Rear Shock Issue - suggestions?
11/3/10, 11:56 AM
#61
Mach 1 Member
Thanks Sam!
"RC"
11/3/10, 06:06 PM
#62
No worries, this happens a lot when road-racers get a chip on their shoulders about us lowly autocrossers.
It's ok. Here are the things I have to say about slidejob's statements and we will leave it at that.
Just because someone is a racer doesn't mean anything to me. Not every racer is knowledgeable. Slidejob might very well be, I don't know him, but being a "racer" does not mean anyone gets a free pass in my book.
Why I haven't I "stepped up" to "real racing? Time, money, the fact that for pure suspension tuning autox is much more indicative of the work to be done. I'm not in a position where I can walk away from a car that gets balled up. And I personally know two guys that had to do that this year (and neither was their fault, both were hit by others). Also, being self-employed I don't have the time to prep a road-race car as that is more work. Finally, and here is the real thing with me.... Power makes a lot of pretty poor handling cars go fast on a track. A friend (another lowly autocrosser) just blew up his engine in his Civic. Put a stock one in, and promptly lost 8 seconds a lap on his local track. Does the car handle worse? Nope, just that on a road course you tend to spend a fair bit of time full throttle and that dilutes the lap-times as an indicator of speed. That's not so much the case with autocross.
On to the next... There are plenty of top-flight road-racers that have been or still are autocrossers. And in fact there are even some teams run by autocrossers. If you know you road-racing facts then you should know names like Randy Pobst, Jason Saini, Jeff Altenburg, Greg Fordahl, Peter Cunningham... Each an SCCA Solo National champion--just like me. If you don't know them, then look them up. I could toss around a lot of other things to try and impress you--but it's not worth the time. I will say that there is a service fix for 5.0 Mustangs that was found by data logging my car, at an autocross. Something track testing had not ever revealed, and actually became known @ Ford as the "Sam Strano problem".
I applaud Ford for not taking the attitude that I don't matter because I'm *only and autocrosser*.
I'm also certified, I grew up in a garage. I have done testing for major corporations too. No need to get into a pissing match over it. Folks can decide for themselves who they think is right. Overall I think you are in a minority of one with regards to shocks being good @ 100k miles. And those who have changed them, on these cars, will likely attest to the fact they prefer the non-stock dampers. If they are ok for you that's fine. But you also haven't tried a change to give a fair and direct comparison.
As for the tire thing. Anyone else get 60k out of stock Pirelli's? I imagine it could happen, but again good is relative. Having tread is one thing, having grip is quite another and mine were done both in wear (to the bars) and had no real grip left (heat cycled out and just hard) in the dry. Downright scary in the wet. And here's what is funny... I didn't completely hate those tires when new! So it's not a matter of being a snob and thinking they just always sucked. What can I tell you? If you get 200k out of brakes, does that mean the brakes are that good, or you use them that little?
It's ok. Here are the things I have to say about slidejob's statements and we will leave it at that.
Just because someone is a racer doesn't mean anything to me. Not every racer is knowledgeable. Slidejob might very well be, I don't know him, but being a "racer" does not mean anyone gets a free pass in my book.
Why I haven't I "stepped up" to "real racing? Time, money, the fact that for pure suspension tuning autox is much more indicative of the work to be done. I'm not in a position where I can walk away from a car that gets balled up. And I personally know two guys that had to do that this year (and neither was their fault, both were hit by others). Also, being self-employed I don't have the time to prep a road-race car as that is more work. Finally, and here is the real thing with me.... Power makes a lot of pretty poor handling cars go fast on a track. A friend (another lowly autocrosser) just blew up his engine in his Civic. Put a stock one in, and promptly lost 8 seconds a lap on his local track. Does the car handle worse? Nope, just that on a road course you tend to spend a fair bit of time full throttle and that dilutes the lap-times as an indicator of speed. That's not so much the case with autocross.
