005, 1:52 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>cough cough 
wn3d: cough cough
[/b]
wn3d: cough cough[/b]
Originally posted by 68notch@June 8, 2005, 8:16 PM
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
Time to wake up and admit you got owned.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fordracing200@June 8, 2005, 10:30 PM
[/quote]
Oh by the way this was from the "Oil sludge problems" with the 2003 camry's. It was in papers around the states:
http://www.petitiononline.com/TMC2003/petition.html
http://consumeraffairs.com/news02/toyota_sludge.html
I also asked one of my coworkers about this. His son had a 2003 camry and was unfortunate enough to have oil problems. He spent nearly $5000 into the engine. You know what toyo told him "It's your fault!" He had to contest this for nearly a year before being compensated for their error. Since he has sold the camry and has a Subaru Legacy.
Plus 5 recalls this year so far:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../C01-186791.htm
This will be the sixth this year:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government has opened an investigation of the hot-selling hybrid Toyota Prius amid reports of the engine stalling without warning, officials said Wednesday.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said the preliminary investigation will involve about 75,000 cars of the 2004-2005 model years.
Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. said in a statement that it was "an early stage inquiry to determine if further analysis is warranted, not a recall."
The company said it was cooperating with NHTSA and would provide the agency with the complete results of its internal investigation.
The Prius has been a hugely popular model in the United States, leading to waiting lists. Automotive experts have said it is the first economy car with a higher resale value.
Hybrid vehicles deliver better mileage by switching between a gasoline engine and an electric motor. Toyota Motor Corp. leads in hybrid sales, with cumulative global sales of 381,500.
The agency said it has received 33 complaints of alleged engine stalling. The majority of the complaints involved reports of the engine stalling at speeds of 35 miles per hour and 65 mph.
Some of the complaints indicated that the vehicle was operated in electric mode for some period after the gas engine stalled, NHTSA said.
All of the complaints reported that the engine shut down without warning and about half of the complaints said that when the engine shut off, the vehicle would not restart and required the vehicle to be towed.
Toyota executives noted there has been no reported cases of deaths or injuries from the engine problems.
NHTSA investigations sometimes lead to vehicle recalls.
Toyota officials said last month they were investigating complaints about the Prius stalling. More than 88,000 2004 and 2005 Prius cars have been sold in the United States.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said the preliminary investigation will involve about 75,000 cars of the 2004-2005 model years.
Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. said in a statement that it was "an early stage inquiry to determine if further analysis is warranted, not a recall."
The company said it was cooperating with NHTSA and would provide the agency with the complete results of its internal investigation.
The Prius has been a hugely popular model in the United States, leading to waiting lists. Automotive experts have said it is the first economy car with a higher resale value.
Hybrid vehicles deliver better mileage by switching between a gasoline engine and an electric motor. Toyota Motor Corp. leads in hybrid sales, with cumulative global sales of 381,500.
The agency said it has received 33 complaints of alleged engine stalling. The majority of the complaints involved reports of the engine stalling at speeds of 35 miles per hour and 65 mph.
Some of the complaints indicated that the vehicle was operated in electric mode for some period after the gas engine stalled, NHTSA said.
All of the complaints reported that the engine shut down without warning and about half of the complaints said that when the engine shut off, the vehicle would not restart and required the vehicle to be towed.
Toyota executives noted there has been no reported cases of deaths or injuries from the engine problems.
NHTSA investigations sometimes lead to vehicle recalls.
Toyota officials said last month they were investigating complaints about the Prius stalling. More than 88,000 2004 and 2005 Prius cars have been sold in the United States.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.d.../505240301/1003
I am by no means saying that American car manufacturers do not have their problems either, but what I am saying is that you give toyo way too much credibility Robert. :nono:
They are suffering from numerous problems this year and will have had 6 recalls across the board on their vehicles in just over six months. You keep referring to CR and JD Powers rating. What you don't seem to realize is that those ratings are for the 2004 year not 2005 which is what we are mostly discussing. (Besides of course the fact of the 2003 camry problems and the 2000 echo issues) Also you can't simply go by 2 sources. You need to broaden your horizens on the issue. Listen to what real owners have said and complained about, not always an editor behind a desk. I understand CR goes by consumers, but they do not represent everyone. From my experiences in and around cars, toyo has not rated well at all
I do not JUST buy Ford products either, I have owned Subaru, and Honda, and currently Oldsmobile too. But from all of my experiences, I prefer Ford over all of the companies I have owned. I have had no problems whatsoever and will continue to stand by them, as will many of us here.
'Nuff said! :usa:
So to you I say in the words of Led Zeppelin:
"Ramble on!"
6/9/05, 02:41 PM
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I've read both of your responses and from what I can see from this, Toyota isn't doing as well as you think Robert. I think you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look at the facts. :usa:
6/9/05, 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by Laurie's 35th Black GT@June 9, 2005, 2:44 PM
I've read both of your responses and from what I can see from this, Toyota isn't doing as well as you think Robert.
I've read both of your responses and from what I can see from this, Toyota isn't doing as well as you think Robert.
6/9/05, 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Red Star@June 9, 2005, 5:00 PM
But its still doing better than any of Big 3.
But its still doing better than any of Big 3.
Every company in history has its rise and every company has its falls. No one company is exempt. Its economically impossible. Its all a flux (and no not a flux capacitor, I know someone will say something about that.) And right now toyo is having difficulties that are going to affect their sales in the future. If sales had not been affected the echo and celica would not have been axed, but they were and theres proof right there.
Look at the problems that I found just by searching for a few minutes. Look at the problems I have found just by talking to people. Its not a good time for toyo. You know the saying "the bigger they are the harder they fall," and the fall of toyo is starting now.
:drive:
6/9/05, 03:20 PM
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What may happen or what should happen or what will happen I really don't know. For a lot of Toyota owners (like me for example) this safety issue won't affect of what they think about Toyota. Crown Victoria also have safety issue (location of gas tank), but cops are still driving them and people are still buying them.
