a little get up and go ?
6/22/10, 07:58 PM
#1
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a little get up and go ?
so i decided rather then dropping 2grand on rims id get some performance parts ive bin dying for a little giddy up... heres my question
do i do a ton of bolt ons aka headers pullys cai + tune and x pipe
or do i wait a year and go with the Vortech supercharger i wouldent do the HO one just the reg 7-8 psi one they say its good for 400hp i plan on keeping this car and babying it forever is the supercharger harmfull in neway as far as sucking life ? are the bolt ons safer ?
and last of all how easy is it to do the smaller vortech instaill ? or should this be professionally done my dad knows alot about cars we have a decent amount of tools and we do plumbing so were not to shabby with our hands....
any input you guys have is great
do i do a ton of bolt ons aka headers pullys cai + tune and x pipe
or do i wait a year and go with the Vortech supercharger i wouldent do the HO one just the reg 7-8 psi one they say its good for 400hp i plan on keeping this car and babying it forever is the supercharger harmfull in neway as far as sucking life ? are the bolt ons safer ?
and last of all how easy is it to do the smaller vortech instaill ? or should this be professionally done my dad knows alot about cars we have a decent amount of tools and we do plumbing so were not to shabby with our hands....
any input you guys have is great
6/22/10, 10:23 PM
#2
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That really depends on what you want from the car and how you want to drive it. The Vortech is a solid kit that makes decent power relatively safely.
There are some things to think about though. Mainly how you plan on using the car. There are situations where a blower can have adverse effects that you don't expect or don't want to deal with them. The first thing that comes to mind is heat. The base Vortech kits have absolutely no charge air cooling at all. Even though the compressors are quite efficient, even with 100% adiabatic efficiency, there's always going to be heating of an air charge that is compressed. Then drop that efficiency down to around 75% for a centrifugal compressor and you can see that heat might become an issue.
For short little burst of speed this kit is probably pretty decent. Hot lapping at a drag strip or any amount of road course duty and you're looking at some serious heat soak. This not only destroys power, but it puts the engine in danger of pre-ignition and dieseling.
Now, if you drive the car in a manner that you only occasionally have a quick blast, this kit would probably be awesome for that purpose.
As far as the install goes, it's pretty straight forward. However the Vortech kits require you to drill and tap an oil line into the oil pan for a lubrication feed. This makes getting the car back to stock if you need to a little harder.
On the other hand there are some bolt-ons that make a huge difference in these cars. A simple cold air kit with a good tune is really going to put a smile on your face. Add charge motion delete plates, exhaust and a set of gears and you'll literally have a new car.
The addition of a catted x-pipe, charge motion delete plates and 4.10's shaved over half a second off my 1/4 mile time and raised the trap speed 3-4mph. That's a huge difference for just a few bolt-ons.
This setup is still going to give you stock like drivability and reliability that you can count on. The Vortech kit isn't going to push the engine, but you have to make sure the tune is correct. Any forced induction install should have a proper dyno tune done to it. Otherwise you can bet the engine being on borrowed time. Even in the "safe" zone for power output.
It's a decision you've got to make based on what you want out of the car. Either route will be fun, but you don't want to spend $3500 on something that doesn't conform to the goals you have for the car.
What my suggestion is would be to start doing some of the bolt-ons. The gears, charge motion deletes, tune and exhaust will all compliment a blower anyway. Cold air kits aren't incredibly expensive either, so if you end up taking it off to fit a blower, you're not out too much.
There are some things to think about though. Mainly how you plan on using the car. There are situations where a blower can have adverse effects that you don't expect or don't want to deal with them. The first thing that comes to mind is heat. The base Vortech kits have absolutely no charge air cooling at all. Even though the compressors are quite efficient, even with 100% adiabatic efficiency, there's always going to be heating of an air charge that is compressed. Then drop that efficiency down to around 75% for a centrifugal compressor and you can see that heat might become an issue.
For short little burst of speed this kit is probably pretty decent. Hot lapping at a drag strip or any amount of road course duty and you're looking at some serious heat soak. This not only destroys power, but it puts the engine in danger of pre-ignition and dieseling.
