Jza1736

Not yet. Believe me I don't have too much faith yet. I'm going to wait till middle of April and start busting his chops for it!

ace72ace

This was the statement you made after this one earlier in the thread;

"I notice you conveniently dodged my question as to whether it was OK for a dealer to back out on an order and/or add an ADM after it arrives.

And as to the "advertised price"; I would have to see exactly how it was presented, but if the ad says MSRP - $42995, that doesn't imply the DEALER'S price, rather the MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED retail price.

And I promise you, I don't have to sell anything on my lot to anyone. I can say someone else already commited to buy, it's dealer traded, or any other reason." <-- By this you mean lying, right?

It's OK, (I lie too when my kid asks me to go to McDonalds for the 4th time this week that I don't have any cash, etc.. it doesn't make you a bad person, but I think that folks here are getting all bent because of the real world business nature of the discussion). I do agree with some of your viewpoints, and that car dealers, as businessmen, have some 'rights' too, it's not just all customer bias on whomever is bound by an agreement to an advertised price.

I, for one, have no problem fathoming the meaning of SUGGESTED in that little 4 letter abbreviation MSRP. Obviously if Krazy Ken's Kar Korral advertises all 2011 V6 GT's in stock at $500 above factor invoice, then that is the price. But if you see MSRP on a car in the local paper's classifieds, take it as just a starting point.

There are actually some people who know almost NOTHING about cars (I know the dealer in this thread knows this), except they need one to go to work, and that you have to put gas in it to make it go. They literally treat it as a 'toaster', and may rely on the opinions of others to help them pick one that's right for them. So let's say Amy graduates college, and has also finally finished med school, and is now ready to go out and get her first job and now needs a car. She heard from her room mate that perhaps a Honda Civic might be a good choice for a first car. So Amy either opens up the local newspaper, or in this day and age, hit the internet and starts looking for Honda Civics for sale. How does she compare the Civic to say the spiffy looking Acura TSX on the same web site? MSRP for one. Let's see, the Civic is $19,999 but the TSX is $27,999. At least Amy now has a point of reference between the 2 cars. Who knows, after looking around Amy finds a blue one she likes and it so happens to be on sale for less than MSRP. She's certainly not going to ask to pay the higher price she saw earlier when she first started shopping.

I can understand also that dealers who try to be fair & honest, and treat all potential customers with respect bristle when told that the dealer is to be held to a higher standard of ethics with regard to automotive advertising lingo & final price negotiation. However, the nature of the business, and the large number of disreputable dealers out there (of which I think the used car dealer is usually far worse than the new car manufacturer dealer) require the good dealers to prove it over and over again with each new customer that walks through the door. I've been working for many years in a customer facing role, and every single week I have to hold my tongue on a conference call or type a dispassionate email reply to an irate customer that screwed themselves into the ground and have berated my efforts or the product unjustly.

Safe to say, without 'lying customers' dealerships would go out of business. I think those 2 simple words obviously struck a chord with some posters in this thread, judging by some of the replies. At least at the end of the day, we can all relax and forget about the bad parts of the day when you get behind the wheel of a Mustang and make that engine sing!

What was it Rodney said at the end of Caddyshack?

"Hey everyone, we're all gonna get ...."

-ace72

iDrive

Can someone please tell me the purpose of a Dealer Salesperson? Is it to educate the end buyer? That would assume the Salesperson to be knowledgeable of the vehicle(s) being sold. Is it to showcase multiple vehicles to the same potential buyer? Is it to help the potential buyer with the loan application? I just can't seem to grasp what the Salesperson/Dealer does to warrant $1000's of the buyer's coin. Even at MSRP....

I go in to a Dealer, tell 'any' Saleperson what car I want, pay for it, and walk out. What value is the Salesperson to me? In this situation, the starting point should be at invoice and move from there, no? I'm not interested in paying for a friend or looking for a follow-up call to see how things are going. If I pay MSRP, I just gave the Dealer/Salesperson a few thousand tip money for practically nothing. ok, so they fill out the docs for title, registration, and plates. Enlighten me, please......

