lol I have extensive experience with both the 500 and Freestyles we now have. Quality is top notch, even our import hi/line wholesale experts(that deal with exclusively 50K+ auctions) think they are excellent. Very impressive vehicles and offer more robust construction BY FAR then anything else remotely in their price classes. Vehicles like higlander and avalon look so lightweight and insubstantial in comparrison.

 

Speaking from a strong background of Hondas and Fords. I must say that Honda's quality is better than Fords, but Ford is improving. My 04 F150 was 100x better than the 03s, but it still had problems just like any other new vehicle. The Mustang will have problems just like any other new car. The manufacturers can't find every problem at the factory.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I think Ford and Chrysler (with Mercedes help) are gaining in a major way on the imports. I hope the new Mustang is the poster child for this.

 

I'm not sure how much Mercedes is going to help besides styling. Those are the biggest pieces of _____.

 

ford quality is getting better. i wouldnt worry too much about the quality

 

well, if for anything, technology. As most know the 300 rides on last gens E class platform which has led to a much better product than the 300m. As well, alot of chrysler products are now using MB trannies and engines as well. I mean come on, they have 7 speed autos in their new cars(MB that is)!!!

Jason

 

Well, I thought I'd add my 2 cents in here. I work for Ford at it's St Thomas Assembly plant, where we build Crown Vics and Grand Marquis. And I can tell you that a car who's doors won't close wouldn't make it out the factory door, let alone all the way to the dealership. I seriously doubt the Five Hundred is built any different. As for the union comments, I can tell you that most off the quality issues with our cars are parts and suppliers problems. Everyone in the union is aware that building a shoddy car will get you unemployed really quick. That's just the nature of the game nowadays. People won't buy crappy cars anymore. And for the idea of "Honda quality"....wow, some of you guys actually believe that crap? Try talking to people who don't care what kind of car they drive, and you'll get a surprising answer to quality questions. Oh, and as a final note: Our plant has won the JD Power award on more than one occasion.....making our Vic's higher quality than most cars on the road, foreign or domestic. I can't imagine how good the new Mustang will be.

 

Quality is on par with all of the competion, and I find Toyota and Nissan in particular incredibly overrated for build robustness and material and engineering technology. I get to spend a lot of time with just about every vehicle out there in the normal market. I have driven fully loaded freestyles and they acellerate more then adequately and easilly to over 100mph, they feel much faster then I thought they would. I even had one loaded with two adults, two children, and myself and the customer was impressed with the performance. 500 outacellerates 300/Avalon/Camry V6's handilly, so much for the rated hp and how its used, especially the incredibly overated tin can camry. Road performance and hadiling is up to German specs for both vehicles, they are phenominal with body roll control, uneven pavement, and ride comfort. It is also being mentioned regularly now that there will be an engine upgrade next year for the sedan/crossover. With 7.4 sec to 60 now, a 250hp cvt will be equivillent to about a 320 hp motor. Its not even ment to be a hi-performance sedan. It outperforms on every level the best selling sedan on the planet already, for less money.

Even as it sits now, the 500 has a $45000 platform that is increased in strength 30% from Volvos version, uses transmissions from $60,000 vehicles(the 6 speed is from the Toureg), has Haldex awd that is the same as volvo/audi/porsche/bmw, etc, and be had well equipped in the SEL trimline with 6-cd/mp3, 8 way power seat, auto load leveling(the exact same system cadillac high end models use), climate control, steering wheel controls, reverse sensing, etc for an incredible MSRP of $26,700. Its an amazing sedan. Just looking at the robustness of the skeleton is evidence enough. Front frame rails are monsterous octagon structures, enourmous bracework to protect the front wheels from intrusion, there are 3 very large roof reinforcements, a revolutionary 3 layer b pillar structure(about twice the metal then the side of a Japanese luxury car at mid-body), an actual 3" diameter strut tower brace with 5/8" mounting bolts and another larger crossmember in the center of the vehicle is a far cry from tiny little doors and subframe members of the average Japanese car. Very large suspension members and even the motor mounts are huge, an avalon or accord on a lift looks like a little toy and just seeing how little they offer in actual metal. An MDX has nothing on a 500 in materials usage, its not even close. Its actually laughable. It may have less gizmos, but it is MUCH more car without going the battlewagon route that DCX used for 300 to attempt for a 'solid' feel. Id rather have 'cheaper' plastics with expensive metal then a padded dash on a tin can.