On to the next... There are plenty of top-flight road-racers that have been or still are autocrossers. And in fact there are even some teams run by autocrossers. If you know you road-racing facts then you should know names like Randy Pobst, Jason Saini, Jeff Altenburg, Greg Fordahl, Peter Cunningham... Each an SCCA Solo National champion--just like me. If you don't know them, then look them up. I could toss around a lot of other things to try and impress you--but it's not worth the time. I will say that there is a service fix for 5.0 Mustangs that was found by data logging my car, at an autocross. Something track testing had not ever revealed, and actually became known @ Ford as the "Sam Strano problem".
I applaud Ford for not taking the attitude that I don't matter because I'm *only and autocrosser*.I'm also certified, I grew up in a garage. I have done testing for major corporations too. No need to get into a pissing match over it. Folks can decide for themselves who they think is right. Overall I think you are in a minority of one with regards to shocks being good @ 100k miles. And those who have changed them, on these cars, will likely attest to the fact they prefer the non-stock dampers. If they are ok for you that's fine. But you also haven't tried a change to give a fair and direct comparison.
As for the tire thing. Anyone else get 60k out of stock Pirelli's? I imagine it could happen, but again good is relative. Having tread is one thing, having grip is quite another and mine were done both in wear (to the bars) and had no real grip left (heat cycled out and just hard) in the dry. Downright scary in the wet. And here's what is funny... I didn't completely hate those tires when new! So it's not a matter of being a snob and thinking they just always sucked. What can I tell you? If you get 200k out of brakes, does that mean the brakes are that good, or you use them that little?
You still miss the point about assumptions that I was trying to convey & the courtesy I extend fellow racers as displayed by my first post congratulating your championship. 14 championships is a big deal.
That being said, your attitude to fellow racers is not very flattering and quite prideful. All my years with SCCA & circle track I have never heard anyone express an opinion like that. All the racers I know are respectful of each others opinion, skill & knowledge level & are always willing to help each other out. Maybe it's the internet, but that is how I am interpreting your comment.
Like you, I have worked with many racers that have climbed the SCCA ladder. Boris Said, one of the more colorful characters, to Scott Sharp one of my favorites. His father Bob from Newmann Sharp racing was quite the racer.
I can appreciate why you don't road race as it is a big commitment. You would probably do very well in an AS Mustang & should consider it. I ran one for a few years & it was a blast. Even the GM guys were friendly.
I will have to disagree with you on what makes a road race or circle car go fast. Sure power is always great, but most of the time the better handling car will prevail. The dynamics of road Vs solo racing is also quite different & are not a good comparison.
I'm glad you found that fix for Ford so my 12' will be a better vehicle. I'll get 200K out of the shocks & 80K from my tires!
I am a big fan of Koni's, etc., but don't see the need for them in my situation. Ford also seems to fell the same way. I have enclosed a link (just in case you have not seen it) of the M3 Vs 5.0 test. Pobst early on during the test felt the shocks were the weak point of the car & I would agree for the track. But later in the test he comments that you could race the car as is. I was surprised to hear that comment, but it reinforced all the hard work Ford has done to make the stang a world class GT car at an affordable price.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwSPccbzl4
Last thought, I have a favorite back road that if you hit a particular small rise just right you can launch the car about 3" off the ground. Did that yesterday & my shocks did 1 compression & 1 rebound. All is good.
Hope you win 14 more Solo champs.
11/4/10, 04:32 PM
#63
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Look, for what this is worth I'm glad that you find your shocks fine. I'm more than a little surprised, but hey whatever makes you happy.
A car doesn't need to be bounding around to feel that it could use better shocks. Many folks seem to be happy with stock C6 Z06 shocks. Just last week I did a setup on a C6 Grand Sport with 1100 miles on it. The difference in trust with the stock shocks, and the Koni's was amazing--and I'm not talking about anywhere other than some PA roads (and the car was run before/after the shock change down the same road). It didn't rebound more than once stock either, but it was much better planted with the upgraded shocks.
