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Old 9/17/10, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Notch
Good way to get your car keyed.
Old 9/17/10, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cdynaco
I think there are way too many assumptions that the fair tax would work as well as they think.

Using Houtex's snapshot, that's a lot of pain right in your face:



Not to mention purchasing a new car...

People react to that and change behavior. While its nice to think a consumption tax would improve the economy via increased savings, don't forget a huge portion of our $14 trillion dollar economy is due to consumer spending. If a person sees huge taxes in their face on each purchase, they're either going to curtail their spending or buy secondhand or buy through the underground cash economy. Either way, that's a big dent on purchasing new items and so the 'improved economy' may not necessarily happen.

Course I'm in Oregon (no sales tax) so I repel any thought of consumption taxes because I know the State will not reduce other taxes as an offset. And plenty of Californians and Washingtonians come to Oregon to purchase products 'sales tax free', which bumps up our highly regulated (stifled) State economy. (Course that's a tax revenue loss to Oregon which is why property tax is so high here.)

I'm not convinced a consumption tax will work. And a VAT will kill our economy. But I am convinced a simplified flat tax of some sort would be far better than the IRS/CPA scam currently in place.
its a consumption tax at the federal level...add 30% to your net take home pay (23% inclusive), thats what it will cost you to spend your current pay. now add your social security and fed witholding to your net take home- did it mostly offset it? rember you will also get a prebate too... everyone should run their numbers and see exactly how it will affect their household, but most will not see a decrease in buying power. in my case I'd be 400 a month in the hole, but the prebate would put me 300 ahead...no windfalls there, but nost will see a modest increase in buying power...youre right though, first instinct will be to save more, at least for a while...and if you save it, you save/collect interest on ALL you save, not whats left after taxes(interest which they currently also tax)...

I'm still trying to hear all the pro/con stuff- I hope everyone else does too. dont take his/her word on it, look into it, run your numbers, think about it.

again for me, the biggest thing is deleting the 67,000 pages of corrupt paybacks, and moving the cookie jar out of lobbyists reach. Money breeds corruption, and right now the backdoor tax code ammendment has been the single easiest way for them to fill pockets. every single piece of legislation passed has paybacks weaseled in it currently. they will not go for line item veto as it might make the tax stealing difficult, they dont want to put names on the earmarks...both were obama promises- even though he also played that game...wont happen. take away the easy grab temptation, corruption becomes less gray, and harder for them to pull off without getting caught.

any kind of tax revision needs first and foremost to be locked where the kings cannot manipulate it for themselves or their contributors. everyone knows how it goes, how its corrupt, but they also know its currently within their powers to legally give cash to a toy arrow manufacturer in texas as part of a bank bailout bill. THAT is what needs to be stopped- quit working at paying back, and start running our country. unlikely- yes...BUT just about universally right now folks are getting pissed off about the way the government is handling finances...if the time was ever ripe for change, its right now.

the VAT is a big worry to me- most agree its a horrible concept that will kill an economy, but lately the government dont seem to care what the citizens think...fairtax has 60-some supporters to date, hopefully by election time that can be increased

question for everyone that posts in here daily- how often have you written your representatives? the 'why bother it wont change anything' attitude is why our government is so broken- they run wild knowing most folks dont care long as they have phone/video game/internet forum/whatever to occupy their time...if even one in ten wrote their representatives, they would take notice...I bet sincerely right now its less than 1 in 1000. Ive written 3 letters in the last year, but posted hundreds of times in here...I just want to do 'something'...a piece of printed vinyl aint much, but ALREADY three folks at work commented on it, and one read up on it, asked me for a bumper sticker the next day. its not much, but its doing something...
Old 9/17/10, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ford4v429
question for everyone that posts in here daily- how often have you written your representatives? the 'why bother it wont change anything' attitude is why our government is so broken- they run wild knowing most folks dont care long as they have phone/video game/internet forum/whatever to occupy their time...if even one in ten wrote their representatives, they would take notice...I bet sincerely right now its less than 1 in 1000. Ive written 3 letters in the last year, but posted hundreds of times in here...I just want to do 'something'...a piece of printed vinyl aint much, but ALREADY three folks at work commented on it, and one read up on it, asked me for a bumper sticker the next day. its not much, but its doing something...
I have on a number of occasions on certain issues. They usually never respond with so much as a form letter so I assume my letter is going in the round file.