This is a family car, and it provides so much more for the money then anthing in its class(freestyle as well). Anyone can make a $70k car thats nice, its what you can get from Ford these days for under 27k thats truly impressive. It is not a car with rediculous overengineering like a BMW with $2500 each headlight units to impress your neighbors with your uncanny abillity to make lease payments. Interest is beging to spool up on the new family movers too, the Freestyle we got yesterday was out on at least 25 test drives today alone, the only reason its still here is everyone wants more loaded versions on the way and we are starting to sell the in-transit auto orders from Ford on both vehicles. I have not seen one person who does not like the vehciles. I am pretty picky and would rate build quality top notch. The ballance overall of MSRP versus actuall engineering and features(value) provided to consumers is definatly better then an avalon. It is built MUCH better then a $25k car needs to be built.

 

Honda and toyota are built very well no doubt, but the proceedures used to construct bodysides, door stampings and frames, suspension componets, and other basic engineering aspects are low-budget. It works well for customers who do not ever look at how the door of thier vehicle is constructed. They focus on the visible vehicle rather then the structural vehicle. They build them to pass the expected crash testing, and no more. A focus door is twice as thick, stronger, and uses much more metal then a 4Runners. Look carefully in a Highlander and you can find the masonite panels. The incredible anchor to advancing further in quality and technology from the Nasser years is finally starting to break free for Ford. If you analyze the recent onslaught of completely new products, the timing of everything at the moment, and the new projects spawning up for the next 4 years, you can see how close Ford came to being in big financial trouble.

Nasser couldnt of been axed soon enough. They have just enough window of opportunity now to spend the money to develop high-quality, comptititve and innovative products rather then continuing on the reskinning/rehashing death spiral that Ford's prior leadership had quagmired the company in for years. On the flip side, Fords new push came right at the pique of new computer engineering technology starting in 2002. If they had this 'revolution' say around 1995, the current vehicle platforms would have so little potential now. If they pull these vehicles off for proffits, they dodged a big bullet and have a bright future. Its already starting to look pretty good these days.

 

As for the new Stang, The first vehicle off the assembly line for sale will be better built then any other Mustang that ever rolled on the planet before it.

 

Ford must lead, not follow a trend.

 

And which bridges would those be exactly...?

So the logical question to ask would be: If they're so bad, why did you buy FOUR of them? Something doesn't add up here. Particularly given that the RSX-S is VERY highly rated. :scratch:

"I would compare it to an Audi in quality."

Okay, let's not get carried away here!

JD Powers (who you yourself quote) consistently rank Toyota and Honda above ALL domestic brands, for overall quality.

In my experience, people believe what they want, regardless of whether or not it jives with the proven facts. If you staunchly believe, "Buy American," then you will see Toyota and Honda as crap. But that won't stop both manufacturers from gaining an ever-increasing share of our domestic market, while the "Big Three" die a lengthy and painful death...assuming we take no steps to stop it.

Then who'll have the last laugh?

I'm glad to see Ford making strides to improve quality, excite buyers with appealing cars, and reinvigorate the North American brand perception. Let's hope they can carry it off over the next few years. It would be a nice change.

 

Look. Japanese quality is part truth and part myth.

JD Powers is a consumer thing, which is not an unbiased study. All you have to do is tell people for years through the media that Japanese cars are better, and they'll believe it and respond accordingly. Then you ask them, and they'll say, "oh the Japanese cars are better". And they'll remember Japenese successe and American car failures. That's known as a subjective measure. It has some value, but not as much as many think. So don't put too much stock in it.

There was also a game where American companies had to disclose recalls, while Japanese companies were able to have "silent recalls" and just fix things when you brought them in for normal service. So JD Powers and Americans THOUGHT there were more American car recalls -- when the truth was that Japenese cars had more, they just hid it better.