Now, if you drive the car in a manner that you only occasionally have a quick blast, this kit would probably be awesome for that purpose.
As far as the install goes, it's pretty straight forward. However the Vortech kits require you to drill and tap an oil line into the oil pan for a lubrication feed. This makes getting the car back to stock if you need to a little harder.
On the other hand there are some bolt-ons that make a huge difference in these cars. A simple cold air kit with a good tune is really going to put a smile on your face. Add charge motion delete plates, exhaust and a set of gears and you'll literally have a new car.
The addition of a catted x-pipe, charge motion delete plates and 4.10's shaved over half a second off my 1/4 mile time and raised the trap speed 3-4mph. That's a huge difference for just a few bolt-ons.
This setup is still going to give you stock like drivability and reliability that you can count on. The Vortech kit isn't going to push the engine, but you have to make sure the tune is correct. Any forced induction install should have a proper dyno tune done to it. Otherwise you can bet the engine being on borrowed time. Even in the "safe" zone for power output.
It's a decision you've got to make based on what you want out of the car. Either route will be fun, but you don't want to spend $3500 on something that doesn't conform to the goals you have for the car.
What my suggestion is would be to start doing some of the bolt-ons. The gears, charge motion deletes, tune and exhaust will all compliment a blower anyway. Cold air kits aren't incredibly expensive either, so if you end up taking it off to fit a blower, you're not out too much.
6/23/10, 07:57 AM
#3
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+1 to what Jason said. Start small and go from there. I'm getting a cold air intake and tuner this summer, and have been told numerous times that those additions alone really wake up the 4.6L.
6/23/10, 10:44 AM
#4
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The CAI is a good upgrade. I have a BBK in my CS and I love it. Beware of purchasing a CAI that is 'self-tuning' like my BBK I got. I have the **** check engine light on due to a lean code that I cant get rid of.
However, the pros outweigh the cons!
However, the pros outweigh the cons!
6/23/10, 04:41 PM
#5
Mach 1 Member
You're getting some excellent thinking points from people who seem to have had some experience at it (thinking and modding!).
My counsel has to do with how much is too much of a good thing. And Why?
I have driven some cars with puny power-to-weight ratios, and some with grossly too much power. The latter were awesome in their ability to convert desire into speed, and anticipation into outright fear. The others, the "tiddlers", the econo-box transportation units, the "that's-not-a-race-car" vehicles were the greatest (and not incidentally, most economical) generators of driving joy. The satisfaction of getting the most out of a small potential, showing others that it isn't money and horsepower that makes Jack a happy boy, was more important than saying, "I threw a gob of money at my car and boy-oh-boy is it marvelous!"
My first Mustang was the '06 V6 convertible automatic. Two-hundred ten horsepower they said. When I got it from Budget Rent-A-Car it would spin the right-rear 215-16 baby-buggy BFG tire endlessly, if I'd let it. After many thousands of dollars in suspension modifications, it would still spin the 275-19 Pirelli, but not as long, and by then I had learned a little about how to control it. It was an autocross delight, even with no engine modifications beyond dual exhaust (which was more for aesthetic balance of the rear view, and the sensuality of the sound) and a tune. I was impressed, if not amazed, at how quickly it would run to the red line, and how violent that seemed. More than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. V6. 210 HP. More than enough.
My third Mustang is a V8 convertible automatic. Three hundred horsepower. More luxury extras, so a bit heavier than the V6 "fleet" convertible, but even more of a violent accelerator and wheel-spinner, and considerably scarier. With the "Bullitt" CAI and Bama tunes, it will spin the 285-18 F1 Supercars all the way through first gear, almost all the way through second gear, and gives a substantial "chirp" on the change to third. Walked the speedometer needle past the markings, on a "closed" West Texas highway. Way more than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. 320 HP, approximately, maybe more if you can believe FRPP and Bama.
The idea is to get a feel for the difference between "needs" and "wants", eh? NO one in a passenger car needs more HP than necessary to get up to freeway merge speed in a standard on-ramp length, nor more HP than enough to haul three or four humans up the hill to home or the cabin. Any more than that is excessive and wasteful.
