bob

Royl Purple baby!

Martimus

Asking this question is always entertaining... its definitely like watching one of those old lite beer commercials (tastes great! less filling!). Personally I've used Mobil One in almost every car, truck, and bike I've owned. eace:

goat678

hot topic thats good but it looks like Mobile 1 wins and I will be going with it

ponyboy66

Well,
I didn't hear it anywhere.
I know they had some products that were not API certified.
It was a big joke to Mobil engineers a few years ago.

Now, I stand corrected and I apologize for the mis info. I should of researched 1st.
It's been a while since I have looked at oils. I truly apologize.


As I said, the numbers are very impressive and I may consider using AMSOIL.

LLG05

Not a problem! I just didn't want someone to be steered away from Amsoil becuase of it. I personally love the stuff and swear by it! Just an FYI, I used nothing but Amsoil throughout my entire vehicle and when I sold my last one, when the buyer heard this, they bought it, sight-unseen. As a matter of fact, I live in Mass and the buyer was from Ohio. He flew here, paid by certified bank check and drove it home! Said the 2000 Isuzu VehiCROSS still runs like new!

Dave...

MaverickMLFD371

Mobil 1

Rondosa

OK I know this is a VERY long read, but for those who need a little educating on what it ACTUALLY means to be "synthetic" and what manufacturer's claim, read on...

Hi, I am trying to establish whether Castrol Syntec is an API Group III oil or a true synthetic Group IV/V.
Many people nowadays are saying that the product is a hyper-processed mineral oil. Is this the case?
Thank you and please answer the question as stated.


From Castrol PR Department:

Castrol Syntec is a 100% fully-synthetic motor oil. Castrol SYNTEC is not made with petroleum base stock. Castrol does not publish any formulations or changes in formulations. Our additive systems and base oils are proprietary and chosen for performance and suitability first. Castrol uses only the highest quality materials, including synthetic base oils.

Synthetic motor oil starts with synthetic base oil. There are many different chemical processes available to make synthetic base oil due to advances in the technology of synthetics. These chemical processes are different than the simple refining techniques used to make conventional base oils.

For conventional base oils the process is simply a separation and subtraction process. Once the base oil is separated, the subtraction process cleans and removes impurities and undesirable compounds, such as wax and sulfur.
Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.

This chemical processing produces synthetic base oils that are engineered to provide consistent and predictable superior performance over conventional base oil counterparts. Synthetic base oils exhibit superior performance at both extreme hot and cold temperatures.

Synthetic base oils are then mixed with specialized additive systems that can be engineered to meet more demanding performance specifications than what is achievable from conventional motor oils. The combination of synthetic base oils and choice additive systems offers many benefits for your engine.
Thank you for contacting Castrol, The Technology Leader!
Subject: Castrol USA - Contact Us Form Data


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There are six categories of base oils. These categories define the type of base stock the oil is formulated from. The categories are as follows. Note that the base oil group category is followed by the manufacturing method (in bold print) and then a description of the oil characteristics for each category.


Group I - Solvent Freezing: Group 1 base oils are the least refined of all the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils on the market use Group I stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.

Group II - Hydro processing and Refining: Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils currently available on the market. They have fair to good performance in lubricating properties such as volatility, oxidative stability and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point, cold crank viscosity and extreme pressure wear.

Group – III Hydro processing and Refining: Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oils have become more common in America in the last decade.

Group IV -Chemical Reactions: Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.

Group V - As Indicated: Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils.

Group VI - A new base stock group to include polinternalolefins (PIOs). New base stock read across rules have also been developed, which allow Group VI base stocks to be interchanged with Group IV base stocks.


(Note that the additives referred to in the Group V description are not aftermarket type oil additives. The additives referred to are used in the chemical engineering and blending of motor oils and other lubricating oils by the specific oil company that produces the finished product.)


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Ok, boys and girls, time to start another lubrication thread. If you’re using Castrol Syntec or considering any synthetic oil for your motorcycle or car read on! Warning this may make your brain hurt...


First off, let me start by saying that I believe synthetic oils offer better performance than any conventional motorcycle oil. That an automobile synthetic is ok to use in motorcycles provided it is NON Energy Conserving (hereby referred to as non-EC). The EC compounds are the dreaded anti-friction modifiers that supposedly cause clutch slippage in wet trannies. I say supposedly cause I’ve never actually tried to use them and have heard anecdotal evidence that they do not cause clutch slip. I also believe that many motorcycle oil brands are small time producers that cannot be counted on to make a product as uniform as the big boy refiners can. In other words Mobil 1 is vastly superior to any moto-oil IMHO even the ones labeled synthetic and you shall soon see why...