You said people beleive what they want, and that's true. There were a few people that looked at number of defects, recalls, or tried to objectively compare car makers, and cars were pretty close. In fit and finish there were some differences, but it varies my model and sampling a lot. The point is generalizing a nations auto industry as you did (American cars have problems), is silly (way too general). And is exactly as dumb as those that generalize it as American cars are better. In average, there may be general truth, but what you care about are specifics.

Certainly some car models are better than others. But even if Toyota had a better overall rating, that could be because another company has mostly great cars that beat the Japanese, but a few bad lines that bring their average down. So what you're learning is that Toyota is more consistent, not that they make better cars for most people. It takes a relatively few defects to ruin a line or brands reputation.

Anyways the point is that you need to look at the line your car is coming from, and how that car is rated, and how your individual one is -- not generalize to the entire brand. I don't really care if Honda is ranked better, if I get a lemon, it is a lemon. And if the Stang I get has good quality, then it wouldn't matter if Ford was blowing chunks on the 500. (Not saying either is true).

 

Look. Japanese quality is part truth and part myth.

JD Powers is a consumer thing, which is not an unbiased study. All you have to do is tell people for years through the media that Japanese cars are better, and they'll believe it and respond accordingly. Then you ask them, and they'll say, "oh the Japanese cars are better". And they'll remember Japenese successe and American car failures. That's known as a subjective measure. It has some value, but not as much as many think. So don't put too much stock in it.

There was also a game where American companies had to disclose recalls, while Japanese companies were able to have "silent recalls" and just fix things when you brought them in for normal service. So JD Powers and Americans THOUGHT there were more American car recalls -- when the truth was that Japenese cars had more, they just hid it better.

You said people beleive what they want, and that's true. There were a few people that looked at number of defects, recalls, or tried to objectively compare car makers, and cars were pretty close. In fit and finish there were some differences, but it varies my model and sampling a lot. The point is generalizing a nations auto industry as you did (American cars have problems), is silly (way too general). And is exactly as dumb as those that generalize it as American cars are better. In average, there may be general truth, but what you care about are specifics.

Certainly some car models are better than others. But even if Toyota had a better overall rating, that could be because another company has mostly great cars that beat the Japanese, but a few bad lines that bring their average down. So what you're learning is that Toyota is more consistent, not that they make better cars for most people. It takes a relatively few defects to ruin a line or brands reputation.

Anyways the point is that you need to look at the line your car is coming from, and how that car is rated, and how your individual one is -- not generalize to the entire brand. I don't really care if Honda is ranked better, if I get a lemon, it is a lemon. And if the Stang I get has good quality, then it wouldn't matter if Ford was blowing chunks on the 500. (Not saying either is true).[/b][/quote]
All your argument postulates - and I assume it is an argument - is that facts and figures and statistics can be viewed through whatever prism one happens to favor.

Fair enough.

What CANNOT be debated, however, is the overwhelming evidence that supports GENERALLY superior build quality and fewer recalls coming from Honda and Toyota. And it's not just JD Powers...

...it's Consumer Reports;

...it's Lemonaide;

...it's the consistent opinion of ALL the major automotive journalists;

...it's talking to friends;

...it's evaluating the cars, personally;

...it's a friend who sells Toyotas and has had many customers tell him that they'll never buy another domestic vehicle;

...it's the guy I saw drive up to a Ford dealership in a new Explorer Sport-Trac with yellow balloons suspended from the vehicle, and the word LEMON stencilled in yellow letters on the front and back windows, who couldn't get the dealership to fix several major problems after 17 visits...an experience I've never witnessed at an import dealership!

It's things like this - and more - that cannot be ignored. Are imports perfect? Of course not. But they're better at packaging quality products that consumers want. And that's definitely not in dispute if you look at increasing import and declining domestic sales figures.

It can't ALL be a shared hallucination.

 

Vanilla ice was one of the most popular rappers and musicians, ever. Do you think he was a better musician than Bach or the Beatles, or that public opinion is sometimes wrong? Cockroaches are more common than people, does that make them a higher life form? The National Socialists had popular support, did that make their position moral? Common sense isn't. Popular opinion is drivel. Maybe you want to be the proud bleating member of a flock, but I'll opt to think for myself.

