unnoticedtrails

I know most of this is "wear and tear" maintenance, but some just feels like it is stuff that should not be happening yet. I am really getting tired of having to put what little money I have into fixing my Mustang. Suspension: tierod ends, steering wobble, excessive alignment tire wear... 3 batteries, and a dead alternator. All within the last two years.

Today, after getting my car back from the body shop ($450 dent in the fender * my fault)....I go to get my summer wheels/tires put on....and they come out and tell me I need a new tire...it's down to the cords. $94.50 for a new replacement tire (balancing and mounting and insurance, blah blah).

Glenn

I hate the alignment on our cars. I usually have them stand the tires up a little more than spec = tires wear more evenly

unnoticedtrails

The shop says he will look at it for free and tell me what is going on. I don't know how it can go out of alignment so easily!

Glenn

Its just that in spec = to much camber and wears the insides of the tires. Most shops don't attempt to do anything about it because there's no real adjustment with out using camber bolts.

Joeywhat

Ford's alignment specs are absurdly loose for a lot of their vehicles. The Focus (all years) also suffers from excessive rear tire wear due to alignment specs, and the fact that very few places will actually try and get it properly aligned...if it's in spec, they've done their job...

ford4v429

I think a LOT of the wear is due to poor Ackerman geometry...

next time out in a big parking lot, cut the wheels and drive in a circle, stop without touching the steering, get out and look at your tires... back up in a circle, stop and look again...going forward the tires pull WAY to the outside, backing up, they tuck under... the inside tire normally turns in more than the outside by ackerman offset in the spindle tierod/balljoint angle, combined with the fore/aft position of the rack and pinion mount... if all is well, the steering angle compensates for the wheelbase/width of the car- well, Ford missed it.

I went to wider tires, they started cupping at just a couple thousand miles, alignment was in spec... I changed to 3/16 toe in. 8000 miles later, tires are still fine...

I think the huge rubber rear bushing on the lower control arm, might combine to the toe-out- on- turning effect of poor ackerman when braking/turning... would love to see some way to measure toe changes under braking loads, but bet with the soft bushings, its pretty severe... if you brake and turn a bit 'briskly' I think especially with wide tires, the insides are gonna chew up fast. my original pirellis went to the cords on the inside with 2/3 tread elsewhere...

with age, the rubber gets softer, even if in spec 'static', I expect substantial toe-out increases occur with braking...adding toe-in mighta been a wrong move, but so far its worked for me...I'm sure the toe increases in braking just not as much as before, and doing the forward circle/look at the tires, the tread squirming outward isnt as noticable(but a lot worse backwards- but I dont travel many miles in reverse) so wear from around town turning corners shouldnt be as bad... time will tell.

unnoticedtrails

So this issue is just something I have to live with ? I'll mention the stuff this thread has brought to my attention to the shop guy and see what he says.

ford4v429

ask your alignment guy- just guessing he'd agree that if you set camber to the straight up end of the spec, toe in to the 'in' end of the specs it should help- see what he thinks... heard it on the internet, its gotta be true

edit- shoulda mentioned, with the 3/16 toe-in (way out of spec) my car now has NO bumpsteer- when the wider tires first went on (had about 1/16 toe-out, and new wheels have less offset than standard- increased scrub radius aggravates steering stuff too) it would dance all over on a potholed road, not at all anymore

unnoticedtrails

Thanks Tim, I'll ask him for his opinion.

Glenn

in ford spec is to far out of spec as far as I'm concerned ..... right??

ford4v429

I agree, but dont think its just camber... mine wore so bad on the inside edge, the camber woulda had to have the tire outer edge off the ground seriously, I bet the inside shoulder diameter was 3/4" shorter than outside...camber and tread squirm would wear more than just the camber for sure, but I couldnt see that much...