I did write my new senator Merkley about the Cash for Clunkers program because although my old car was an 84, it was built in Jan. To qualify it had to be built in July or later. What's it matter? It was still an 84 with the same engine etc throughout the entire year. But mine didn't qualify because of the legislators stupid rules.

Several months later I received this reply:

Dear Charles,

Thank you for sharing your support for the Shark Conservation Act of 2009 (S. 850). It is an honor to serve as your Senator, and I appreciate hearing from you.

I, too, support the Shark Conservation Act and am a proud co-sponsor of this bill. As you know, killing sharks for their fins is a practice that threatens shark populations around the world. This legislation would strengthen the U.S. restrictions on removing shark fins by prohibiting fishing boats from trading fins at sea or bringing fins into port.

I agree with you that protecting our shark populations is crucial to maintaining a healthy ocean ecosystem, and curbing the biodiversity crisis our planet is currently facing. As a member of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, please know that I will work with my colleagues to advance legislation protecting endangered wildlife populations.

Thank you, again, for sharing your thoughts with me. I hope you will continue to keep me informed about the issues that matter most to you.


All my best,
Jeff Merkley
United States Senate


And Rhumb has the nerve to say Christine O'Donnell isn't smart enough to be a Senator.

Old 9/17/10, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ford4v429
its a consumption tax at the federal level...add 30% to your net take home pay (23% inclusive), thats what it will cost you to spend your current pay. now add your social security and fed witholding to your net take home- did it mostly offset it? rember you will also get a prebate too... everyone should run their numbers and see exactly how it will affect their household, but most will not see a decrease in buying power. in my case I'd be 400 a month in the hole, but the prebate would put me 300 ahead...no windfalls there, but nost will see a modest increase in buying power...youre right though, first instinct will be to save more, at least for a while...and if you save it, you save/collect interest on ALL you save, not whats left after taxes(interest which they currently also tax)...
Why would anyone be getting prebates? We're shifting the tax payment from the "income, pay on the backside" end to the "up front, right now, here you go, this is your tax on this good" end. The idea of a prebate seems... odd. More government shuffle work. Unless everyone gets the exact same prebate, and for that... what's the point? This needs to be gone.

Prebates are nothing except a political carrot to try to sweeten what ostensibly is already a much better way to go. Why? For those who worry about their 1.08 burrito going to 1.30, because they can't THINK about the situation... "But I'm po!"

So they get dragged in by the carrot. Or those who worry about that situation do. Which is another thing to keep the status quo, because they'll shoot that carrot in every debate, saying "see? Their 'system' is broken out of the box, or why does the prebate exist in it?" Nosir, it's gotta go, IMO.

question for everyone that posts in here daily- how often have you written your representatives? the 'why bother it wont change anything' attitude is why our government is so broken- they run wild knowing most folks dont care long as they have phone/video game/internet forum/whatever to occupy their time...if even one in ten wrote their representatives, they would take notice...I bet sincerely right now its less than 1 in 1000. Ive written 3 letters in the last year, but posted hundreds of times in here...I just want to do 'something'...a piece of printed vinyl aint much, but ALREADY three folks at work commented on it, and one read up on it, asked me for a bumper sticker the next day. its not much, but its doing something...
You got me. And probably a lot of us. I have written a couple of times, to be honest, about something very strong... and got the form letter back. Yay, form letter. My congress person really cares about my particular opinion.

But there's one thing I do... vote. That's more than a whole lotta OTHERS in this country. And of the voters? I'm a minority. That's right, I'm a majority in my 'race'*, but a minority in my vote vis-a-vis my 'race.'... and probably my thinking too.

But off I go, voting my mind, my conscience, my views, my needs, my desires. All in the name of making this a better place, hopefully, by putting the best pawn in for the job.

And that's a good idea, one that should be instilled in EVERY AMERICAN... The federal government are OUR PAWNS. Made to be used to sacrifice their beliefs, in some cases, for the majority of their representation. Not the other way around. It's just... sad that it's not thought of that way, or always done.

Which is why we vote them out... and should probably limit their tenure, but that's really a different subject, isn't it. Sorry.

/ooh, diatribical soliloquy. Probably oughtta not do that so much.
//*- I don't like being any 'race'. I'm an American, that should be plenty.