As for my attitude to fellow racers. Wasn't it you who said I should take up real racing? Was that not a swipe at autocrossing/autocrossers? If no, what was it supposed to mean? I reacted. I don't know you, in fact I don't even know your name (which would be nice to learn) so I can't judge your skill level, etc. You seem to get way more mileage out of things and seem to be way more ok with stock things than anyone I know--and most of my customers who aren't racers. Maybe you aren't typical. But we both know (and forgive me for calling a spade a spade) "racers" that just aren't very good drivers but will tell anyone who will listen how they went to the Runoffs or ran TDI Cup, or god knows what else. Being a "racer" does not automatically mean jack squat to me, and I suspect that you'd think the same in many instances in your life. For instance, just because someone holds a job, doesn't mean they are good at it, or understand the nuances of how things really work. They might be great at it too... how do you know? Just because they tell you they are?
I have considered A-Sedan and CMC in NASA as well. But the fact I have chosen not to go that way seems to make you think less of me, based on your original statement. So it's odd to see you get bent out of shape when I make a very factual point that not everyone who races is necessarily any good (and that goes for autox as well as road-racing).
Regarding the "what makes a road-race car fast". You cannot deny that with the longer full throttle runs that power does help. Where as when we are in the meat of 2nd gear, getting all our power down is tough. And when you can get power down it's never for very long pulls. Sure, cornering speed matters be it on a road course or autocross, but when you have say 10 corners in 2 miles clearly you have time for HP to help out. Certainly the best situation is a great handling car (which is much more my focus) and power both. And in case you are wondering I do run on "real" racetracks and do lapping days, etc. In fact there is video on my website of a day early this year with some in-car from my Z28 if you'd be interested. And the setup is all the same as what I autocross that with... except on the track I run 295/35-17 Hoosier R6's, and when I autox I run 315/35-17 A6's.... I think you'll find the car is well balanced, doesn't do anything bad (a little squirrely on the out lap as I am more used to going *NOW* and didn't have much heat in the tires).
I don't think what makes a fast autox car and a fast car on a road-course are that different. You want good balance, you want stability. The fact that many autoxers run their cars too stiff and make them too twitchy isn't an indication of anything other than poor setup. I run a quite soft setup, always have--and I'm mocked for it by those that run a lot stiffer. Famously even after kicking some of their butts for National Championships and what's worse after those same folks rented the site for 2 days of testing before Nationals (a site we had never seen before).
To each his own, but I find if anything cars get looser as speed climb, but yet many run a much stiffer rear setup than I think is wise or that I run when autocrossing. That tells me they don't work the car as hard, and have to make the rear a lot stiffer to help the car turn.
Anyway, that's my say. I think we can co-exist. And respectfully I think that when or if you do upgrade the dampers you'll find the car to be a different beast.
A car doesn't need to be bounding around to feel that it could use better shocks. Many folks seem to be happy with stock C6 Z06 shocks. Just last week I did a setup on a C6 Grand Sport with 1100 miles on it. The difference in trust with the stock shocks, and the Koni's was amazing--and I'm not talking about anywhere other than some PA roads (and the car was run before/after the shock change down the same road). It didn't rebound more than once stock either, but it was much better planted with the upgraded shocks.
As for my attitude to fellow racers. Wasn't it you who said I should take up real racing? Was that not a swipe at autocrossing/autocrossers? If no, what was it supposed to mean? I reacted. I don't know you, in fact I don't even know your name (which would be nice to learn) so I can't judge your skill level, etc. You seem to get way more mileage out of things and seem to be way more ok with stock things than anyone I know--and most of my customers who aren't racers. Maybe you aren't typical. But we both know (and forgive me for calling a spade a spade) "racers" that just aren't very good drivers but will tell anyone who will listen how they went to the Runoffs or ran TDI Cup, or god knows what else. Being a "racer" does not automatically mean jack squat to me, and I suspect that you'd think the same in many instances in your life. For instance, just because someone holds a job, doesn't mean they are good at it, or understand the nuances of how things really work. They might be great at it too... how do you know? Just because they tell you they are?
I have considered A-Sedan and CMC in NASA as well. But the fact I have chosen not to go that way seems to make you think less of me, based on your original statement. So it's odd to see you get bent out of shape when I make a very factual point that not everyone who races is necessarily any good (and that goes for autox as well as road-racing).
