silverbullet5.0

Hey everyone just wanted some opinions on whether I should get tires or suspension first. I do occasional autocross so I don't know what will be more towards my benefit, I also already have some amr wheels just don't know if I should hold up on tires.

Brandon302

I would suggest suspension. I went from the Pirelli P Zero's (bull in my opinion) to Kumho Ecsta 4x front and Continental Extreme Contact DWS back. After doing suspension I was faster with All Seasons then with the ultra high po summer tires. I would also make the argument for suspension because you will probably benefit more for the same price but get more from it.

Stage_3

^^This, then tires.

BLACKSTANG13

Both

ConeBoss

I have to disagree here. Tires, will make the biggest difference...assuming you get good ones. The P'Zero has a very soft side wall and really is not that grippy. So they will cause the car to push like crazy and if driven hard the Fronts will be toast after 4-5 Auto-X events...I know from experience. Even if you were to get suspension first, depending on what your upgrading, the car still might not improve much because your tires simply cant hold traction.

My advise, go buy some good tires! Not sure what size wheels you have...hopefully 18's as the choices and costs are far better.

In 18's look for...
Dunlop Direzza Z2 or BF Goodrich Rival

If 19's the Goodyear Eagle F1 supercar is probably your best option.

AlsCobra

I agree about the tires but if your car is at stock height, I would lower it just for aesthetic reasons mainly. Stock is just too high. Don't expect a hell of a lot of gain at the course though. Tires make all the difference. Only once you find a set of tires that stay planted, will you really need more suspension. Too many people will upgrade a suspension system and run stock junk tires.

silverbullet5.0

thanks for the replies guys, I think I might get tires first because after autocrossing this car, the tires just feel too "spongy". No matter how hard i would try I just couldn't make it plant at all. My next question now is how thick should I go 45 or 40?

Tony Alonso

If you do an occasional autocross, spend time getting faster on your stock tires, then switch to the same size tires, assuming you are not changing your wheel sizes.

In my experience, you are better off learning to manage the weight transfer by smoothing your steering and braking inputs to balance at the edge of grip until you can consistently do this.

When you say "plant", are you saying you noticed a squirming feeling when you were changing directions and that you are looking to lessen that sensation?

silverbullet5.0

When I would exit corners or come into long straights I had to really baby the gas pedal because it would not grip whatsoever, the wheels would just start screeching and spinning. When I mean baby it I mean only half pedal. I'm really hating the stock tires. I could even feel all the flex in them during corners adding to the heavy body roll the car has.

Tony Alonso

You can get that with stickier tires too I assume you turned off your traction and stability control, correct? The trick is to not slow down so much that you stomp back on the pedal to get the speed up again. Having stickier tires will help when you are turning into and through the corner, but with a high torque engine, you can easily overwhelm the grip available and break traction pretty quickly.


What size are your tires?

silverbullet5.0

the thing is that the courses here are set up with too many tight hairpins preceded by long straights. The problem is that you must slow down almost to a stop to make it through, to make things worse there are cone bordering the outside of the corners but real tight making it hard for a car this size. Lots of the smaller cars fair well such as miatas and corvettes. My tires are 235/50/18.

Tony Alonso

A smaller size and turning radius really is what helps a car through this type of arrangement. Also, having the proper racing line (wide the right before the turn, hit the lower half of the hairpin in the middle, then wide to the right again) is what keeps your momentum. Miatas are small enough they don't have to slow down as much, and recent Corvettes have stock suspensions and steering which are configured well (plus, very good front-rear weight balance).

A stickier tire would likely help you enter the corner with a higher speed so you don't slide (slows down your time), but practicing this type of corner over and over would likely help more.

As others have noted, you are more likely going to see a big-for-the-buck with a grippier tire (your time would hopefully come down by several seconds, depending on the course). However, the S197 cars are just big for a typical autocross course, and there's a lot of pronounced weight transfer going on with the stock suspension.

I suggest consistency in your mastering the dynamics of your stock suspension and tires, followed by grippier tires, followed by suspension would move your toward being more competitive. I've seen enough people throw hardware at their cars and still have times that weren't in the running simply because they weren't smooth and overloaded the suspension and slide.

Once you start messing with suspensions, however, it gets more involved because you can be bumped out of a stock class where then you definitely start down the path of spending more time and money and chasing tenths and hundredths of a second


PS - I think ConeBoss's post makes a great point!

silverbullet5.0

Thanks for the replies everyone, I think I just need some getting used to with this s197 platform. I used to be very competitive in autocross with a Mazda 3 hatch (non turbo) I could actually make the same times as many higher end cars as BMWs porches wrxs and STIs.
I will try the tires and see how it goes.

Brandon302

Silver, not to sway you from the auto x's, because as stated above they can really improve your understanding of the car but at low speeds so the danger is a lot less than on a track. However, I would suggest also trying a track day with the local SCCA/NASA or another car club, they are also extremely addicting.

Tony Alonso

Ah, now I see your situation better. You had a different frame of reference. When I have driven my wife's previous MINI Cooper, I could immediately tell how the quick steering and smaller size would pay big dividends on lap times. I was used to Mustangs first (the initial one for autocross being a '96 Cobra).

I am fairly sure you can find lots of information on the latest models that might be well suited to autocross applications be searching SCCA forums or The Tire Rack website.

Tony Alonso

They are fun, and road courses provide that all-too-precious room for the bigger cars to exercise their tuning.

Of course, then you start getting into worrying more about brakes because of the speed differential. However, what a blast to hit the apex and carry through your momentum with a pointed and controlled stab of the brakes while yelling "yahoo"

Brandon302

The speed is probably the best part of it, driving at the limit or at least trying to. You are right though, making sure you can stop in time is always fun.

ConeBoss

I have only open tracked my Stang once when it was basically stock...and it was scary fun. But that track day cost me $150 entry, which was super cheap for a track day. Plus $60 in gas...$80 if you count the drive to the track and back.

A typical Auto-X event will cost $50 and wear and tear on the car is minimal. Is it as much fun...maybe not. But it is still very fun!

I used to do the occasional Auto-X and save my money for 3-4 track days a year. But since really committing to Auto-X I find my skills as a driver have progressed significantly faster. I can think of no safer/cheaper environment to hone ones skills and learn the limits of their car. Also, once you get to know folks in your Auto-X community it becomes pretty easy to swap rides or barrow someone else's car for a run or two. Something that will rarely or ever happen on a full race course...unless you pay for it.

bob

I had the opposite experience on an older GT, I swapped the suspension and it provided a nice improvement but the change from all-seasons to summer tires that were a little wider provided a dramatic improvement.

The suspension swap improved the high speed capabilities of the car (mainly how it handled rough roads at very high speeds) The tires on the other hand really improved overall grip.