Cavero

I'm posting this to a couple different forums to cast a wide net, so if you're a member on other ones you might see this twice:


I searched on this and couldn't find anything that really matched my situation. There are two suspects - the battery and the alternator. Here goes...

What happened:
Yesterday I installed a set of Steeda underdrive pulleys on my car. I had the radio on for about an hour and then it just shut off -- battery was definitely dead. After I put the car back together, I jump started the car and checked the voltage - 14.0V. I'd heard that since UDPs don't drive the accessories as fast, voltage at idle could be an issue. I let it idle for about 10 min while I put the tools away.

So I took it out for a test drive and at two different points, the battery light briefly came on and the message center said "CHECK CHARGING SYSTEM", then after a second, it went back to normal. Car didn't experience any symptoms. This was at night and the lights didn't dim at all. I figured it must've been the battery being so dead or something. Both cases happened as engine RPM were dropping from about 2500 RPM -- the first one coasting to a stop sign, and the second going from a 4th to 5th shift.

This morning I decided I should scan for DTCs just to be sure, and I saw P0622 Generator Field "F" Terminal Control Circuit (from Torque App). I cleared the codes and decided to datalog on my way into work this morning, and everything was fine -- until I was backing into the space, again as RPMs dropped from me working the gas/clutch. Scanned it again -- yep. P0622.

My primary suspect's the alternator right now. The weird thing is it was 100% OK until I swapped out the pulleys yesterday. But I didn't do anything to the alternator other than change the lower-driver's side mounting bolt to the one that came w/ the Steeda kit. Just as you'd expect w/ a UDP install, I didn't disconnect or disturb any charging system related wires.

Here's the main reason I suspect the alternator (this morning's datalog):

Red is voltage at the PCM (left scale), blue is engine RPM (right scale)



That 15.43V spike was right around the time I was parking (when the battery light and "CHECK CHARGING SYSTEM" popped up again). I didn't take note of the exact time, so i'm only 90% sure.

Zoomed in:




I datalogged on the way home too, and didn't have any problems (of course). voltage dipped a couple times (that last big dip was when I turned on my headlights and the HIDs were warming up), but there were no spikes.





On the battery side of things, I know the battery's been on its way out for a while -- ever since last winter when it got pretty cold -- if I didn't drive the car for about a week, it'd be flat. Leave my cell charger plugged in for 3 days and it'd be a little slow to turn over. After the test drive and everything, I checked the battery and it was ~11.9V I left it on a battery tender overnight and this morning it was ... ~11.9V. I drove it into work and when I shut the car off -- again about 11.8 - 12.0V. It's a 4 year old Optima Red top.

stupidgenius36

With as much trouble as these models have with charging to begin with, UDP is probably not a mod I would ever do.

I'd go to your local parts store and get them to test the battery/alternator. I'm guessing the battery is dead, because the alternator is no longer able to sufficiently charge it at lower speeds. And it's entirely possible that it's killed the alternator now too.

I wouldn't be surprised if you continue to have charging issues more frequently with the new pulley. Perhaps I'm too skeptical of our cars' charging abilities...or maybe not.

Paris MkVI

I've been through 6 or 7 batteries and an alternator replacement in 2012. Still having the issues. Just replaced a battery again last month. No mods at all.

Fresh battery, three year-old alternator, and I still get the periodic "Check Charging System" warning.

tj@steeda

A little feedback ... It looks as if though you installed the pulleys properly.

I spoke to our internal team and you may want to look at the alternator.

Best Regards,

TJ

Cavero

TBH, I never had charging issues until now. I've seen threads about dead alternators, but never thought is was a widespread problem w/ these cars. That said, 9 1/2 years on a single alternator isn't that bad.


---

I picked up a new Optima. MAN--I could not believe how much faster it turned over! I datalogged it on the way in and the way home from work today, the voltage is much more stable (still no spikes since yesterday morning). The thing is...seems like the voltage is trending down over the 40 min trip home. Maybe its a temperature thing -- as the engine warms up.






This was the drive in on the fresh battery, BTW:




Maybe I'm reading too much into the graphs, but its possible the alternator really is crapping out.