Dave

PACETTR

Very well stated.

The examples I gave were to make a point, not to endorse the actions.


Try it for 6 months and get back to me.

Bossdog

iDrive
I agree with what you are saying, but only because we are fully educated buyers. Regardless of what I am buying, I fully educate myself on features, function, competitive products, price, ect. I am better informed than any sales person selling me most things (except a computer, I don't know jack about computers and don't care to). My Boss sales person knew nothing about the car and had his manager do all the price negotiating. Then he escorted me to the Finance Guy for Purchase paper work. He was a really nice guy but add zero value to my car purchasing experience. However, in Pacettr's defense (and I don't find much he says about the retail car buying experience defensible) I don't believe that to be the case in most car purchases. Most retail buyers don't know jack about the car buying process and product and a good Sales person can be of assistance. Also, until you have serviced the general Public as a profession, you have no idea how many idiots are out there!

iDrive

Try what for 6 months?

PACETTR

Very acurate statement. We (TMS Forum members) represent the minority of minorities when it comes to vehicle knowledge, pricing, availability, etc. Salespeople play a VERY vital role in the dealership. We sell 130-170 cars a month; two or three sales managers can't take care of that many customer's needs.

What don't you find defensible?

Selling cars.

Bossdog

Comments that Buyers that back out are somehow liars or dishonorable. I had deposits on 2 Boss's First Q3 then Q2, and eventually purchased from a third dealer who had exactly what I wanted being built but not sold. I don't establish the game, FORD does. They put 47 dealer (literally, 47) within a 30 minute drive. The dealers set the rules of the game. I play the game by the rules. Both dealers that took my deposit did so with the full understanding that it was FULLY refundable. The Clear implication is that I can continue to shop. MY $500 is not a commitment to purchase; it is clearly a Place holder in line, that is ALL. The "refundable" deposit is a Weak attempt to close the sale when the customer is walking out. A useful tactic, as dealers know they MUST come back at least one more time and they will get a final try to close them. If a Dealer wants to prevent customers from reneging on their "commitment" to buy, that is very easy, make the deposit larger and non refundable! Will that help the dealer prosper? Probably not otherwise more would use that tactic. Can dealers shop a "sold car for more money? Sure! But they won't be around long. Bottom line is the FREE MARKET sets the acceptable rules of behavior in a retail transaction. We all act in our best interest, on both sides of the seller/purchaser equation. Any Negotiation is full of deceit. I never tell what I am really willing to pay and the car dealer never tells what he can "REALLY" sell the car for. But we don't shout "LIER" at each other! If a sales person wants a Full commitment to buy from me with the full backing of my personal honor, All he as to do is ask for it and they will get an honest answer from me. Short of that, I will continue to work the game as it is set up by others, to my benefit

Big Vito

And if you had a deposit on a car and the dealer gave it back to you to sell the car to someone else,

sent by my neighbor using my WiFi

PACETTR

So no one has ANY sort of sense of humor? I have stated several times that I made my first post tongue-in-cheek, hence the smiley --->



That said, there is a bit of truth in the sarcasm when it comes to the double standard, to the point that people will try to rationalize their behavior with cries of "free enterprise" or something to that effect. My point is and has been that deceitful behavior is unacceptable for either party IMO. If we had committed to sell a car at MSRP, we would honor that commitment. Conversely, when we order a car for a customer, we "expect" that they will finalize the transaction when the car arrives.

You are very correct in that a dealer cannot force someone to purchase an order unit. In fact I ordered a car for a member of another forum that I frequent. Unfortunately he had some job issues in the interim. Completely understandable and no hard feelings. I would order him another if he asked. But IMO backing out on a commitment for no other reason than getting one quicker isn't right, whether it's an option or not.

FWIW, there are no non-refundable deposits. You are exactly right about the deposit being nothing more than a "token" commitment, and we usually don't even run the check/credit card when we take one.