Regarding the "what makes a road-race car fast". You cannot deny that with the longer full throttle runs that power does help. Where as when we are in the meat of 2nd gear, getting all our power down is tough. And when you can get power down it's never for very long pulls. Sure, cornering speed matters be it on a road course or autocross, but when you have say 10 corners in 2 miles clearly you have time for HP to help out. Certainly the best situation is a great handling car (which is much more my focus) and power both. And in case you are wondering I do run on "real" racetracks and do lapping days, etc. In fact there is video on my website of a day early this year with some in-car from my Z28 if you'd be interested. And the setup is all the same as what I autocross that with... except on the track I run 295/35-17 Hoosier R6's, and when I autox I run 315/35-17 A6's.... I think you'll find the car is well balanced, doesn't do anything bad (a little squirrely on the out lap as I am more used to going *NOW* and didn't have much heat in the tires).
I don't think what makes a fast autox car and a fast car on a road-course are that different. You want good balance, you want stability. The fact that many autoxers run their cars too stiff and make them too twitchy isn't an indication of anything other than poor setup. I run a quite soft setup, always have--and I'm mocked for it by those that run a lot stiffer. Famously even after kicking some of their butts for National Championships and what's worse after those same folks rented the site for 2 days of testing before Nationals (a site we had never seen before).
To each his own, but I find if anything cars get looser as speed climb, but yet many run a much stiffer rear setup than I think is wise or that I run when autocrossing. That tells me they don't work the car as hard, and have to make the rear a lot stiffer to help the car turn.
Anyway, that's my say. I think we can co-exist. And respectfully I think that when or if you do upgrade the dampers you'll find the car to be a different beast.
Last edited by sam strano; 11/4/10 at 04:38 PM.
11/4/10, 06:18 PM
#64
Hey Sam, I guess where things started getting derailed was after you responded about the 60K tire life & my attention to detail. The point I was making about assumptions was that because something works for me & doesn't work for you shouldn't be criticized. For me if I had 14 titles I would want to move on to a different challenge, but I wouldn't want to assume why you aren't. That's all I was trying to say. I didn't need to know all the details, but that's fine that you shared.
I guess the racing community in my area (CT) is a fairly tight nit group. We bump & push on track, and laugh about it over beers. Even the big guns seem to be down to earth people.
I did see your video & you look nice & smooth, to bad it's in a Chevy. LOL
We will have to agree to disagree about the handling Vs HP. Some of those low HP vehicles like a Lotus, will gives fits to much larger HP cars on a road course. I know it is a power to weight ratio thing, but it is impressive to see a momentum car work well.
I guess what I don't understand is people saying their Mustang is wandering, loose, etc. From day 1 to today my car fells tight, almost German like. Car tracks straight down the highway, no pull. Extreme mid corner bumps will move the rear slightly, but not enough to take the car off line. A lot better then my fox chassis. I have a feeling there could be other issues with their vehicles that they are not aware of. I guess because it is my office on wheels that I am **** about the maintnece. Do all my own alignments, etc. Even scaled the car for giggles.
I won't be upgrading this car as it is coming time to buy new. It looks like you have good prices on your parts. (I was a jobber/WD for years) I want to track day my 5.0 occasionally so I will be looking for an extra set of wheels for cheater dot's. Then if I was to make any upgrades to the chassis it would strictly be coil overs as the options for spring rates, height adjustment, weight setup, is far superior to the conventional setup. I could easily setup the car for daily use Vs track time. Not sure I would get the same 160K out of the shocks, but it could be a good experiment.
Anyway that's it.
Frank
I guess the racing community in my area (CT) is a fairly tight nit group. We bump & push on track, and laugh about it over beers. Even the big guns seem to be down to earth people.
I did see your video & you look nice & smooth, to bad it's in a Chevy. LOL
We will have to agree to disagree about the handling Vs HP. Some of those low HP vehicles like a Lotus, will gives fits to much larger HP cars on a road course. I know it is a power to weight ratio thing, but it is impressive to see a momentum car work well.
I guess what I don't understand is people saying their Mustang is wandering, loose, etc. From day 1 to today my car fells tight, almost German like. Car tracks straight down the highway, no pull. Extreme mid corner bumps will move the rear slightly, but not enough to take the car off line. A lot better then my fox chassis. I have a feeling there could be other issues with their vehicles that they are not aware of. I guess because it is my office on wheels that I am **** about the maintnece. Do all my own alignments, etc. Even scaled the car for giggles.
I won't be upgrading this car as it is coming time to buy new. It looks like you have good prices on your parts. (I was a jobber/WD for years) I want to track day my 5.0 occasionally so I will be looking for an extra set of wheels for cheater dot's. Then if I was to make any upgrades to the chassis it would strictly be coil overs as the options for spring rates, height adjustment, weight setup, is far superior to the conventional setup. I could easily setup the car for daily use Vs track time. Not sure I would get the same 160K out of the shocks, but it could be a good experiment.
Anyway that's it.
Frank
11/5/10, 12:26 AM
#65
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Even the monroe sensatrack shocks are not very good. So in my list of do not buy is OEM & Monroe.
The oem valving sucks and after very little wear the valving changes and the car rides like its on pogosticks. There is no dampening left. Same with monroe.
Get a set of koni, I hear good thing about KYB. But everything is relative to application.
I am sure my back will thank me when I remove the junk shocks out of my car and replace them with something better.
Speaking of which. Sam? Any deals coming down the pipe for Kony Yellows?
The oem valving sucks and after very little wear the valving changes and the car rides like its on pogosticks. There is no dampening left. Same with monroe.
Get a set of koni, I hear good thing about KYB. But everything is relative to application.
I am sure my back will thank me when I remove the junk shocks out of my car and replace them with something better.
Speaking of which. Sam? Any deals coming down the pipe for Kony Yellows?
11/9/10, 04:00 PM
#66
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The Koni Sports are on special right now, $750/set shipped.... That's $31.80 l less than normal, and the free shipping too.
STR.T's are $399 + shipping. Can buy shocks individually if you don't want the entire set of 4.
STR.T's are $399 + shipping. Can buy shocks individually if you don't want the entire set of 4.
11/9/10, 05:04 PM
#67
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
My rears just came in.(STR.Ts)
Might have time this week or next to install.
Any how-to's posted anywhere.
Did a quick search and didn't find anything.
Might have time this week or next to install.
Any how-to's posted anywhere.
Did a quick search and didn't find anything.
11/9/10, 05:27 PM
#68
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11/12/10, 04:56 AM
#74
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Your not kidding. It took me 10 minutes. I didnt even jack the car up. I did it while it was parked in the driveway. Its 4 bolts in total. The bottom ones and the top ones. Simple piece of cake. The front's are completely different animal.
11/13/10, 09:44 AM
#75
11/14/10, 06:38 AM
#76
I Have No Life
Thread Starter
I've never done this before, so pardon me for being cautious or dumb on the subject.
What do I need to remove, support or jack?
Give me the coles notes version....
11/14/10, 09:33 AM
#77
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This job is pretty easy.
Low profile floor jack, jacks stands and a breaker bar mainly.
Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtczXhVnPvs He starts working on the rear @3:50 in the video.
You don't need to remove the brakes, just unbolt the clip that's holding the brake line to the chassis for travel, you'll see it @ 4:15.
Low profile floor jack, jacks stands and a breaker bar mainly.
Check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtczXhVnPvs He starts working on the rear @3:50 in the video.
You don't need to remove the brakes, just unbolt the clip that's holding the brake line to the chassis for travel, you'll see it @ 4:15.
Last edited by TTS197; 11/14/10 at 09:37 AM.
11/14/10, 08:57 PM
#79
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Actually you will not find any aftermarket shocks with "higher quality" than the OEM parts. The aftermarket does not have to pass the stringent durability testing that Ford puts their parts through. If you are not "upgrading" to newer shocks/struts all around, and just drive your car on the street there is no reason not to just get OEM replacements. I've also found newtakeoff.com a good resource for those parts.
however, when they took-off the takeoffs they replaced them with something that was presumably somewhat better, right?
otherwise, why bother?
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