Cavero

Which alternator? One of the parts store specials, or another Motorcraft one?

The thing 3/4 of all the alternator threads I found had in common was the were the cheap replacement ones crapped out a lot sooner.

Cavero

Thanks, I'll take it to a parts store to have it tested.


Speaking of which, does anyone know if you still have to pull the alternator to get it tested, or can they do it still in the car now? Last time I had to get one tested I was still in high school (loooooong time ago)

stupidgenius36

They can test it on or off the car.

I have to replace my alternator every 2 years. I've replaced with Motorcraft, and I've tried replacements from several different stores...all dead in 2 years. I always recommend whatever has the longest warranty (lifetime if you can find it). It's not an issue with all cars of this model, but I'd say it's a very significant portion. It seems if you have the "issue"...it'll always happen again.

07 Boss

I'm on my 5th alternator in 70K miles. The problem is that there are no new alternators out there. They are all rebuilt unless you go with some aftermarket performance company. If you have to replace the alternator, go with a 2010 3-phase alternator instead of our single phase units. It will bolt right up and plug right in.

m05fastbackGT

Are you referring to the Motorcraft 2010 Denso units or aftermarket ?

Cavero

INTERESTING! I've been doing some reading on it since I saw your post, and it really makes you wonder if Ford knew that the single-phase alternator was a hunk of crap. I know the bean counters made them do a lot of trade-offs during development of the S197 to keep the GT around $25k so its possible the alternator was one of those casualties.

I also read that most of the marginal-to-failing alternators tend to test OK when you take them to a parts store to get them tested, so even though my car is behaving itself right now, I might still look into a new one now. I wouldn't want a bad alternator to kill my brand new battery.


Side note: I came across this on S197Forum:

They also had a screen snap from the SCT software that seems to confirm.





That could be why my voltage started dropping as I got closer to home with that last datalog. I didn't log the intake temps yesterday so can't be sure. It was also only around 60 deg on the way home so can't imagine IATs were that high.

07 Boss

Yes, the stock Denso unit. I have found aftermarket alternators as a hit or miss deal. And even companies like PA have to be modified to a clutch pulley for my set up.


I always wondered why they went with this POS alternator and cost was the only thing I could come up with that made any sense. It's an archaic piece of equipment.

Many of the alternators I had go bad tested good because those parts stores tend to do the same voltage test that we do in our own garages. Very few do a diode test which is usually the part that goes out. It will be an intermittent failure with an increasing frequency till she takes a total crap. So it can be fine when tested but fail around the corner from the shop.

Yes we don't have a traditional style voltage regulator and I'm pretty sure he IATs have to be prett high to pull voltage. I live in Vegas and see some pretty hot temps without any negative voltage issues.

I think one of the problems with our failing alternators is its position in the engine bay. IMO it gets too hot where it sits but I don't have any facts to back that up. Just a bunch on my part.

m05fastbackGT

That's what I thought you meant, but wasn't quite sure if it was the stock Denso unit or not.. Guess I'm just fortunate that my stock alternator hasn't crapped out after 9 years, but when the time comes to replace it, I'll most definitely be upgrading to the 2010 Denso unit providing they're still available

Cavero

Time to wake this thread up again --

So after getting the new battery back in the fall I set my idle speed to 810 or 820 RPM and didn't have any issues w/ codes since. Just got my car dyno'd yesterday after getting some cams installed and the Tech and I decided to set the new idle to a little higher than stock, 770. Car behaved itself perfectly on the dyno and during their test drives. After I got the keys back in hand I had to run 20 mi up the highway -- everything OK. Was over at my brother-in-law's place for a little while, then took the car to pick up some pizza and after getting stuck in traffic a little bit, I got the "CHECK CHARGING SYSTEM" message again, and code P0340 (crankshaft position sensor). Battery light came on too. I know the P0340 code is normal for a low battery/bad charging system (see TSB here).

Got back on the highway on my way home and the ~2k RPM cruising was enough to keep it from complaining again. As soon as I get back into town and got stuck at one of NoVA's ridiculous 2 minute stoplights, it acted up again. When I got home, checked the battery -- 12.5V w/ car off. Idling @ 770 RPM, about 13.8.