Now a few years back Mobil dropped their 10W-40 synthetic which was a non-EC blend and a wintertime favorite of mine. Curiously enough at the same time they introduced their motorcycle oil lineup and surprise, it was available in 10W-40. Some marketing genius apparently figured out that there isn’t much of a need for non-EC car oils and they could charge $7.50/qt for motorcycle oil vs. the $4.50 they get labeling it as a car oil. This leaves 15W-50 Mobil 1 as the only non-EC synthetic in their car oil lineup. This is what I’ve used in thousands of miles on my bikes with no problems whatsoever, but I was still left high and dry when it came to running a winter oil.

Winter can see below freezing so you obviously need to run a lighter oil when it’s colder out. For this reason I chose to run Castrol Syntec 5W-50. I figured it’s a synthetic and has a light enough weight to run it in the colder temps.

Except it isn’t a synthetic! Yes that’s right, Castrol is charging you $4+/qt for regular dino-oil! I stumbled across this info whilst looking at the performance data. Strangely enough, the pour point of Syntec 5W-50 was higher than that of Mobil 1 15W-50! Pour point is the temperature that oil can still flow. The colder the better. Why then did a synthetic oil labeled as a 5W flow at only -15 degrees whilst the Mobil 1 which was a 15W flowed up to -55? This didn’t make any sense, the 15W oil is supposed to be heavier than the 5W and the numbers should be reversed!

Clearly something was up... more research into the issue.

All synthetic oils used in performance applications are based on two kinds of base-stock compounds. PAOs and Organic Esters. The organic esters are superior to a certain degree (they’re used in jet engines for their heat resistance) but the PAOs are more cost effective and offer superior detergent properties (keeping the engine clean) and tend to be the bulk of any synthetic oil including Mobil 1. Usually around 80% is a PAO and the rest are organic esters. In the synthetic oils that were pioneered in applications such as aviation and hi-performance this is what was used.

That said there’s a newer process of refining regular dino-oil that yields far better results than conventional refining. It’s called hydrocracking or iso-dewaxing. This process yields better quality motor oil from petroleum stock because of far more aggressive molecular manipulation which creates base oils that have some of the beneficial attributes of PAO and organic esters. While hydrocracked oils offer significant benefits over regular oil they do not outperform PAOs and Esters.

Castrol Syntec was once a PAO/Ester based oil similar to Mobil 1. Around December of 1997 it was quietly changed to a hydrocracked/ester blend. This means that the bulk of the oil is in fact regular dino oil that has been subject to the hydrocracking process with a small amount of organic ester thrown in for good measure.

Mobil took Castrol to task over this and filed a complaint with the BBB and FTC. During the long legal battle that followed Mobil claimed that Syntec was reformulated in 1997 without notice and that it could no longer call itself a synthetic. Castrol’s response was that the iso-dewaxing process offered a significant benefit and altered the molecular structure of the base stock significantly enough to qualify calling it a “synthetic�. They also asserted that since Mobil did derive their PAO/Ester basestocks from petroleum (duh) that any significant molecular manipulation of crude oil could be labeled as a synthetic product. Furthermore there is no real definition to explain what exactly a synthetic is since the SAE decided to drop the ball and avoid the issue altogether rather than issue a precise standard. Castrol used this defense to say that synthetic oils do not necessarily have to be composed of PAO/Ester compounds. That hydrocracking yields a sufficiently different product from regular oil to qualify as a synthetic.

Interestingly enough I got this quote from an article on the whole legal battle:

Joe Geagea, Chevron base oils products team manager, suggested, �Currently, there is no strict definition in North America of what constitutes synthetic, and we don’t expect this to change�

So, Mobil’s assertion that only PAO/Ester based lubes can be classified as synthetic was tossed out on the grounds that there really is no strict specification of what a synthetic is and that Castrol’s assertion that iso-dewaxing creates a product that is significantly altered from regular dino-oil qualifies it as a synthetic. In other words, using the term synthetic is technically as meaningless as the words “pure� and “organic� currently are. Since there’s no technical definition it is up to the manufacturer to decide what exactly it means.