We are very fortunate to live in a time when we get to choose to be wasteful, in whatever way we like best. If we WANT to have 900 RWHP we can, by sticking a gob of money on a suitable platform. It is wasteful and excessive, but we LIKE it! It serves no useful purpose, other than giving us bragging rights and the builder a more-than-comfortable living standard. Such is life in contemporary automotive-dom. Fun, Fun, Fun.
If we have enough excess cash to spend, and don't mind letting our investment sit as a museum-piece 99% of the time, our 900-HP beast is justifiable as an example of the art of living large in the contemporary world. That's nice.
If such an investment must be scaled back to fit in our budgets, and we end up with a car that is way more impressive than a 320-HP Mustang, whines pleasingly as it 'charges its way to illegal highway speeds, is more vulnerable to failures in motive and drive-train systems, and is inadequately braked, that's our choice, we get to make it, enjoy the positive consequences - and suffer the negatives. More power to us, to coin a phrase.
If, on the other hand, we have learned to be satisfied with obtaining full performance from a "reasonably over-powered" car like the Mustang GT, we already have more than enough power. We might delight in getting it to answer our steering and braking commands with more dispatch, and learning to make it answer those commands in the correct sequence and order to be the fastest "stock" Mustang in class - see Sam Strano.
I'm a person who is not all that resistant to temptation. I know it isn't good for me, but if someone brings home a cheesecake or half gallon of ice cream, the operative phrase around here is, "If it's here, I'll eat it!"
So, for my money, adding a supercharger or turbo is asking for disaster. Even with just 320 HP I have trouble controlling my utilization of the potential. Another hundred or so HP would be even more tempting. I don't think I'd be able to resist going 150 MPH, just because I could. I'll keep my temptations on a somewhat lower plane, like on-ramps, auto-crosses, and and the occasional eighth-mile RaceLegal event, just to test-and-tune. Yeah, that's the ticket. Test-and-tune.
Your mileage may vary.
My counsel has to do with how much is too much of a good thing. And Why?
I have driven some cars with puny power-to-weight ratios, and some with grossly too much power. The latter were awesome in their ability to convert desire into speed, and anticipation into outright fear. The others, the "tiddlers", the econo-box transportation units, the "that's-not-a-race-car" vehicles were the greatest (and not incidentally, most economical) generators of driving joy. The satisfaction of getting the most out of a small potential, showing others that it isn't money and horsepower that makes Jack a happy boy, was more important than saying, "I threw a gob of money at my car and boy-oh-boy is it marvelous!"
My first Mustang was the '06 V6 convertible automatic. Two-hundred ten horsepower they said. When I got it from Budget Rent-A-Car it would spin the right-rear 215-16 baby-buggy BFG tire endlessly, if I'd let it. After many thousands of dollars in suspension modifications, it would still spin the 275-19 Pirelli, but not as long, and by then I had learned a little about how to control it. It was an autocross delight, even with no engine modifications beyond dual exhaust (which was more for aesthetic balance of the rear view, and the sensuality of the sound) and a tune. I was impressed, if not amazed, at how quickly it would run to the red line, and how violent that seemed. More than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. V6. 210 HP. More than enough.
My third Mustang is a V8 convertible automatic. Three hundred horsepower. More luxury extras, so a bit heavier than the V6 "fleet" convertible, but even more of a violent accelerator and wheel-spinner, and considerably scarier. With the "Bullitt" CAI and Bama tunes, it will spin the 285-18 F1 Supercars all the way through first gear, almost all the way through second gear, and gives a substantial "chirp" on the change to third. Walked the speedometer needle past the markings, on a "closed" West Texas highway. Way more than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. 320 HP, approximately, maybe more if you can believe FRPP and Bama.
The idea is to get a feel for the difference between "needs" and "wants", eh? NO one in a passenger car needs more HP than necessary to get up to freeway merge speed in a standard on-ramp length, nor more HP than enough to haul three or four humans up the hill to home or the cabin. Any more than that is excessive and wasteful.