I still *think* the poor ackerman induced severe toe-out when turning, and added toe-out when braking, and likely 'begging for mercy' toe-out while braking AND turning a corner, just shred the inside corners from skidding them against each other so hard...I'm pretty sure the above problems only get a lot worse as the big rubber bushings soften up from years of use.

still wonder if the ackerman could ever be improved by shimming the rack away from the frame a bit- know some cars are modded that way, unsure about S197- and if steering shaft clearance would allow it...
will have to measure it all up someday... If I ever put struts on, I'll take a assembly in to work and lay it out on the CMM to get some accurate numbers on the tierod:balljoint:spindle angles...

try that driving in a circle/look at the tires sometime- ackerman is way way way out... only vehicle Ive ever seen worse was my 93 F150 with the antique-but-heavyduty twin Ibeam setup- if drove in a circle it would lift the frontend 2" and nearly pull the tires off the wheels... reverse and it would squat like a few hundred pounds were added to the nose, and tires would bulge out like a cartoon... these cars handle great, but I think ford probably had more accurate ackerman offset on the model T than todays cars for some reason...handlingwise, doubt it affects very much, but in tight, on the locks, turns, it tortures the tires for sure...

unnoticedtrails

Not to make a positive out of this, but I'm just grateful that this issue is not just my Mustang. I have been really questioning my favorite car and I don't want to think like that.

ElkGroveFordGuy

I would just like to add my 2cents!
I have recently set my alignment to zero toe, and the car drives straight as an arrow, and turn in, is much quicker. ( worked great at autocross this last weekend)
My camber is at 1.4 on each side, which might be a lot for daily driving but very mild for any spirited driver that likes curves in the road!
Plus I never expect to get more than 15K out of a set of tires!

unnoticedtrails

Nice! I really appreciate everyone's help on this. I hope my shop guy can get to the bottom of this. I have an appointment Wednesday afternoon. I'll let everyone know the outcome.

My Mustang is my daily driver, year round and in Colorado and I don't have a garage. One thing the guy said to me on the phone when I called about is that he recommends everyone get realignments every year (due to potholes, unbroken pavement etc.) what do you guys say?

ford4v429

have to thread hijack- see you have a bricklin - one car Ive never seen in real life, but always thought was pretty cool any pics? those gotta be about rare as hens teeth these days... I used to do all my 'current events' assignments in school on stuff out of auto magazines, still recall when the bricklin came out... I mighta been 12 but really thought that was one of the coolest cars ever, even if not a mustang

ElkGroveFordGuy

Sorry for the tread jack!
1 quick pic!

ford4v429

edit- James: thanks- nice Bricklin...forgot how much those looked like a Delorean, think old John Z got some ideas from them

unless you rack/inspect it yourself at least annually, alignment a year is probably a good idea- here NTB stores check for free, think its 69 bucks if it needs work- more importantly in my opinion, is the safety checks- any alignment guy will unload the suspension to check for slop in tierods/balljoints, stuff that could kill you without warning if it fails- Ford sourced crap chinese rubber for tierod boots, they are often split out and if dirt/water get in, can get really loose - combined with todays low scrub radius/ABS friendly/high offset wheels, steering dont feel as loose as it would have on a old school setup... saw a pic on facebook just a couple days ago of a totalled 05 that dropped a tierod at 60mph...luckily everyone was ok, but a 30 dollar part killed a sweet car

what sucks, our 65 galaxie still has the original suspension parts, and the rubber boots are supple as new... my mustangs were cracking at 2 yrs old- balljoint boots have been fine, but tierod boots and rear control arm bushing rubber has been showing surface cracks forever...

even annual alignments arent a guarantee things wont break, but odds are good the chances would decrease 99% of the time...

Mr. V

I usually get my alignment done once a year. I purchased a lifetime alignment from Firestone. It cost about as much as 2 alignments. If you plan keeping your car for a while, it's a great value. I plan on keeping mine forever.

unnoticedtrails

Nice, I should look in to that. hmmm.

Glenn

ackerman I think would play a small part in tire wear seeing on how your going straight most of the time and at full turn rarely.
Times two on the lifetime from firestone. Just make sure they have the tools that do NOT mar your wheels. I know some have those pins that hold the eeals to your wheels. NTB does not mar your wheels but they are a bit more expensive.