Let me ask you this: What if your dealer had one, two, or more customers inquire about purchasing a Boss AFTER they have taken your deposit? They turned this(these) person(people) away because they had a deposit on their only allocation and it's sold. This(these) person(people) then find a Boss at another dealer that isn't spoken for or buy a Z/28. Now you back out on your deal. The dealer has potentially lost a deal, and there's no guarantee that the next person to come along will want the color/options you have specified.

You're OK with that I'm sure, but I hope you can at least acknowledge that it's not the most ethical thing you could do.

PACETTR

This...^^^

iDrive

I don't think I could live with myself

Dave

Rjaniz

I think a fundamental flaw in the logic of this debate is the belief(or want) that the Dealership and the Customer are on the same level in the deal. They're not.

Jumping ship being unethical? Ehhh no, I can't say that is or agree that it can be considered as such. It just doesn't leave a dealer in a bind like implied. Yes it might be customized for someone, but then so what? It's not like their name has been engraved on the hood. It's basic, packaged, options that you have a real good shot that someone else will want. And I'm talking with all cars, not just the Boss302.

Heck, even customized cars are easily dumped off. I sold my V6 mustang that was customized and it was gone in a month from the dealer I sold it too.

In the "what if I returned the deposit and sold the car" situation, You are not only pissing off a would be customer, who could've netted you money down the road, but anyone else they have bad mouthed you to. Costing you even more money in the long run. Sure, the customer that got the deal might be able to offset that, but that's far more a gamble. Especially when they mention they got the deal by stepping on someone's deposit.

Where as if the customer jumps ship... Dealer's out this one sale. The customer could come back later, certainly won't bad mouth the dealer(might even praise them depending on how they handled the separation), and you can just trade the car with another dealership if you can't find a buyer right away.

Can't you also cancel an order once you place it with Ford? Seems a little strange if it was "one call and no going back"


In a perfect world: Dealers only charge MSRP, Buyers pay for everything up front, ADMs are a thing of fiction, cars don't mysteriously sit on a Ramp 51 for weeks on end, all colors are available at all times, and everyone can afford the exact car they want regardless of price.

But the reality is absolutely none of the above is true.

Additionally: Might want to try using the laughing guy next time to convey humor

PACETTR

Unfortunately you have confirmed that there isn't as much humor as I had hoped


While most if not all of what you are saying is accurate, that doesn't make it RIGHT.

Rjaniz

Think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. But the capitalist system sides with me as well.

Bossdog

Now we are down to semantics’. a $500 refundable deposit does NOT make the car sold. The sales person would/should tell additional potential customers for that vehicle, I have $500 refundable deposit. Should it come available, I will call you. Yes, customers will move on to another deal and the dealer ship could lose an opportunity to sell a vehicle. The Dealer has the obligation to protect his business, not the customer. If the dealer is losing too many sales to customers that back out, they have a whole list of potential problems, none of which is an unethical customer. Dealers can tell customers that a car remains "for sale" until he (the customer) makes a substantial irrevocable financial commitment. Just Like I did on my 3rd Boss. I have engaged in a Formal legal purchase agreement, even though the car is not yet built, not easily revoked!
Again, the Dealer has a wide range of options to "protect" the dealership from lost sales. Most of which are not used because they are consumer unfriendly. The Free market sets the behavior of both the Buyer and the seller.
Should buyers and sellers honor their word? Yes, I agree with you. I do business on ebay and Craigslist, 100% trust. It works most of the time!

LQQK

PACETTR

100% false. No VIN, no delivery, no deal. There is NO WAY for a dealer to enforce or secure a transaction on an order unit UNTIL IT IS DELIVERED. Period.

Your last paragraph is really the only point I was trying to make.



Best post of this thread

Bossdog

Your right. I Have a VIN.

Enough!

PACETTR

Deal is not binding until you take delivery. In case you find a better deal somewhere.