VERY IMPORTANT.....the engine oil, and other fluids, you need to use!
9/1/11, 11:03 AM
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VERY IMPORTANT.....the engine oil, and other fluids, you need to use!
I have personally talked to, on the phone, an important person at Ford Racing who is VERY involved with the Boss development as well as all the race stuff. They told me to only run 5w50. There are parts in the motor that are designed to operate on a specific oil pressure. The 5w50 was designed to be used in the motor.... Do the math. I was told the motocraft 5w50 is a high quality oil. This was confirmed by someone I trust at Rehagen Racing...
I was also told that the motocraft dot4 brake fluid as well as the transmission and rear gear fluid are also very high quality and this person would absolutely run these fluids in their personal car.
Now I am a person who believes in using the best fluids available. I almost never use OEM fluid in any of my cars. However after my discussion with this person and their answers, reasons, explanations, etc I am sold on the OEM fluids I talked about in this post. I will personally continue to use the OEM fluids.
Please pay attention to what I wrote about the engine oil. 5w50 is the only way to go! This is very important. I have seen some talk about people trying to use all sort of different weights. I hope this info is helpful. I will say that my conversation with this person was extremely valuable, and we will be talking some more....
I was also told that the motocraft dot4 brake fluid as well as the transmission and rear gear fluid are also very high quality and this person would absolutely run these fluids in their personal car.
Now I am a person who believes in using the best fluids available. I almost never use OEM fluid in any of my cars. However after my discussion with this person and their answers, reasons, explanations, etc I am sold on the OEM fluids I talked about in this post. I will personally continue to use the OEM fluids.
Please pay attention to what I wrote about the engine oil. 5w50 is the only way to go! This is very important. I have seen some talk about people trying to use all sort of different weights. I hope this info is helpful. I will say that my conversation with this person was extremely valuable, and we will be talking some more....
9/1/11, 11:09 AM
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The 5.0 in the GT's uses a 5w20 for engine oil. Reason for the 5w50 is the higher sustained engine oil temps the Boss will see at track events. I am using Amsoils 15w50 racing oil, Dot4 brake fluid, and transmission and gear oil.
9/1/11, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by NCETRY
The 5.0 in the GT's uses a 5w20 for engine oil. Reason for the 5w50 is the higher sustained engine oil temps the Boss will see at track events. I am using Amsoils 15w50 racing oil, Dot4 brake fluid, and transmission and gear oil.
9/1/11, 12:29 PM
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I have personally talked to, on the phone, an important person at Ford Racing who is VERY involved with the Boss development as well as all the race stuff. They told me to only run 5w50. There are parts in the motor that are designed to operate on a specific oil pressure. The 5w50 was designed to be used in the motor.... Do the math. I was told the motocraft 5w50 is a high quality oil. This was confirmed by someone I trust at Rehagen Racing...
I was also told that the motocraft dot4 brake fluid as well as the transmission and rear gear fluid are also very high quality and this person would absolutely run these fluids in their personal car.
Now I am a person who believes in using the best fluids available. I almost never use OEM fluid in any of my cars. However after my discussion with this person and their answers, reasons, explanations, etc I am sold on the OEM fluids I talked about in this post. I will personally continue to use the OEM fluids.
Please pay attention to what I wrote about the engine oil. 5w50 is the only way to go! This is very important. I have seen some talk about people trying to use all sort of different weights. I hope this info is helpful. I will say that my conversation with this person was extremely valuable, and we will be talking some more....
I was also told that the motocraft dot4 brake fluid as well as the transmission and rear gear fluid are also very high quality and this person would absolutely run these fluids in their personal car.
Now I am a person who believes in using the best fluids available. I almost never use OEM fluid in any of my cars. However after my discussion with this person and their answers, reasons, explanations, etc I am sold on the OEM fluids I talked about in this post. I will personally continue to use the OEM fluids.
Please pay attention to what I wrote about the engine oil. 5w50 is the only way to go! This is very important. I have seen some talk about people trying to use all sort of different weights. I hope this info is helpful. I will say that my conversation with this person was extremely valuable, and we will be talking some more....
5.0 Mustangs magazine, Aug 2011 issue, pg. 58 talks about Ford moving to the 5W-50 for those certain reasons.
9/1/11, 01:40 PM
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So explain. The cams turn at half the rpm of the crank.
Why does the RoadRunner need heavier oil (just for the cams as you say) when the standard Coyote is ok with 20?
Does it have to do with heat dissipation because of the sodium filled valves?
Or does it need a bit more resistance up top for the lighter valvetrain components to avoid float at max rpm's (3750)?
Or does it also have to do with its (heavier) forged bottom end components & pistons? Maybe to offset piston heat with the deletion of oil squirters?
Or a combination of all of the above?
I'm curious.
Race temps would definitely thin the 5w-20 viscosity to the point the valvetrain lubrication & pressure is inadequate IMO, so I think the 5w-50 spec for the RoadRunner still comes back to sustained track temperatures like ncetry says.