Last edited by houtex; 9/17/10 at 07:17 PM.
Old 9/17/10, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by houtex
Why would anyone be getting prebates?
This needs to be gone.
Because you have to make allowance for those that are in the 0% bracket now and those many many (new Obama) millions of people at or below poverty. Otherwise you have increased the tax on those with the least ability to pay - and those with the highest propensity to spend. Whereas the wealthy don't have to spend 100% of their income. So without prebates, it would truly be the greatest tax increase ever on the poor and the rich getting the greatest benefit.

No can do.
Old 9/17/10, 08:33 PM
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Still offering the book...
Old 9/17/10, 08:41 PM
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good read from Mike Huckabee:

Recently, the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette published an editorial attacking John Boozman and me for supporting the Fair Tax. The criticism mirrored that of Senator Blanche Lincoln and like most of the attacks on the fair tax, it didn't let the facts get in the way of a strong opinion to keep the status quo of the tax system. I asked to submit a guest column to thoroughly present the other side, but the idea of a guest column was rejected by the newspaper, which is their prerogative. Since they chose not to tell the other side, I will take to the forum of my website to do so and would ask that you forward the article to everyone you can, especially if you have friends in AR so they will know that Blanche Lincoln is as wrong on the Fair Tax as she was on Obamacare and the stimulus. It's apparent that she hasn't read the Fair Tax bill anymore than she read the 2300 pages of the Obamacare bill.


Guest Column----“Facts and the Fair Tax” by Mike Huckabee

It is unfortunate that you have consistently written with contempt about the Fair Tax, but have obviously done so without bothering to conduct even the most perfunctory research on what it actual does and does not do. I expect that kind of “shoot first, aim later” approach from the local tabloids, but the Democrat-Gazette editorial staff is better than your understanding of the Fair Tax would reflect.

The Fair Tax is hardly a “half-baked” idea. It is the result of over $22 million dollars of scholarly research involving economists from Harvard, MIT, Stanford, University of Chicago, Boston University, and other prestigious universities.

In a nutshell, the Fair Tax is a flat tax, but instead of taxing our productivity (income, investment, savings, capital gains, or inheritance), we are taxed at the point of consumption at the retail level on new items. It is flat, fair, finite, and family friendly. It is totally transparent, unlike the hideous tax structure we currently have and is not a VAT that assesses taxes at production points, but remains largely hidden to the consumer.

The criticism that it would “hurt the poor” is the surest evidence that the critic is ignorant of the pre-bate built into the fair tax, which un-taxes consumption of our basic necessities, and which the studies show actually creates the greatest benefit to those in the lower third of the economy, significant benefit to the middle third of the economy, and some benefit, but less to those in the top third of the economy.

Here’s what the Fair Tax will do:

1.Eliminate the IRS and its indecipherable 67,000 pages of tax code so complex that even Treasury Secretary Timothy Geitner and 41 members of the White House staff seem unable to understand it (or else simply unwilling to comply with it.)
2.Release $13 TRILLION of U. S. capital back into our economy that is presently legally, but unfortunately parked offshore to protect it from the ravenous tax rates.
3.End the nightmarish accounting and legal nightmare for small business operators (and large ones) and allow them to actually make BUSINESS decisions instead of TAX decisions.
4.Eliminate an estimated $500 Billion of expenses related to compliance with the complicated tax code that produces nothing but government paperwork.
5.Virtually eliminate the underground economy by making taxpayers out of illegals, prostitutes, pimps, drug dealers, gamblers, and others who work “off the books.”
6.Restore a person’s full paycheck—one will receive in many cases his or her first full paycheck with no deductions taken out.
7.Eliminate the hidden and embedded tax on all the things we purchase, which is approximately 22%.
Unfortunate and misguided or perhaps dishonest statements have been made about the Fair Tax, some of which stems from the utterly nutty critique some years ago by Robert Bartley of the Wall Street Journal who went so far as to try and allege that the Fair Tax was a secret plot of the Church of Scientology. Some point to a supposed study of the Fair Tax by the Bush administration, which was a consumption tax, but not one that involved the all critical pre-bate. Some simply fail to understand the power of the pre-bate for low income earners or have failed to recognize how significantly the political dynamics of Washington would change if Congress were no longer able to manipulate the tax code so as to create winners and losers according to the whims of Congress rather than to the free marketplace.

The so-called “sticker shock” of a 23% tax rate seems ominous until one realizes that with the various payroll taxes, hidden taxes in our purchases, etc., the average American already pays almost 33% in taxes now at the federal level.

