Tires
5/27/11, 04:20 PM
#61
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how about the race teams?
anyone know what the guys actually racing these cars are running in terms of stagger. I thought I recalled the Rehagan racing guys running square....as well as the Griggs cars.
5/27/11, 04:53 PM
#62
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The race cars, 302R and S, have different suspension. Not sure if anyone has raced a Boss 302 yet. The only thing our cars share with the R & S is the engine.
5/27/11, 05:31 PM
#63
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I ran 3 30-minute sessions today with the Pirelli Pzero Corsas. I'm very impressed and never felt I was running out of grip - even when it rained the last two runs. I know everyone has their own personal preference, but after today these tires are mine.
5/27/11, 05:39 PM
#64
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I'll take a look tomorrow. They have one of their Boss 302Rs out here at VIR.
I ran 3 30-minute sessions today with the Pirelli Pzero Corsas. I'm very impressed and never felt I was running out of grip - even when it rained the last two runs. I know everyone has their own personal preference, but after today these tires are mine.
I ran 3 30-minute sessions today with the Pirelli Pzero Corsas. I'm very impressed and never felt I was running out of grip - even when it rained the last two runs. I know everyone has their own personal preference, but after today these tires are mine.
5/27/11, 05:42 PM
#65
I am sure Gary does not want me quoting him as the ultimate authority on racing but he is one of the few that has racked up time on the production Boss and I value his experience. What he found with the Boss was a square setup let to oversteer.
I hope he does not mind my quoting him but this is good info for beginners like my self in emails we passed back and forth.
Well, like I said earlier, you don’t want to run square, especially if you are just starting out on the track. A square setup in the Boss WILL oversteer. I’m going to write a little about car control that you may already know. If so, I apologize, but I’m not sure how much track experience you have so I’ll throw it out there. Most cars come setup from the manufacturer to understeer. Why? Understeering is preferable to oversteering for a novice, or for the average driver on the street. The car will essentially “push” through a corner if you are going too fast. While you still may slide off track, you’ll do so in a more controlled manner, plus you’ll still see where you’re going. Oversteer is when the front end turns, but the back end starts to come around on you. This is corrected by turning into the skid, and reducing throttle. Of course there’s lift-throttle oversteer that can bring the rear around, and with experience you can use the throttle to actually turn the car. The problem with oversteer, especially for novice drivers, is that it happens quickly and often unexpectedly. You end up spinning out which can lead to bad things. If you have cars close behind you, they may have a hard time avoiding you, or you could just go off track backwards out of control.
I have run both setups on the Boss and I have it from a “reliable source” that the Boss suspension is designed for a staggered setup. I’m amazed at how well it turns-in compared to my GT500. There is already oversteer designed into the car particularly from the massive rear sway bar. If you want to run square, get a 22mm Mustang GT sway bar.
Gary went on to say that he sold his square setup he bought for the Boss. At this point I still tried to convince him that I could start on a square set - twice more, lol. One thing he wrote stuck with me (but there was others).
Ultimately he got into my thick skull (talking about me not you or anyone else
) and I got a staggered set. He explained what Rick said about the race teams having the suspension turned different and a team of guys to work on it all night and day.
There may be others out there with more time in a factory rolled out Boss on the track but no one else on the boards writing about it and passing on the trial and error, let alone his other time in a S197. I took that into account and follow his recommendations.
The square setup may work for you, seriously I do not know, I just wanted to pass this on for all to read. I will let Gary chime in when he gets a chance.
I hope he does not mind my quoting him but this is good info for beginners like my self in emails we passed back and forth.
Well, like I said earlier, you don’t want to run square, especially if you are just starting out on the track. A square setup in the Boss WILL oversteer. I’m going to write a little about car control that you may already know. If so, I apologize, but I’m not sure how much track experience you have so I’ll throw it out there. Most cars come setup from the manufacturer to understeer. Why? Understeering is preferable to oversteering for a novice, or for the average driver on the street. The car will essentially “push” through a corner if you are going too fast. While you still may slide off track, you’ll do so in a more controlled manner, plus you’ll still see where you’re going. Oversteer is when the front end turns, but the back end starts to come around on you. This is corrected by turning into the skid, and reducing throttle. Of course there’s lift-throttle oversteer that can bring the rear around, and with experience you can use the throttle to actually turn the car. The problem with oversteer, especially for novice drivers, is that it happens quickly and often unexpectedly. You end up spinning out which can lead to bad things. If you have cars close behind you, they may have a hard time avoiding you, or you could just go off track backwards out of control.
I have run both setups on the Boss and I have it from a “reliable source” that the Boss suspension is designed for a staggered setup. I’m amazed at how well it turns-in compared to my GT500. There is already oversteer designed into the car particularly from the massive rear sway bar. If you want to run square, get a 22mm Mustang GT sway bar.
don’t you think you’d develop bad habits that would be harder to correct later? The Boss suspension is tuned for a staggered set of wheels/tires. If you run square you will have to compensate and you won’t be driving the car the best way.
) and I got a staggered set. He explained what Rick said about the race teams having the suspension turned different and a team of guys to work on it all night and day. There may be others out there with more time in a factory rolled out Boss on the track but no one else on the boards writing about it and passing on the trial and error, let alone his other time in a S197. I took that into account and follow his recommendations.
The square setup may work for you, seriously I do not know, I just wanted to pass this on for all to read. I will let Gary chime in when he gets a chance.
Last edited by 2012YellowBoss; 5/27/11 at 05:50 PM.
5/27/11, 05:56 PM
#66
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I haven't run the stock Pzeros on the track, just on the street. However, there is a noticeable difference, especially after the Corsas get warmed up. I can see where some of the improved lap times by the LS could be attributed from the tires. I haven't driven an LS to compare the rest of the car though.
5/27/11, 08:30 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by 5 DOT 0
Gary was out tracking his Boss today and I'm sure he'll be along later this evening to explain.
The race cars, 302R and S, have different suspension. Not sure if anyone has raced a Boss 302 yet. The only thing our cars share with the R & S is the engine.
The race cars, 302R and S, have different suspension. Not sure if anyone has raced a Boss 302 yet. The only thing our cars share with the R & S is the engine.
5/28/11, 05:50 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by nota4re
If you get down this way, stop by the house as we typically have 4-5 examples of this one Ford model hang'n around...
<img src="https://themustangsource.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88378"/>
<img src="https://themustangsource.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88379"/>
<img src="https://themustangsource.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88378"/>
<img src="https://themustangsource.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=88379"/>
5/28/11, 08:50 AM
#70
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Read more: http://www.worldcarfans.com/11012132...#ixzz1NeuHyGgx "
We don't have this in our cars, but with enough money one could change it out I suppose.
5/28/11, 09:00 AM
#71
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hey, I haven't driven the car, so I'll wait to judge until I do.
I don't think the issue is how much rubber one has on the rear, but how how much total tire patch (or 'rubber') you have and how it's distributed. a 275 square setup gives more total tire patch than the stock setup.
(and, if you were to judge purely based on 'how much rubber you have on the rear, I'm pretty confident a 275 star spec is going to give you more grip that the stock tire in a 285)
I'm very much on board with respecting what's been engineered into the boss. But I'm also well-aware that nearly every performance car maker delivers cars with a tendency toward understeer as opposed to oversteer. This mostly comes down to driver safety / liability...it's believed to be safer for the average driver of these cars to have them understeer vs. oversteer. And when I say 'average' driver, I'm talking about the kind of person flying around the streets or doing casual DE's who's never spent one day in an actual driving school, read a book on the subject, etc. Because, let's face it, that's what a lot of people do. And I see lots of cars doing very well at the track with square setups that were delivered as staggered setups. e36 bmw's, boxster / cayman, evo / sti's. And there's the added benefit of being able to rotate them front-to-back.
All the reviews I've read suggest that the boss is a very well-balanced (neutral steering) machine...so I'm not saying that I know the square is better, but I am going to be trying it for the track. I don't think it's a matter of Gary being right or wrong...I'm pretty sure he's right for him. And he may be right for most drivers...maybe even for me. Different tastes are possible, and I tend to like a car the rotates pretty quickly...coming out of mid-engined cars for most of my track driving experience. So we'll see. that's half the fun...getting the car dialed in to best suit your preferences.
I don't think the issue is how much rubber one has on the rear, but how how much total tire patch (or 'rubber') you have and how it's distributed. a 275 square setup gives more total tire patch than the stock setup.
(and, if you were to judge purely based on 'how much rubber you have on the rear, I'm pretty confident a 275 star spec is going to give you more grip that the stock tire in a 285)
I'm very much on board with respecting what's been engineered into the boss. But I'm also well-aware that nearly every performance car maker delivers cars with a tendency toward understeer as opposed to oversteer. This mostly comes down to driver safety / liability...it's believed to be safer for the average driver of these cars to have them understeer vs. oversteer. And when I say 'average' driver, I'm talking about the kind of person flying around the streets or doing casual DE's who's never spent one day in an actual driving school, read a book on the subject, etc. Because, let's face it, that's what a lot of people do. And I see lots of cars doing very well at the track with square setups that were delivered as staggered setups. e36 bmw's, boxster / cayman, evo / sti's. And there's the added benefit of being able to rotate them front-to-back.
All the reviews I've read suggest that the boss is a very well-balanced (neutral steering) machine...so I'm not saying that I know the square is better, but I am going to be trying it for the track. I don't think it's a matter of Gary being right or wrong...I'm pretty sure he's right for him. And he may be right for most drivers...maybe even for me. Different tastes are possible, and I tend to like a car the rotates pretty quickly...coming out of mid-engined cars for most of my track driving experience. So we'll see. that's half the fun...getting the car dialed in to best suit your preferences.
I do want to make a big disclaimer, I am not a suspension expert! I am just trying to share my experience with the Boss so far and try to help others learn from my "mistakes". I know I'd appreciate the same from any of you guys and that's what I see as the value of these forums. Yesterday down at MAM, we started in rain. The car rotated very quickly
when I found the edge and it was almost always oversteer. It dried out late morning and we had a great day. I ran within .012 of my best lap time ever in the GT500 and my tires were on their last legs. (corded my last session). With TracKey and a little more seat time I'll be running faster no doubt. 80% of the time I found the edge yesterday it was overrotating. This was with a 12.48" rear and 11.22" front.Everyone should try what they want and match to their driving style
Bottom line, this is a Mustang that turns
5/28/11, 09:44 AM
#72
Bullitt Member
As in previous posts we agree, most track newcomers should spend their time, energy and money gaining experience in the car (seat time) to develop a style before going out an moding this or that, buying different offset rims, trying new R compound tires, etc, etc. The car may possess innate handling characteristics which fit your "style" as driven off the show room floor.
5/28/11, 10:39 AM
#73
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thanks for that Gary
honestly, I don't care if I had to run it on spare tire 'donuts'...I'm just so eager to get my car!
and I agree that one of the great things about fora such as these is to share actual knowledge from actual setups...so thanks for sharing yours.
there is no doubt that seat time is invaluable...and here, like every other forum for every other vehicle, there tends to be a focus on modding the car versus modding the driver.
I'm a big fan of driving schools. for those that are serious about tracking their cars, I'd highly recommend you invest in some school time. there are many very good ones...they're expensive but I think they're really valuable. and when you add up the real costs of tracking your own car...they start looking a lot more reasonable! or, at least, pick up books / videos....skip barber's 'Going Faster' video is a really good one.
I have skip barber and jim russell close to me...both at very technically demanding courses (laguna and sears point respectively). but there's likely one near just about anyone. bondurant (phoenix) does a really good job...I really enjoyed their classes.
I'm doing another 2-day class at skip barber in june...2 days in their formula cars at laguna is tough to beat...especially when they run their big promotions around christmas time...I got a 30% off coupon last year.
the cars are <150hp, but they also weight <1,500 lbs wet...sequential gearboxes and no ABS, tons of lateral grip. they're a really exciting little car to drive.
and I agree that one of the great things about fora such as these is to share actual knowledge from actual setups...so thanks for sharing yours.
there is no doubt that seat time is invaluable...and here, like every other forum for every other vehicle, there tends to be a focus on modding the car versus modding the driver.
I'm a big fan of driving schools. for those that are serious about tracking their cars, I'd highly recommend you invest in some school time. there are many very good ones...they're expensive but I think they're really valuable. and when you add up the real costs of tracking your own car...they start looking a lot more reasonable! or, at least, pick up books / videos....skip barber's 'Going Faster' video is a really good one.
I have skip barber and jim russell close to me...both at very technically demanding courses (laguna and sears point respectively). but there's likely one near just about anyone. bondurant (phoenix) does a really good job...I really enjoyed their classes.
I'm doing another 2-day class at skip barber in june...2 days in their formula cars at laguna is tough to beat...especially when they run their big promotions around christmas time...I got a 30% off coupon last year.
the cars are <150hp, but they also weight <1,500 lbs wet...sequential gearboxes and no ABS, tons of lateral grip. they're a really exciting little car to drive.
5/28/11, 02:22 PM
#74
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Couldn't agree more about the value of a good track school. Spring Mountain Corvette school is a great place to learn and easy to get to. Just 60 miles from Vegas. You get a good mix of classroom, skid pad and track. I learned more there in 3 days than anywhere else. They have great instructors and teach you so many skills that you can continue to practice and hone on the street and track.
5/28/11, 03:42 PM
#75
Bullitt Member
Spring Mountain is a great track. Beautiful scenery as well. Been there in the passenger seat with a Factory Ford driver in a pre-release 5.0 track pac. We were passing intermediate level GT3's pretty easily. OE pirelli tires to boot.
At this point I knew the new Mustang was going to be a performer....!
At this point I knew the new Mustang was going to be a performer....!
5/28/11, 03:48 PM
#76
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Spring Mountain is a great track. Beautiful scenery as well. Been there in the passenger seat with a Factory Ford driver in a pre-release 5.0 track pac. We were passing intermediate level GT3's pretty easily. OE pirelli tires to boot.
At this point I knew the new Mustang was going to be a performer....!
At this point I knew the new Mustang was going to be a performer....!
5/29/11, 01:07 PM
#77
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Let me appologize up front for the length of this post, but it's hard to condense this info.
The NT05 comes highly recommended from people who do HPDE in Corvettes so we have them on our 00 Vette and they are holding up very well. We attend a HP school called Driver's Edge that consists of 8 20 minute sessions on the track and 6 classroom sessions spread over 2 days. The track sessions have an instructor seated next to you. There are a lot of people with different cars running these tire.
The BOSS will be attending it's first weekend at school on July 30-31.
I was considering ordering NT05s for the BOSS using the 19x9 and 19x10 302S wheels, but size may become an issue. On the vette it was recommended we bump up, but I can't do that with the NT05s on the BOSS. I'm not sure how dropping from 255 to 245 and 285 to 275 would affect the car.
The instructor's at DE do not recommend we start with racing tires, but use some version of street tire to get to know the characteristics of the vehicle better with the type of tire you will be driving on the most. Once you've gotten through levels green and blue and hit levels orange and red, then you step up to racing tires.
We jerked the Goodyear F-1 Supercars off our 07 Vette after just 6000 miles because in temps below 50 or on wet roads they make the car act as if it's on an ice skating rink. This car now runs Michelin PS AS ZPs and is a totally different car. The Michelin PSC tire is expensive but is the OEM choice on many Porches and the ZR1...they grip.
The next most recommended tire to us has been the Hankook: Ventus V12 Evo K110, but you have to watch the pressure build up close on these or they'll turn on you.
Hope this helps some. A guy who races a C5 Corvette put together a Corvette Tracking Do's and Don'ts book to try and help others save some money by not making the same mistakes he has made over the years. He has a list of various HP tires and his experiences with them and so far the tires we've seen on cars at the track are at the top of his list.
The NT05 comes highly recommended from people who do HPDE in Corvettes so we have them on our 00 Vette and they are holding up very well. We attend a HP school called Driver's Edge that consists of 8 20 minute sessions on the track and 6 classroom sessions spread over 2 days. The track sessions have an instructor seated next to you. There are a lot of people with different cars running these tire.
The BOSS will be attending it's first weekend at school on July 30-31.
I was considering ordering NT05s for the BOSS using the 19x9 and 19x10 302S wheels, but size may become an issue. On the vette it was recommended we bump up, but I can't do that with the NT05s on the BOSS. I'm not sure how dropping from 255 to 245 and 285 to 275 would affect the car.
The instructor's at DE do not recommend we start with racing tires, but use some version of street tire to get to know the characteristics of the vehicle better with the type of tire you will be driving on the most. Once you've gotten through levels green and blue and hit levels orange and red, then you step up to racing tires.
We jerked the Goodyear F-1 Supercars off our 07 Vette after just 6000 miles because in temps below 50 or on wet roads they make the car act as if it's on an ice skating rink. This car now runs Michelin PS AS ZPs and is a totally different car. The Michelin PSC tire is expensive but is the OEM choice on many Porches and the ZR1...they grip.
The next most recommended tire to us has been the Hankook: Ventus V12 Evo K110, but you have to watch the pressure build up close on these or they'll turn on you.
Hope this helps some. A guy who races a C5 Corvette put together a Corvette Tracking Do's and Don'ts book to try and help others save some money by not making the same mistakes he has made over the years. He has a list of various HP tires and his experiences with them and so far the tires we've seen on cars at the track are at the top of his list.
5/29/11, 02:06 PM
#79
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I was considering ordering NT05s for the BOSS using the 19x9 and 19x10 302S wheels, but size may become an issue. On the vette it was recommended we bump up, but I can't do that with the NT05s on the BOSS. I'm not sure how dropping from 255 to 245 and 285 to 275 would affect the car.
P0's
255/40/19 = 9.0-9.4" depending on which tire you buy
285/35/19 = 10.5"
NT05's
245/40/19 = 9.85"
275/35/19 = 10.8"
With the NT05's you have the option of dropping down to 35/30 ratio sidewalls if desired. So these might be a viable option after all. Hopefully someone with more experience on tire selection can comment.
5/29/11, 03:18 PM
#80
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I've looked at the 05's before and was disappointed that they are narrower. For kicks I just looked up the manufacturers listed widths for the 05's and the P0's. To my surprise the 05's are slightly wider. Here's the widths if I read this correctly:
P0's
255/40/19 = 9.0-9.4" depending on which tire you buy
285/35/19 = 10.5"
NT05's
245/40/19 = 9.85"
275/35/19 = 10.8"
With the NT05's you have the option of dropping down to 35/30 ratio sidewalls if desired. So these might be a viable option after all. Hopefully someone with more experience on tire selection can comment.
P0's
255/40/19 = 9.0-9.4" depending on which tire you buy
285/35/19 = 10.5"
NT05's
245/40/19 = 9.85"
275/35/19 = 10.8"
With the NT05's you have the option of dropping down to 35/30 ratio sidewalls if desired. So these might be a viable option after all. Hopefully someone with more experience on tire selection can comment.
Last edited by Boss Lady; 5/29/11 at 03:26 PM.