Also, I would think 15w-xx is too heavy for cold starts for the valvetrain. (I run that in my 83 F150 4.9L I6 - which has sloppy tolerance compared to today's machining.) And actualy usage with regular testing shows amsoil 5w-30 thickens substantially. Is that the same for the 15w-50? Or are you just guessing/hoping?
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/amsoil.html
If Ford specs 5w-50, that's what should be run.
***
And yes, it is the same basic engine. Except it has been modded at the factory to race specs.
Fundamentally the RoadRunner engine is an extension of the Coyote.
The new Boss rod is identical to the Coyote rod dimensionally and is still pressed from powdered metal, but uses a higher grade metal and has been beefed up with extra material here and there.
Yes, the Boss 302 head is fundamentally a Coyote head.
In the Boss 302, the extra strength is needed both on the fire-deck side of the head against the RoadRunner's increased cylinder pressures, and on the valvespring side of the casting where the higher speeds and greater spring pressures must be resisted. This is especially true around the lash-adjuster bore that now has reduced deflection, even under the Boss's higher valvespring pressures. The faster heat transfer comes in handy in keeping the Boss cool under severe racetrack conditions.
It really didn't take much new hardware to meet those goals. Of course, the Coyote valvetrain architecture had just been well laid out for performance to begin with.
No changes were necessary to the roller-finger followers (rocker arms) or lash adjusters. "We didn't do anything unique for Boss," Kevin said.
Like the intake valve, the intake camshaft needed no changes and was carried over from the Coyote.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...2/viewall.html
The new Boss rod is identical to the Coyote rod dimensionally and is still pressed from powdered metal, but uses a higher grade metal and has been beefed up with extra material here and there.
Yes, the Boss 302 head is fundamentally a Coyote head.
In the Boss 302, the extra strength is needed both on the fire-deck side of the head against the RoadRunner's increased cylinder pressures, and on the valvespring side of the casting where the higher speeds and greater spring pressures must be resisted. This is especially true around the lash-adjuster bore that now has reduced deflection, even under the Boss's higher valvespring pressures. The faster heat transfer comes in handy in keeping the Boss cool under severe racetrack conditions.
It really didn't take much new hardware to meet those goals. Of course, the Coyote valvetrain architecture had just been well laid out for performance to begin with.
No changes were necessary to the roller-finger followers (rocker arms) or lash adjusters. "We didn't do anything unique for Boss," Kevin said.
Like the intake valve, the intake camshaft needed no changes and was carried over from the Coyote.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...2/viewall.html
Last edited by cdynaco; 9/1/11 at 02:44 PM.
9/1/11, 02:27 PM
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I did read it right.... He stated the 5w50 is needed because of temps. This is not true. It is needed to run the correct oil pressure. I am sure it is a consideration for temps, but you could use a variety of different weighs to address this. I am not an engineer or engine builder but it has to do with something involving the camshafts that is mechanicaly operated by oil pressure. There are examples of race teams, who have the same motor, running a different oil weight and they blew the oil filter off during a race as a result of too high of oil pressure...
All those things you mentioned are not the main reason for the need to run the 5w50. It is oil pressure.
Two motors with different internals, different heads, and a different intake require different needs. Them being from a basic architecture isn't a point in this discussion. These are two different motors...
This info is coming from someone involved in the developement of the motor as well as who ran an entire race season on one motor that was never torn down...
All those things you mentioned are not the main reason for the need to run the 5w50. It is oil pressure.
Two motors with different internals, different heads, and a different intake require different needs. Them being from a basic architecture isn't a point in this discussion. These are two different motors...
This info is coming from someone involved in the developement of the motor as well as who ran an entire race season on one motor that was never torn down...
Last edited by adam81; 9/1/11 at 02:46 PM.
9/1/11, 02:36 PM
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I did read it right.... He stated the 5w50 is needed because of temps. This is not true. It is needed to run the correct oil pressure. I am not an engineer or engine builder but it has to do with something involving the camshafts. There are examples of race teams, who have the same motor, running a different oil weight and they blew the oil filter off as a result of too high of oil pressure.
This info is coming from someone who ran an entire race season on one motor that was never torn down.....
This info is coming from someone who ran an entire race season on one motor that was never torn down.....
Don't misunderstand, I'm not doubting or harrassing you. I'm just trying to get some deeper insights from your discussion. This thinking mind never sleeps.
Last edited by cdynaco; 9/1/11 at 02:45 PM.
9/1/11, 02:43 PM
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On the regular 5.0 they use piston oil squirters, Those are deleted, and the bleed holes were closed,: on the Boss 5.0 the extra oil pressure is utilized to gain pressure and restore volume to bearings,
Oil was thickened to 5w-50 those 2 combined gave pressure needed to force out oil to rod bearings at 7,500 RPM,
This info was from Aug 5.0&Super Fords Magazine.
Oil was thickened to 5w-50 those 2 combined gave pressure needed to force out oil to rod bearings at 7,500 RPM,
This info was from Aug 5.0&Super Fords Magazine.
Last edited by UnrealFord; 9/1/11 at 02:53 PM.
9/1/11, 02:51 PM
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No worries I am not taking it personally. I did not say that a 20 weight blew the oil filter off... I am saying a different oil weight than what was recommended did. I am assuming what was used was a heavier racing oil.