The Fair Tax would be a legitimate economic stimulus package by creating a level playing field for manufacturing. When U. S. companies are having to factor in the embedded taxes on our side, but our competitors in China don’t, we have a hard time keeping our manufacturing and our jobs here.

I recommend that one read “The Fair Tax” by Congressman John Linder and Neal Boortz or the follow-up book by the same authors, “The Fair Tax Answers,” or go to fairtax.org and then at least base whatever criticism on something other than internet chatter and less than complete understanding of the facts of the Fair Tax.
I'm getting more miles out of this bumper sticker in here than on the car- but its all good... asking questions/sharing comments help folks form opinions for or against
Old 9/17/10, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cdynaco
Because you have to make allowance for those that are in the 0% bracket now and those many many (new Obama) millions of people at or below poverty. Otherwise you have increased the tax on those with the least ability to pay - and those with the highest propensity to spend. Whereas the wealthy don't have to spend 100% of their income. So without prebates, it would truly be the greatest tax increase ever on the poor and the rich getting the greatest benefit.

No can do.
well said.

and might mention the prebate is the same for rich or poor- its a 'up to poverty level there is effectively a zero tax' amount, wether you need it(low income) or not (bill gates)
Old 9/17/10, 08:52 PM
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good way to get your car keyed
Originally Posted by bob
for sporting a FairTax sticker?
there are illegals working in ohio...could happen.

not much worry about lobbyists lurking around this part of the country though

if it gets keyed it gets keyed...if it gets a few more folks to get a few more folks asking questions, its still worth it...I'll keep a eye out for illegals/congreesmen lurking about
Old 9/17/10, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ford4v429
there are illegals working in ohio...could happen.

not much worry about lobbyists lurking around this part of the country though

if it gets keyed it gets keyed...if it gets a few more folks to get a few more folks asking questions, its still worth it...I'll keep a eye out for illegals/congreesmen lurking about
I'd be more worried about a politician keying the car than anyone else.
Old 9/17/10, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D.
I'd be more worried about a politician keying the car than anyone else.
Or a CPA...
Old 9/18/10, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cdynaco
Because you have to make allowance for those that are in the 0% bracket now and those many many (new Obama) millions of people at or below poverty. Otherwise you have increased the tax on those with the least ability to pay - and those with the highest propensity to spend. Whereas the wealthy don't have to spend 100% of their income. So without prebates, it would truly be the greatest tax increase ever on the poor and the rich getting the greatest benefit.

No can do.
Right, so instead of getting them to do the right thing and pull themselves up by the bootstraps, you coddle them.

Like I said... carrot.

Listen, friends, I've been the downtrodden. Not as bad as some, but pretty **** dire. For me especially.

I tightened my belt, did the hard decisions, and got out of that situation. I did my best, which maybe still isn't good enough, but I'm workin' on it. I got a little help here and there. But overall, I'm planning to desperately NEVER be that bad again.

Granted, again, it wasn't nearly as desperate as for some, but it was getting to a 'do I have to sell some of my stuff to make ends' point. And then I look at my stuff and say... 'Well, there's not enough to do that anyway.' That's when you figure it out and get off the pot and DO something about it.

When you are handed things, such as prebates and handouts and gifts and such... over and over... it's expected. That's when it's wrong. That's why I don't think it's right to continue the stupidness. Have some pride, get out there and get something done, and do it yourself!

There is only so much that charity can go... then even it runs out of funds. What then? Seriously, people, WHAT THEN?!

The givernment prints money, of course. Yeah, that'll do it.

Friends, do remember, I clearly stated earlier: "it won't stop." I recognize that there's just too many who won't get up (or can't, in a very few percentage points), but worse, there are those who can't possibly bear to let the 'poor pitiful people' fish for themselves, and instead give them the fish. I'm sure we all know of this adage.

Just like I'm to be reminded now of the charitable bit we're supposed to be. That's fine, as an exception, but NOT A RULE. THIS is what I'm opposed to, and will forever be.

Hence, no prebates in my book.

And I'm done, on that, honestly, no more water to wring from the rock called my hardass attitude.

Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D.
Still offering the book...
I appreciate the offer, but that's ok. I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but it's a cut and dry principle for me:

Everyone pays. Nobody shirks. You don't pay your way, I'll shoot you myself. DO YOU GET ME?
WE GET YOU SIR!
Welcome to the Roughnecks.
houtex'S ROUGHNECKS, HOOHA!