We are very fortunate to live in a time when we get to choose to be wasteful, in whatever way we like best. If we WANT to have 900 RWHP we can, by sticking a gob of money on a suitable platform. It is wasteful and excessive, but we LIKE it! It serves no useful purpose, other than giving us bragging rights and the builder a more-than-comfortable living standard. Such is life in contemporary automotive-dom. Fun, Fun, Fun.
If we have enough excess cash to spend, and don't mind letting our investment sit as a museum-piece 99% of the time, our 900-HP beast is justifiable as an example of the art of living large in the contemporary world. That's nice.
If such an investment must be scaled back to fit in our budgets, and we end up with a car that is way more impressive than a 320-HP Mustang, whines pleasingly as it 'charges its way to illegal highway speeds, is more vulnerable to failures in motive and drive-train systems, and is inadequately braked, that's our choice, we get to make it, enjoy the positive consequences - and suffer the negatives. More power to us, to coin a phrase.
If, on the other hand, we have learned to be satisfied with obtaining full performance from a "reasonably over-powered" car like the Mustang GT, we already have more than enough power. We might delight in getting it to answer our steering and braking commands with more dispatch, and learning to make it answer those commands in the correct sequence and order to be the fastest "stock" Mustang in class - see Sam Strano.
I'm a person who is not all that resistant to temptation. I know it isn't good for me, but if someone brings home a cheesecake or half gallon of ice cream, the operative phrase around here is, "If it's here, I'll eat it!"
So, for my money, adding a supercharger or turbo is asking for disaster. Even with just 320 HP I have trouble controlling my utilization of the potential. Another hundred or so HP would be even more tempting. I don't think I'd be able to resist going 150 MPH, just because I could. I'll keep my temptations on a somewhat lower plane, like on-ramps, auto-crosses, and and the occasional eighth-mile RaceLegal event, just to test-and-tune. Yeah, that's the ticket. Test-and-tune.
Your mileage may vary.
Last edited by frank s; 6/23/10 at 04:52 PM. Reason: speling err
6/23/10, 04:55 PM
#6
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You're getting some excellent thinking points from people who seem to have had some experience at it (thinking and modding!).
My counsel has to do with how much is too much of a good thing. And Why?
I have driven some cars with puny power-to-weight ratios, and some with grossly too much power. The latter were awesome in their ability to convert desire into speed, and anticipation into outright fear. The others, the "tiddlers", the econo-box transportation units, the "that's-not-a-race-car" vehicles were the greatest (and not incidentally, most economical) generators of driving joy. The satisfaction of getting the most out of a small potential, showing others that it isn't money and horsepower that makes Jack a happy boy, was more important than saying, "I threw a gob of money at my car and boy-oh-boy is it marvelous!"
My first Mustang was the '06 V6 convertible automatic. Two-hundred ten horsepower they said. When I got it from Budget Rent-A-Car it would spin the right-rear 215-16 baby-buggy BFG tire endlessly, if I'd let it. After many thousands of dollars in suspension modifications, it would still spin the 275-19 Pirelli, but not as long, and by then I had learned a little about how to control it. It was an autocross delight, even with no engine modifications beyond dual exhaust (which was more for aesthetic balance of the rear view, and the sensuality of the sound) and a tune. I was impressed, if not amazed, at how quickly it would run to the red line, and how violent that seemed. More than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. V6. 210 HP. More than enough.
My third Mustang is a V8 convertible automatic. Three hundred horsepower. More luxury extras, so a bit heavier than the V6 "fleet" convertible, but even more of a violent accelerator and wheel-spinner, and considerably scarier. With the "Bullitt" CAI and Bama tunes, it will spin the 285-18 F1 Supercars all the way through first gear, almost all the way through second gear, and gives a substantial "chirp" on the change to third. Walked the speedometer needle past the markings, on a "closed" West Texas highway. Way more than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. 320 HP, approximately, maybe more if you can believe FRPP and Bama.
The idea is to get a feel for the difference between "needs" and "wants", eh? NO one in a passenger car needs more HP than necessary to get up to freeway merge speed in a standard on-ramp length, nor more HP than enough to haul three or four humans up the hill to home or the cabin. Any more than that is excessive and wasteful.
We are very fortunate to live in a time when we get to choose to be wasteful, in whatever way we like best. If we WANT to have 900 RWHP we can, by sticking a gob of money on a suitable platform. It is wasteful and excessive, but we LIKE it! It serves no useful purpose, other than giving us bragging rights and the builder a more-than-comfortable living standard. Such is life in contemporary automotive-dom. Fun, Fun, Fun.
If we have enough excess cash to spend, and don't mind letting our investment sit as a museum-piece 99% of the time, our 900-HP beast is justifiable as an example of the art of living large in the contemporary world. That's nice.
If such an investment must be scaled back to fit in our budgets, and we end up with a car that is way more impressive than a 320-HP Mustang, whines pleasingly as it 'charges its way to illegal highway speeds, is more vulnerable to failures in motive and drive-train systems, and is inadequately braked, that's our choice, we get to make it, enjoy the positive consequences - and suffer the negatives. More power to us, to coin a phrase.
If, on the other hand, we have learned to be satisfied with obtaining full performance from a "reasonably over-powered" car like the Mustang GT, we already have more than enough power. We might delight in getting it to answer our steering and braking commands with more dispatch, and learning to make it answer those commands in the correct sequence and order to be the fastest "stock" Mustang in class - see Sam Strano.
I'm a person who is not all that resistant to temptation. I know it isn't good for me, but if someone brings home a cheesecake or half gallon of ice cream, the operative phrase around here is, "If it's here, I'll eat it!"
So, for my money, adding a supercharger or turbo is asking for disaster. Even with just 320 HP I have trouble controlling my utilization of the potential. Another hundred or so HP would be even more tempting. I don't think I'd be able to resist going 150 MPH, just because I could. I'll keep my temptations on a somewhat lower plane, like on-ramps, auto-crosses, and and the occasional eighth-mile RaceLegal event, just to test-and-tune. Yeah, that's the ticket. Test-and-tune.
Your mileage may vary.
My counsel has to do with how much is too much of a good thing. And Why?
I have driven some cars with puny power-to-weight ratios, and some with grossly too much power. The latter were awesome in their ability to convert desire into speed, and anticipation into outright fear. The others, the "tiddlers", the econo-box transportation units, the "that's-not-a-race-car" vehicles were the greatest (and not incidentally, most economical) generators of driving joy. The satisfaction of getting the most out of a small potential, showing others that it isn't money and horsepower that makes Jack a happy boy, was more important than saying, "I threw a gob of money at my car and boy-oh-boy is it marvelous!"
My first Mustang was the '06 V6 convertible automatic. Two-hundred ten horsepower they said. When I got it from Budget Rent-A-Car it would spin the right-rear 215-16 baby-buggy BFG tire endlessly, if I'd let it. After many thousands of dollars in suspension modifications, it would still spin the 275-19 Pirelli, but not as long, and by then I had learned a little about how to control it. It was an autocross delight, even with no engine modifications beyond dual exhaust (which was more for aesthetic balance of the rear view, and the sensuality of the sound) and a tune. I was impressed, if not amazed, at how quickly it would run to the red line, and how violent that seemed. More than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. V6. 210 HP. More than enough.
My third Mustang is a V8 convertible automatic. Three hundred horsepower. More luxury extras, so a bit heavier than the V6 "fleet" convertible, but even more of a violent accelerator and wheel-spinner, and considerably scarier. With the "Bullitt" CAI and Bama tunes, it will spin the 285-18 F1 Supercars all the way through first gear, almost all the way through second gear, and gives a substantial "chirp" on the change to third. Walked the speedometer needle past the markings, on a "closed" West Texas highway. Way more than enough horsepower for anyone's needs. 320 HP, approximately, maybe more if you can believe FRPP and Bama.
The idea is to get a feel for the difference between "needs" and "wants", eh? NO one in a passenger car needs more HP than necessary to get up to freeway merge speed in a standard on-ramp length, nor more HP than enough to haul three or four humans up the hill to home or the cabin. Any more than that is excessive and wasteful.