Again it is needed because of a certain oil pressure range for a mechanical operation of the motor that is operated soley on the correct oil pressure. Not a minimum or maximum point. Change the oil weight and the pressure may or may not change. I don't know what those numbers are, but after knowing this I don't want my oil pressure to change... I will stick with the high quality OEM.
It all has to do with the mechanical operation of the engine parts that are operated by the oil pressure.
Again it is needed because of a certain oil pressure range for a mechanical operation of the motor that is operated soley on the correct oil pressure. Not a minimum or maximum point. Change the oil weight and the pressure may or may not change. I don't know what those numbers are, but after knowing this I don't want my oil pressure to change... I will stick with the high quality OEM.
It all has to do with the mechanical operation of the engine parts that are operated by the oil pressure.
Last edited by adam81; 9/1/11 at 02:54 PM.
9/1/11, 02:55 PM
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No worries I am not taking it personally. I did not say that a 20 weight blew the oil filter off... I am saying a different oil weight than what was recommended did. I am assuming what was used was a heavier racing oil.
Again it is needed because of a certain oil pressure range for a mechanical operation of the motor that is operated soley on the correct oil pressure. Not a minimum or maximum point. Change the oil weight and the pressure may or may not change. I don't know what those numbers are, but after knowing this I don't want my oil pressure to change... I will stick with the high quality OEM.
It all has to do with the mechanical operation of the engine parts that are operated by the oil pressure.
Again it is needed because of a certain oil pressure range for a mechanical operation of the motor that is operated soley on the correct oil pressure. Not a minimum or maximum point. Change the oil weight and the pressure may or may not change. I don't know what those numbers are, but after knowing this I don't want my oil pressure to change... I will stick with the high quality OEM.
It all has to do with the mechanical operation of the engine parts that are operated by the oil pressure.
9/1/11, 03:00 PM
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Even with the change in exhaust cam engine architecture is the same. And Ford is going to want to sell there own product. So far the car has been fine with the Amsoil product I am using. Made 391 to the wheels and has run a 11.79@116. Maybe you could come out with some specifics.
Until the Boss engine only the 5.4 engines using the Cobra R/GT heads needed a 5w50 oil and from what I was told it was due to the smaller size lifters used.
Besides I now have ARH long tube headers, JLT cold air and tune and I am sure Ford don't recomend that.
Until the Boss engine only the 5.4 engines using the Cobra R/GT heads needed a 5w50 oil and from what I was told it was due to the smaller size lifters used.
Besides I now have ARH long tube headers, JLT cold air and tune and I am sure Ford don't recomend that.
9/1/11, 03:03 PM
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Oops - I got it.
***
On a side note, some of the older TMS members remember 'Groot' posting before the 09 Labor Day crash. After a few months though Ford asked him to stop and he asked to have his posts deleted. I saved a few somewhere. And here he shows up on the Boss team.
Still, significant improvements were realized, among them a long-standing wish for a staggered-tire fitment and a quality limited-slip differential. To a chassis engineer such as Kevin Groot, the tire is key. "... [since] long ago, we in [vehicle] dynamics have been asking for staggered-fitment tires.
Read more: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...#ixzz1Wjk5asYI
Read more: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...#ixzz1Wjk5asYI
Last edited by cdynaco; 9/1/11 at 03:09 PM.
9/1/11, 03:07 PM
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I did. Read the testing link. The 5w-30 became about a straight 40w by the end of the test according to the lab results. (Overall they liked it except for that.) Don't know about the 15w-50. Maybe you could do a test thread with sample results?
But don't misunderstand - I'm not knocking amsoil and don't want to turn the thread into a brand argument. Use what you want.
But don't misunderstand - I'm not knocking amsoil and don't want to turn the thread into a brand argument. Use what you want.
Last edited by cdynaco; 9/1/11 at 03:14 PM.
9/1/11, 03:26 PM
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There may be some confusion. I was not told to use MOTOCRAFT 5w50. I was told to use 5w50... The person said that the motocraft 5w50 is a great product. I have no reason to use any other 5w50 than the motocraft.
9/1/11, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NCETRY
Even with the change in exhaust cam engine architecture is the same. And Ford is going to want to sell there own product. So far the car has been fine with the Amsoil product I am using. Made 391 to the wheels and has run a 11.79@116. Maybe you could come out with some specifics.
Until the Boss engine only the 5.4 engines using the Cobra R/GT heads needed a 5w50 oil and from what I was told it was due to the smaller size lifters used.
Besides I now have ARH long tube headers, JLT cold air and tune and I am sure Ford don't recomend that.
Until the Boss engine only the 5.4 engines using the Cobra R/GT heads needed a 5w50 oil and from what I was told it was due to the smaller size lifters used.
Besides I now have ARH long tube headers, JLT cold air and tune and I am sure Ford don't recomend that.
9/1/11, 03:56 PM
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Oops - I got it.
***
On a side note, some of the older TMS members remember 'Groot' posting before the 09 Labor Day crash. After a few months though Ford asked him to stop and he asked to have his posts deleted. I saved a few somewhere. And here he shows up on the Boss team.