Got a new 3-phase alternator on the way now from Rock Auto (MOTORCRAFT GL950 {#9R3Z10346B} (manual trans)), and put the car on the battery tender overnight. For right now, the car's probably grounded until I change it out. Of course the shop didn't set up the tune so I could set idle speed in the tuner, otherwise I'd up it to ~810 again. Then again, they were a little surprised that I still had an XCAL2 and probably forgot they had to set something for it.

Good times.

Side note -- I ran across this TSB that states you need about two hours above 1500 RPM to fully charge a deeply discharged battery. Wonder if that applies to the cars w/ active anti-theft that have the bigger batteries.

m05fastbackGT

I've also read on several sites concerning the crappy OEM alternators as well and I suppose that I was just one of the lucky ones that didn't experience any issues..

I can also confirm that after running a Steeda UDP on my previous 05 GT for over 7 years, I never had to replace the alternator nor were there any codes or warning messages that came up.. Therefore IMHO I really don't believe the Steeda UDP was a contributing factor behind your alternator crapping out..

With that being said, I totally agree with the other posters concerning the POS single phase alternators are just nothing but junk.. Hopefully by the time my current OEM alternator finally craps out, the 3 phase Denso units will still be available

mrkabc

Good to know about the 2010 alternators!


I'm probably jinxing myself by saying this, but I have been running Steeda UDPs since 2006 with no issues. Battery charges fine, alternator is still OEM.


Maybe I shouldn't have said anything...

Cavero

Yeah I can't say I've ever heard of anyone else having alternator issues from a UDP install. I think the alternator was already degrading but hadn't reached the point where it would start showing symptoms at the normal idle speeds on the stock pulley. Then by under-driving it with the UDP, it drove it slow enough to start showing problems.

The behavior its having (seemingly OK voltage, throwing codes) seems to be backed up by a failing diode (I'm assuming in the rectifier circuit?) and I was doing some reading this afternoon and found something else that supports it. Winter 2014-15 I started having battery drain issues. It'd go from fully charged to unable to start in about a week. I thought it was the polar vortex killing my battery, or leaving my cell phone charger plugged in (never caused any issues before that). After getting a new battery this past fall it was still draining. Well, what I was reading this afternoon was that a bad diode can actually drain the battery.

tj@steeda

Thank you for the feedback, we appreciate the update.

Best Regards,

TJ

Cavero

So I'll give you guys the short version of the Rock Auto SNAFU --- the part has to be ordered direct from Motorcraft. No surprise there, it says that right on their website. Turns out FedEx delivered it to the wrong business address instead of their warehouse, and they didn't figure that out till Friday when I called them to find out WTF was going on w/ my alternator. They told me they could either order it again or cancel the order. SO PISSED I just said screw it and cancelled the order and called the nearest dealer. Yep. They had it by Saturday morning. Only problem was the [substantial] price difference. But after a week, I couldn't take it anymore.

Friday night I took out the old one



Kinda surprised me how much empty space was behind it:




I compared the new & old side by side at the dealer (sorry no pics, they took the old one for core charge before I could get one). The new one is definitely smaller -- and lighter too. Felt like around 1 pound.


As far as the installation goes, NOT totally plug and play. Alternator bolts right up, this is true. But

1) the high power post on the back of the old alternator was a M6x1.25 bolt. The 2010 alternator is a M8x1.25. So I had to widen the eyelet on the positive cable w/ a drill bit. OH, and you'll need the larger M8x1.25 nut, which isn't included w/ the alternator. Found that out the hard way, but luckily autozone is right down the street.

2) The post and the 3-pin plug aren't in the same place between the 2006 and the 2010 alternators. I got the heavy pos cable hooked up and then I didn't have slack to plug in the other one!
Luckily all I had to do was unwrap the wire loom a little bit to get more slack on the plug:



So got it all put back together, and well ... it's shiny I guess...





The important thing is that I'm getting a nice 14.1-14.2V at idle now (stock idle --no more idling @ 880 ). Zero cases of the computer acting stupid.

BIG thanks again to 07 Boss for the 2010 alternator tip

05stangkc

Really Good Thread!

Gave a Sticky!

Mgb,

KC