We are very fortunate to live in a time when we get to choose to be wasteful, in whatever way we like best. If we WANT to have 900 RWHP we can, by sticking a gob of money on a suitable platform. It is wasteful and excessive, but we LIKE it! It serves no useful purpose, other than giving us bragging rights and the builder a more-than-comfortable living standard. Such is life in contemporary automotive-dom. Fun, Fun, Fun.
If we have enough excess cash to spend, and don't mind letting our investment sit as a museum-piece 99% of the time, our 900-HP beast is justifiable as an example of the art of living large in the contemporary world. That's nice.
If such an investment must be scaled back to fit in our budgets, and we end up with a car that is way more impressive than a 320-HP Mustang, whines pleasingly as it 'charges its way to illegal highway speeds, is more vulnerable to failures in motive and drive-train systems, and is inadequately braked, that's our choice, we get to make it, enjoy the positive consequences - and suffer the negatives. More power to us, to coin a phrase.
If, on the other hand, we have learned to be satisfied with obtaining full performance from a "reasonably over-powered" car like the Mustang GT, we already have more than enough power. We might delight in getting it to answer our steering and braking commands with more dispatch, and learning to make it answer those commands in the correct sequence and order to be the fastest "stock" Mustang in class - see Sam Strano.
I'm a person who is not all that resistant to temptation. I know it isn't good for me, but if someone brings home a cheesecake or half gallon of ice cream, the operative phrase around here is, "If it's here, I'll eat it!"
So, for my money, adding a supercharger or turbo is asking for disaster. Even with just 320 HP I have trouble controlling my utilization of the potential. Another hundred or so HP would be even more tempting. I don't think I'd be able to resist going 150 MPH, just because I could. I'll keep my temptations on a somewhat lower plane, like on-ramps, auto-crosses, and and the occasional eighth-mile RaceLegal event, just to test-and-tune. Yeah, that's the ticket. Test-and-tune.
Your mileage may vary.
6/24/10, 11:39 AM
#8
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The Vortech V3 is an awesome kit. Self contained with no tapping of the oil pan. Unless you're racing from stoplight to stoplight, the non charge cooled kit will perform just fine. You can always add the charge cooler at a later date. Vortech does offer this type of upgrade. Methanol injection will also work to cool the inlet temps.
6/24/10, 12:15 PM
#9
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I was in exactly your shoes about 10 years ago with my 93 5.0. I added every bolt on I could as money permitted. First it was exhaust, then handeling, then heads cam intake, and that is were I should have stopped. The car was so much fun with only these things but I had to have more. I saved up my money and got the latest 3-core intercooled procharger at the time. I had absolutely nothing but problems from that point on. If you floored it wrong it would buck, always had to make sure I had the best gas, I always had these questions on my mind: is the frame twisting?, can the tranny handle it?, will it dye out here somewhere?, what if the piece of crap procharger tentioner fails and put me out of commision?. There was just so much to worry about I lost the enjoyment of the car. Then on top of that if I did floor it down the street or highway I would be going so fast I would go to jail if I got caught. Believe me if you have the power your going to try to race everybody and will end up in jail, w/ messed up car, dead, or minimally with a really bad ticket. Cops dont let you out of stuff as easy anymore.
If I were you, I'd just put in a nice gear, do up the exhaust, handling, CAI, pullies, and I think just for the sound I would do the hot rod cams to get that sweet idle! And always remember that no matter what power you add, you will always get useded to it and it will feel slow.
If I were you, I'd just put in a nice gear, do up the exhaust, handling, CAI, pullies, and I think just for the sound I would do the hot rod cams to get that sweet idle! And always remember that no matter what power you add, you will always get useded to it and it will feel slow.
6/25/10, 10:04 AM
#11
Bullitt Member
With age comes wisdom.lol. Lots of good advice here. You don't need 900 rwhp to be happy. I have a 2002 SVT focus for my DD, and I'd have to says it's probably the most fun to drive car I've ever owned!!! Don't get me wrong it's not nearly as "cool" as my 'stang, but for pure ***** out driving, shifting and running up to 7200 redline it's a blast. And, it still gets 28 mpg while driving crazy and only has 170 hp.