Now this is all fine and dandy but that still doesn’t hide the fact that hydrocracked/iso-dewaxed oils do NOT outperform PAO/Esters. It also does not hide the fact that there are several iso-dewaxed oils on the market that are NOT labeled as synthetic nor are they sold for $4/qt as Syntec is. You can go out and buy some Penzoil Purebase for a lot less per quart than Syntec and get the same exact product. The only difference is that Syntec also has around 15% Esters added which do improve performance somewhat but in my mind that makes it a synthetic blend more so than anything else. While Syntec is a far better oil than the regular grades it is not as good as Mobil 1 nor does it have to cost $4 quart since there are plenty of iso-dewaxed oils on the market that sell for little more than regular dino-oil.

So what’s in Castrol semi-synthetic you ask? Good question. It’s a blend of their hydrocracked oil and regular dino-oil. In other words you’re just buying a better quality version of the SAME exact dino-oil when you get Syntec. Also note that Castrol is merely a marketer in the US and does NOT blend their own oils. It is done by third parties under license. In other words they have no direct control over what goes into the bottle other than doing spot checks on their blenders.


Mobil 1 was always more expensive because it costs significantly more to produce PAO/Ester stocks. Castrol entered the game with a similar product and then quietly changed it to a far cheaper process whilst keeping the pricing the same. They made no announcements of doing so despite the fact that they no longer had to charge $4/qt since iso-dewaxed oils are far cheaper to produce. It took Mobil’s independent testing whilst checking up on their competitors to bring this change to light.

Thanks to this precedent set by Castrol one can now successfully call all iso-dewaxed dino-oil Synthetic. This is why you’ve seen scads of synthetic oils popping up left and right not just in auto parts stores but in motorcycle dealer’s shelves. One has to wonder just how many of these “synthetics� are in fact overpriced dino-oil that has been subject to the iso-dewaxing process. We all know that motorcycle oil manufacturers aren’t full of marketing BS, right? Furthermore, since Mobil’s testing uncovered this unannounced change in Castrol’s product line what’s to keep anyone from selling relabeled dino-oil as synthetic? You go strictly on the manufacturer’s word.

Even more interesting is that DESPITE the fact that Castrol made repeated claims that iso-dewaxing process qualifies as synthetic they’re now currently stating that it is still a PAO/Ester blend. During the legal wrangling they never denied their oil was just an iso-dewaxed dino product, in fact they went to great lengths to call such a formulation a true synthetic. Either their tech reps are outright lying to cover up this whole fiasco now that it’s all behind them or they are ill informed. Since their spec sheets still list Castrol Syntec as a PAO/Ester blend despite the fact that independent testing proved otherwise I am inclined to believe that oil companies have absolutely no problem giving totally false information about their products just to make a buck.

Imagine buying your heart medications and getting placebos instead because the manufacturer is too god damned cheap to put in the active ingredient...

So the next time you plunk down $5 or more for a quart of synthetic with fancy claims realize that if it isn’t a PAO/Ester blend chances are it is nothing more than ultra-refined dino-oil and that according to the FTC it is perfectly legal to do so. That there are companies out there such as Castrol selling oil for the same cost as more expensive to produce PAO/Ester blends despite the fact that they could do so for little more than the cost of regular oil. That despite what the spec sheet may say what goes into the bottle may be a totally different animal.

Interestingly enough Mobil has recently changed their Mobil 1 to a �Tri-Synthetic� formula. Does this mean they’ve added iso-dewaxed oil to the mix now that the FTC ruled it is ok to do so? I haven’t found any specs as to what the mysterious third base stock is. Previously it was purely PAO and Organic Esters.

Since this article was written it seems that Mobil has switched its formulation to include iso-dewaxed oil, hence the name change to “Tri-Synthetic� formula. Guess they had a little more conscience than Castrol.

Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.

is consistent with

Group IV -Chemical Reactions: Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol's answer is a perfect match for how a Group III is made.

Synthetic processing uses select crude components that are chemically converted to create molecules that are different from the starting material. Synthetic processing rearranges, builds up and breaks apart molecules.


Group III bases start as 'select crude components' (IE pull a slice from the fractional distillation tower) that are hydrocracked and processed to break longer chains and assemble shorter hydrocarbon chains.