We can all tell each other stories, and we all listen to the ones we want to hear (and remember them better). So I went through three motors on my Subaru, but more people are doing to remember when the door handle fell off on their Cadilac, because it is popular. Double check those recall numbers, when I did about 5 years back, it turned out the numbers were identical between Japanese and American car companies, and that opened my eyes. I talked to friends and found that those with American cars didnt' seem any less happy than those with Japanese or German cars. My wife and I both have BMW's, and while they've held up fairly well, they still had major problems and the exact type of annoyances that many American car makers have; whether your friends or the magazines you read only whine about one or the other. It is about tradeoffs, and individual cars and model runs and lines. Some have better quality, but I care not whether Toyota is considered generally better, but how the model I'm driving, and specifically the car I'm driving, is doing.

And to use your populist is right stuff; Ford sells a heck of a lot of cars. You can't tell me that all the repeat buyers are just ignorant morons that don't know any better?

I've owned American, Japanese and German cars. Probably more Japanese than anything else. (Mostly Honda/Accura). Frankly, far more important than the country of origin is the line and model you choose. And now days, so many cars are made from parts all over the world, I'd have a tough time telling you what company is what. BMW and Japanese make cars in U.S., Ford makes cars or parts in Europe or Japan. And so on. Go to Japan and Europe and talk to many of them, and they like American cars for their quality and reliability (and style).

 

Here's a chance to educate yourself.

Ford beats Mercedes, and there's less an 11% defect difference between Ford and Nissan. (Far less than the difference between Nissan and Toyota). Does this mean that no one should buy 350z's or Mustangs because they are inferior to scions? Of course not!

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/autos/b...bility/?cnn=yes

A good book to read (to give the counter-balance to what you're saying)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...366263?v=glance

Other articles of interest:

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=11824

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r102:S06MY2-132:

Also remember that most quality studies are lagging indicators. This years models could be far better American than Japanese, and it could take 5 or 10 years for that to really turn-around the statistics/perceptions.

I'm not saying American companies don't need improvement, or that Japanese companies make bad cars. Just the hype often far exceeds the reality. Just show a little balance. Picking a car should be based on many things. Choose a car based on that car, and how well it fulfills your needs, including reliability, fit and finish, style, and so on. I'm not loyal to one nations auto-makers, I look for good cars, not matter where they were made -- and realize that silly generalizations are just that.

 

What "problems" did your 04 F-150 have? according to Kevinb120, they are still waiting for something to go wrong with the 150's they have sold. I haven't heard a thing about 150's having the problems "just like any other new vehicle" I almost bought an 04 f-150. :scratch:

 

Not sure what the original poster saw, but I was in looking at buying an F150 this weekend and the dealer had 3 of the 500's. The car was a masterpiece.

Very good quality through and through on all of them.

Don't judge a car line on 1 bad apple.

The new Mustang will be just fine.

 

The Five Hundred does 0-60 in 7.4??? Where did that come from? Car and Driver estimates 8.6-8.8 on their website. The car weighs 300-500lbs more than the Taurus with about the same horsepower. I don't see how 7.4 is possible. The Camry, Avalon, Altima, Accord, all have more power and better acceleration. The 300C has 3 engines, 1 equal to the Five Hundred and 2 that would easily out compete it. I'm waiting to see that 250 HP CTV that will be the equivillent of 320 mustang beating horse power I'm not a troll, I just don't see how any of that was true.

I am a big Mustang fan and really hope the new car is built great. We were an all ford family for a while. The most recent newer ford I've been in is an Expedition, and I think the interior is cheaper and a lot more plasticy than the 98 we had. Instead of a nice one peice soft touch interior door panel, it's now like 8 peices of hard plastic, pretty dissapointing. But the new Mustang looks like it's really nice inside. I can't wait to see it in person. Fomr pictures the outside looks like it's built really well. The antenna is sad though, why oh why do they still use those fender mounted black poles. Ford even knows they are ugly and takes them off in pictures. lol :nono: