This thread is for Boss race tech, specifically for NASA TT competition. I figured it might be good to have a serious build conversation about our cars. A basic understanding of the NASA TT rules of competition and classification is highly advised in this thread

OK, so - I did manage to get the Boss classed in NASA. Bad part is, it's classed as TTA*. For reference, that is the exact same base class as a 2001 Z06 Vette. TTA is in large part dominated by Z06 Vettes and various late-model Lancer Evos with an assload of mods and race tires. TTA with no additional points assessed was what I thought we'd get, and the additional 7 points really pissed me off. But anyway...

I initially was quite put off by the classification - not as put off as some, and I didn't have a blow-up with Greg, the national NASA TT Director (no I wasn't that guy - but LOL if you saw that thread on the NASA boards). I informally decided to seek my entertainment elsewhere. However - the thought keeps gnawing at me, and only gets worse as more great track data about our cars comes in.

So - is it possible for our cars to compete, seriously compete - in TTA? Even at a National level?

Here's my thinking. We have options in TTA in terms of the power to weight ratios there. However, the limit is 8.70:1 for the class - so the Vette would have no special advantage in those terms. It pulls similar skidpad numbers to ours in stock form partly due to huge tires - which they can't really run in TTA, due to 295 width being the "standard" TTA width. But it is lighter. Toss-up advantage?

They have a weight and braking advantage. Not too sure I'd say they have much top-end advantage anymore, due to how well the Boss breathes at high RPM. Brakes are mostly solved by fluid, pads and rotors, which are all free mods - or at least you can close the gap of what physics allows in this fashion, but due to the weight, the Vette will always have somewhat of an advantage there.

The Boss will have an acceleration advantage, and the Vette would need to sink points into adjustable shocks to match our flexibility, so that could be an advantage. I'd think slower, more technical tracks would favor the Boss due to this.

Regarding weight - our base weight is officially 3630 lbs. Add an average driver, gear, etc - and call it 3850, to be somewhat rounded off. This, then, would really be our competition weight, if we didn't engage in the weight game. But as weight is the best thing you can do for a racecar, we shall

For power to weight, lighter is better in so many ways, so let's say we won't explore the top-end of the competition weight, and instead base our power to weight off of a 3630 competition weight. This means we need to shed 220 lbs in the car. Creativity is encouraged here Given that, we take the 0.45 adjustment to the ratio due to the weight, and this means we are allowed to dyno up to 442 HP at the wheels to make the ratio nearly on the dot. So, track depending, power adders are potentially in play.

Now, to the points. TTA* means we have 12 points to spend while still being TTA legal. Given all the above info, there's a lot of ways to go with this...

1. To be competitive, these days you seem to need at least Hoosier R6 tires. That's 10 points right there. But - you do get points back for every 10mm smaller than the base 295mm tire width allowed. Some championship drivers have been very successful in running much skinnier Hoosiers, which gets you good points back. There are some record-holding Vettes out there going low in width, like even 255's. I think our car's weight eliminates massive size reductions as a viable option, but I can get 4 points back out of the 10 by running 275 R6's. Generally on a track I favor sticky vs. wide if I have to choose, but I am curious as to what your own experiences are. For now, let's say I run 275 R6's - so, 6 total points.

2. Aero - I can replace the idiotic rear spoiler with a full GTC-200 adjustable carbon fiber race wing, with a gurney flap, for 4 points. This would make a bigger difference on faster tracks - Road America, for example. Of course it has to balance out with the front. Adjustability helps, but only in so much as it balances with what I can do up front. The LS splitter would be 3 points. But - the 302S hood, with it's vents, would only be a 1 point mod. Not only would this help cooling, but venting would seriously improve front-end downforce, and that's quite useful. Would that be enough to balance out and provide enough aero to be worth the points - good question. Let's say I get the wing and the hood, so +5 points. Now 11 in total.

3. You'd have to be crazy not to take the Torsen option on our cars if you plan to track. So, 1 point there for the upgrade from stock.

4. The 275 width tires allow me an additional +0.4 modifier on my power to weight ratio. Now, my allowable power should be up to 464 to the wheels. There's power available for free point mods, including race gas, tunes, air filter swaps, etc. I think my goal would be to drop in a K&N, remove side restrictors from the exhaust, and get a 100 octane race gas tune. I wonder how close I could get to the 464 mark this way. If it's free points, I should be milking that for everything it's worth.

Now, the jump ball section - I opted for aero here, but what if I had the 5 points I spent there back? There are suspension mods (a Watts link, for example, is 4 points), additional power mods (headers are 2 points, cat removal is 1 points, CAI is 1 point, etc.), or even weight reduction, but that's bloody expensive. Are the points better spent elsewhere? I could get another 3 points back on tires by dropping down to 265 width - is that totally crazy on a car of this weight, is what I am wondering - and what would be a better use of those 3 points, assuming it's viable?

Obviously I am up in the air on many things here. Sorry for the wall of text, but ****, this car should be raced. And I think it's possible for it to be raced well. I want feedback, particularly in areas where you think I am wrong, and I welcome any and all discussion. I want to see if I can make my Boss the racetrack winner it was born to be

 

* crickets *

 

Wow! That's alot of info there. Interesting thoughts on where to spend the mods.
I'm building right now for maxed-points TTB next season, so have some of the same tradeoffs to weigh. Unfortunately, decided to do this after I'd done alot of mods already, so working around that. Won't ever be super competitive, but it'll be fun.

Have you seen the Vorshlag thread on his 2011 GT? http://vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7806&page=8
He was going to try TTB, and was looking for national exposure for his company (they're now making Stang C/C plates, and providing AST coilovers -- Sam Strano may take up carrying their parts again sometime), but decided the Mustang GT would never be competitive as simple mods bumped to TTA, and wouldn't ever compete against the Vettes and Evos there for the reasons you stated. So he dumped the NASA TT plans entirely and is doing just SCCA Solo ST racing instead, provides much more freedom.

The way I see it, if a person is REALLY serious about winning in NASA TT (especially nationally), you have to buy the right car and do the right mods, and unfortunately the Mustang is not the right car for it. Fun to compete, but ultimately futile. It may be competitive in TTS (like Greg on the national forums stated), as there's so much more freedom, and it's allowed to get to a lower base weight and all. But where it's classed, as with the 2011 GT, it's just not the right one. If the Z06 and Evos didn't exist, then maybe...



Will be eager to see the routes you choose, though!

 

What region do you belong to?

 

There is a big thread somewhere about the width between a Hoosier R6 255/35/18 and 275/35/18 coming in the same (or the 255's a bit wider). The thread is based on TT rules (I'll keep looking). TireRack shows 10.3" tire width for both. Gain some points and save some mony. I just corner scaled the car stock at 3604 lbs. with 3/4 tank (spare pump included). Rear wheel and tire comes in a 60lbs so you can easily save 50-65lbs. of unsprung weight with lighter wheels and Hoosiers. I would personally dump the aero mods and ad points for stiffer and shorter springs, watts link, camber plates or at least camber bolts, and more hp. Aero pieces are only good if they are adjustable and you know what your doing.

Dave

 

I'm in Midwest, just moved back out this way a little while ago.

Yeah, I followed Terry's thread on CC, and it was kind of dissappointing. I think a portion of his frustration was due to rules interpretation (such as where he thought his adjustable wing would be an 8-point mod instead of the 4 it actually was), but he raised many valid points.

It may not be possible, and you're right - if I had been thinking "I want to rule TTA" instead of "I want a Boss", I likely would have found a gently used Z06 and gone from there. TTS is a thought, certainly. But I don't think I'll be ready to gut the Boss (at least initially) and make a full-on dedicated racecar out of it. Not just yet.

In any case, the Boss arrives in July for me, so I will have missed half this season anyway. Probably just a few test and tune HPDEs for me this year. But for next season I'll try and be ready to hit the ground running. Sure will be a hell of a lot of fun, whatever happens

 

As far as your jump ball items, no way it would be worth the 4 points for the Watts Link on the Boss. I bought one before I tracked the car and sold it uninstalled. The Boss in stock form with the panhard bar outhandles my Griggs with Watts Link and Koni coilover GT500 by a wide margin. The rear end of the Boss with the panhard bar flat out plants. Anyone considering adding a Watts Link would be advised to track the Boss a few times before making that decision.

 

Definately interested in that thread - if that's right, 255 would be 10 points back, making the tires free

That would give me 6 points back, or 11 if scrapping the aero. I hear you on that. I'd planned on getting another trunk lid to mount it with in case I couldn't get maximum benefit from it. My closest track is Road America, which is a fast track, and I figured it could be helpful, but it needs testing.

In any case, this would certainly bring springs, Watts links, headers, CAT deletes and CAIs into contention.

Already planning on some MM caster/camber plates, and the PF01's for wheels, so I'll shed good weight there. A rear seat delete gets me another 40 lbs closer - then the hard decisions start...

 

Interesting thoughts. Did you track the GT500 before/after the Watts as well? The Griggs is the best out there, so surprised you stated this. My Fays2 made a massive difference on my 09 GT, would hate to go back to the PHB now. The Boss suspension tuning is reportedly the best Ford ever did, so it must be to generate this kind of response.

 

Excellent information, as always.

So the question is - what do you think the Boss needs, based on your track time with it? Looks like I may have the points to do a lot of things.

That is encouraging, very encouraging. Maybe the traditional Mustang road race build rules are turned on their heads with this car.

 

I tracked the GT500 with the factory suspension, then with the FRPP SVT3 "Handling Pack" with the Tokico D specs, then with the Griggs with Watts and Konis. Each subsequently significantly improved the handling and lap times. The Griggs setup on the GT500 made a huge improvement and dropped 4 seconds off my lap times.

My point is that I'm already running the same lap times in the Boss as my Griggs GT500 giving up 200 rwhp! Now that's been on what I would call "medium" speed tracks......130 mph straights....15 turns in 2.2 miles. I'm heading to BIR this weekend which is more of a "power" track....3.1 miles 10 turns and a mile long front straight with a 60 degree banked Turn 1 at the end of it and Turn 2 is another flat 60 degree right hander (120-130 mph) so we'll see how the power vs handling shakes out. I am guessing the Boss will still be competitive with the GT500 and optimistically thinking it might even be better especially on the back half of the course where it's more technical. With TracKey I'd feel better about it.

The Boss isn't the same old Mustang. You really need to experience it first. I had all the same preconceived notions you guys did about the suspension......until I put it on the track.

 

Here's what I've done so far and it has all improved lap times and performance:

Brake cooling kit - a must for track car
Trans cooling scoop
Camber - big improvement (was -1.7, just installed MM cc plates and went to -2.2)
Hawk DTC 70/60 pads - huge improvement over stock pads
SS brake lines - noticeable improvement in pedal
DBA 5000/4000 rotors - shed 8 lbs per front rotor
Enkei PF01 wheels: Here's some weight comparisons on my track wheels/tires:

Laguna Seca 19 x 9 with 265/35/19 Hoosier R6 = 53.5 lbs (Brand new tires)
Laguna Seca 19 x 10 with 295/35/19 Hoosier R6 = 57.5 lbs (Brand new tires)

Enkei PF01 18 x 9.5 with 285/35/18 Nitto 555RII = 42 lbs (Corded outer edges)
Eneki PF01 18 x 10.5 with 305/35/18 Nitto 555RII = 47.5 lbs (Worn down to slicks)

What else does it need? I dunno. TracKey for sure. I haven't outdriven any of the suspension yet other than the lack of factory camber (-0.95 degrees)

These are the biggies. To go beyond this I think you're going to spend a lot of money, have a lot of issues to work through and may have minimal gains. I'm not saying there aren't other mods that will be worth it, but I am taking it slow and I've found IMO the 80/20. You'll get 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost unless you're going to totally gut the thing and make it a track only car. If I'm going to do that, I'd save time and money and just buy the 302S.

It will be interesting to see what others try and what really has an impact on lap times.

 

There's something to be said for weight control and high-revving engines!

You have weight data comparing your GT500 vs the Boss?

I've convinced a guy on here with a GT500, lightly modded, to join me at the July 4th weekend NASA RM event at Pikes Peak, will be interesting to see how he does. The only other GT500 on track I've seen is heavily modded, but not very well driven, can't even keep up with me.

At Hastings in Nebraska last month, one of the track condo owners has a museum, and has a LS that he briefly brought out and drove around the paddock, but way rainy all weekend so no track time for him.

 

I scaled the GT500 before the Griggs at 3915 lbs, but with the heavy torque arm I'm guessing it's higher now even though the other components are lightweight.

I was at Hastings in early May. Do you get there often? It's a great place with great people. I know of this LS....I was graciously given the opportunity to drive it on track which is why I know the camber, brake and wheel/tire mods I've done to my car make a difference over stock for track use....roughly 4-5 seconds.

Make sure to mark your calendar for the Mustang Roundup at Motorsports Park Hastings on September 24/25 and you'll get to meet a bunch of members from this site and several Boss Team members from Ford: https://themustangsource.com/f813/yo...rience-495572/

 

I'm thinking along the lines of power, now. Quite a bit of room for improvement between the dynos I've seen and my max power/weight ratio, which would make 464 to the wheels the limit. The tuning world still has a long ways to go on these cars, of course, so there's no real clear-cut path yet.

In any case, much of what you've done are actually free points mods, and I am planning on taking them - the caster/camber plates, rotors, pads, brake lines, brake ducts and trans cooling scoop. Also, even if for no other reason than heat dissipation, the 302S hood will be on the car.

Didn"t I see a thread where you had some real issues with the DBA rotors?

 

Was my first time there, NASA central's inaugural event May 28/29. Rained like crazy, so not so fun, but really low turnout meant no crowding. First time I used my tire trailer, too, but the receiver for it wasn't quite the right size, so pulled out on I76 on the drive out, luckily no damage to it or the car, just the ball mount. My grandma and aunt/uncle live in Lincoln, so my dad drove out with me, had his first time ride-along, so good time. Only two dry track sessions the entire time, though. Definitely plan on going for the NASA RM/Central crossover next year if they do it in May again. Already humid, and Colorado people don't adapt well to that, so will avoid the mid summer events. September 24/25 would be perfect! OH, but wedding anniversary that week, and already have travel plans. If it's an annual event I'll be there next year!

Great facility, and George (track owner/builder, right?) was great to talk to as well.

My guess is headers might be a bit helpful, though NASA rules on the cats also cost points, and maybe the Steeda CAI, as the hood counts for those points as well. Interested to see if tuning makes much of a difference, as these are already high specific output runners.
Weight savings would be the other avenue, wheels, rotors, seats (those Recaro's look great, but built on the same Mustang base, so way heavy).
I've got my OMP Style seat ready to go in this weekend, should see a good chunk there. Still have to pull out the stupid 12" sub I put in the trunk, though.

 

The only issue with the DBAs is the cost

 

Read your post last night but didn't respond, in for discussion later. NASA's points system is a PITA, but I might run TT with them in '12 so I guess I'd better start getting with the program.

 

Seems the Hoosier R6 in 255/35/18 is the real deal. It's as wide as most 275's, yet refunds me 10 points due to size. Makes my race tires free:-)

Considering our suspension is setup for some stagger, I will try it that way to start. It's funny, but the R6 in a 255/40/18 is half an inch more narrow than the 35 profile, so that's going to keep my stagger relatively consistent with stock.

On the wheels - the PF01s in an 18x9.5 are a 15 mm offset - anyone see any issues with that in particular?

 

You should check with clout9 who runs those wheels. I think he runs more offset than that.