/ok, went a little Starship Trooper there. Sorry.
//Oh, and btw, should this be moved now to politics? Not that I'm worried, but...

Last edited by houtex; 9/18/10 at 09:14 AM. Reason: I keep missing a letter here and there... over and over... in my posts. I gotta improve that too. :p
Old 9/18/10, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by houtex
Right, so instead of getting them to do the right thing and pull themselves up by the bootstraps, you coddle them.

Like I said... carrot.

Listen, friends, I've been the downtrodden. Not as bad as some, but pretty **** dire. For me especially.

I tightened my belt, did the hard decisions, and got out of that situation. I did my best, which maybe still isn't good enough, but I'm workin' on it. I got a little help here and there. But overall, I'm planning to desperately NEVER be that bad again.
Wow. We're not talking about welfare or a free ride - we're talking about the stinking leech government not confiscating tax on those that are in that predicament where they are spending 100%+ of their income to scrape by and live. Before you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you need to get the 1000# gorilla government off your back!

And even moreso when jobs are so non-existent that the true UE rate is 15-16%. Yet gas is still $3, bread $2, beef and pork prices jumping, etc.

That's why we have a 0% tax bracket now. The 0% tax bracket has nothing to do with people leeching off the government and staying there because they "want to be on welfare" (according to your theory). You are confusing the two.

I know pulling yourself up by the bootstraps and I agree with that. But I also know you can't tax people when they don't have any extra pennies to buy food - much less pay for the fat salaries, retirements of stinking *** politicians.

What's next, you want to tax children and babies too?


You know, not every State is wealthy from oil money like Texas...

Last edited by cdynaco; 9/18/10 at 09:48 AM.
Old 9/18/10, 09:37 AM
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Think of all of the faults of our current tax system. Try and post them all and you'll win the award for longest post ever at TMS. Study The Fair Tax and lists it's faults. If you still feel the prebate system is poor, then that's ok. But look at what we're better off with and realize that this country will never allow to not have a safety net. Like you said... tough decisions. (although this one would actually pretty easy )
Old 9/18/10, 10:55 AM
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Our current tax system can be summed up as follows:

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."


Seriously we tax on what people make and if you make more your rate is more! Talk about disincentive. In a perfect world we'd all pay a set amount. Boy wouldn't that cut down on government spending when everyone got a bill to start the year and then they got to keep everything above that amount. Would make $800,000 for showing Africans how to wash their dicks look pretty frivolous in that light.

I support the fair tax or a flat tax. I don't support the current system. But in reality, short of revolution, the current system will never be overhauled. In the current system waste and corruption is endemic.
Old 9/18/10, 11:19 AM
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I wouldn't mind the current tax system if it was actually used to run the government. Instead, it's used for political warfare and buying votes. Tax breaks for this class, tax cuts for this class, taking tax money from Ohio and funneling it to special projects in other states where votes are needed... It's criminal.
But because it's used for political power, those in power will not allow it to change short of a revolution.
Old 10/10/10, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 05GT-O.C.D.
Think of all of the faults of our current tax system. Try and post them all and you'll win the award for longest post ever at TMS. Study The Fair Tax and lists it's faults. If you still feel the prebate system is poor, then that's ok. But look at what we're better off with and realize that this country will never allow to not have a safety net. Like you said... tough decisions. (although this one would actually pretty easy )
Well said John. I'm still sportin that bumper sticker

theres like 20 'he supports a 23% tax increase' negative political ads still spreading the lies about the fairtax and any politician that likes the idea, pisses me off every time I hear one... did get in another conversation with a guy last week, told him no we pay around 33% now in imbedded taxes, AND the fairtax completely eliminates fed income tax and soc.sec. deductions, man did he change his tone- hes all for it, gonna read up on it...if only everyone would do a tiny bit of fact checking before casting their votes this country would be a better place...

think if I put one a sticker up where the front plate is supposed to go I would still get away with no front plate? Man, just for the few weeks prior to the election maybe I'll finally drill out the bumper and put the plate on- and the sticker...or maybe just put the plate in the windshield...hmm...
Old 10/11/10, 07:24 AM
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Hate to complain...but why is this posted in the 2005-2009 Mustang forum? I think there's another forum (off topic chatter) for discussions like this.
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