By comparison, Group IV base stocks - PAO - are made from Ethylene gas, which is a very short hydrocarbon chain. These short chains are combined to make the appropriate length molecule for the oil under construction. There's no cracking involved in PAO synthesis.

Hatchman

Wow, that's a lot of info, good post. Any idea how Amsoil fits in there?

TomServo92

I can answer the question of whether Mobil1 has any components derived from "dino" oil: absolutely not!. How do I know? I've asked the chemical engineers responsible for Mobil1 production (I work at the only facility in North America that produces Mobil1).

Rondosa

Thanks for the insight Tom - but then what's the third component of the "tri-synthetic"??

thanks,
k


ps - as for Amsoil, I have no idea. i'll try to do a little research...

TomServo92

The formulation of Mobil1 is, of course, proprietary. Even if I could get the CEs to tell me what's in it, I'd problably lose my job for posting it here. All they'll tell me is that comprised of entirely synthetic components.

ponyboy66

Here is a very comprehenive and practical study on MOBIL 1 and AMSOIL.

When you have a lot of minutes to spare, check out this site.

Very good info for the true car buff.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/s.../oil-life.html

MOBIL 1 Study - http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

AMSOIL study - http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html

over's GT

Mobil 1 since mid eightes, average change 5000mi as long as 7500

no longer then 6 months intervals

if you have a 4six 3V please use the 5w20 whatever type you use

Zc527

defenantly royal purple

jwenger

There is only one and that is ----------------Mobil 1 it has been in my Zo6 from the time the motor was started up in the factory. I just bought a Vet Zo6 from my daughter and it is like new. Paid $36k for it and it runs 12.45 1/ 4's. It was a super buy on an awesome car. I am very happy about it. Suspension is precision race car stuff. Well anyway stick with Mobil 1 you can't go wrong.

mgdumont

I have read that Amsoil beats Mobil 1(slightly), however they are the 2 best products on the market. I use amsoil. I switched over at 6000 miles and plan on changing every 6000 miles. With the internet these days, amsoil products can be found and purchased easily. if anyone needs to locate a dealer, I will give you my dealers website. Just send me an e-mail.

bob

Bob the oil guys web page

for the passionate oil lover

Mongoose

I do not believe in all the oil hype being put out there now. I had a bad experience with Quaker State years ago and would not even put that stuff in my lawn mower. Thats me, not you!!
Did your dealer not give you free oil and filter changes every 5000 for life? Mine did so I am not going to do it for sure but then I'm 67 so what does he have to loose?? LOL. If the drain plug falls out and dumps the oil its his problem.

Giddyup

I don't know much about oil at all. I went in to the service dept. at my local Ford Dealer, and said I wanted an oil change when I bring my car in for the TSB fix on the strut popping noise. I explained that I would like to switch to synthetic oil, and the service mgr. said that he's not a believer in synthetics because it tends to eat camshafts. I don't know the first things about oils at all, but he's got me kinda uncomfortable about what to do, that's for sure.

bob

Hmmmmm.....sounds like the old 305 chevy cam eating problem to me?

Which is to say, why would a 305 Chevy with the only changes from a 350, 400, 327, 302, 283, etc. being a bore and stroke difference be heck on a camshaft? (aside from some detial changes like cam journal size etc, but basically the same config)

Anywhosit, as long as the oil meets the service index for the engine (dino or synthetic) there shouldn't be any problems.

My own experience with synthetics. for the last 54,000 miles I've ran synthetics in 0w20 and 0w30 weights in a variety of conditions including a few jaunts down the quarter mile and numerous occasions where I have clobbered the rev limiter and I dont baby my engine on start up. Its key in the ignition, down the road shift at 3,000 rpm cold shift again at 3,000, down shift and shift again at 3,000 - oh look its that geezer doing 15 in a 45, pass and shift at 5,000 - 10 minutes later I'm on the low side of normal operating temps and so on with at least one or two shifts at 5500 to 6000 rpm from idle.

After the factory fill its been synthetics, first mobile 1 and now royal purple and I'm considering a change in oil change frequency from 3k to 6k with only a filter change at 3k and toping off the oil.

When I'm changing the oil I always take a look at the cam to see if there is any discernable wear (not that this a fool proof or even good indiciator) since it sits at the top and is more or less lubricated by splash and pray.

So far no abnormal wear appears to be on the cam. After start up just a nice film on the cam.