Why aren't you running an oil separator?
4/28/11, 07:42 PM
#21
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From oil that only had 1500 miles on it:
Its not about short term cost. Its about applying sound mechanical knowledge over the life of the engine - from new onward. It not only helps reduce carbon in the intake, valve stems, combustion chamber; its also about keep the proper A/F ratio and avoiding detonation - remember the new pistons aren't forged metal like the old days.
And yes it's a bit of a pain for some knowing they can't go two full tankfuls without draining (depending on the size of your sep). But I'm lifting the hood anyway checking the oil, cleaning the engine bay after washing, etc.
To each their own, but I have a mechanic's mind and intend on caring for my machine properly. Thinking that way has helped my F150 reach 253k and still pullin'!
It also kept my Jensen-Healey/Lotus running 15 years after Jensen went out of business and I finally sold it running strong. Here's one commentary (of many available). Keep in mind Steeda is in a unique partnership in Ford's technology transfer program on some of their items. Surely they wouldn't recommend and sell oil seps if they were detrimental to the engine.
Steeda's oil separator kit reduces detonation, oil burning and deposits on the valves by removing oil drawn through the PCV system before it can contaminate the intake charge.
Excess crankcase pressure (sometimes known as "blow-by") is vented from the crankcase through the PCV system, where it is drawn into the intake manifold and returned by the engine. This re circulated air contains aerated oil from the crankcase which is burned by the engine. Supercharged, nitrous boosted and high mileage engines often draw excessive amounts of oil into the engine through the PCV system. The Steeda oil separator plugs into the PCV hose between the PCV valve and the intake manifold and removes aerated oil from the re circulated air and collects it in a tube that can be drained and recycled.
http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-o...d-mustang.html
Excess crankcase pressure (sometimes known as "blow-by") is vented from the crankcase through the PCV system, where it is drawn into the intake manifold and returned by the engine. This re circulated air contains aerated oil from the crankcase which is burned by the engine. Supercharged, nitrous boosted and high mileage engines often draw excessive amounts of oil into the engine through the PCV system. The Steeda oil separator plugs into the PCV hose between the PCV valve and the intake manifold and removes aerated oil from the re circulated air and collects it in a tube that can be drained and recycled.
http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-o...d-mustang.html
Last edited by cdynaco; 4/28/11 at 07:49 PM.
4/28/11, 08:30 PM
#22
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For the original post, I'm not sure what your unsure about. If ford or any other company were to put everything possible to make an engine last forever, they would cost a fortune and they would sell less cars. Don't over confuse the matter. I put one on my car and was AMAZED......AMAZED at how much oil was deposited in there. Who cares why ford didn't put one in there, concentrate on the fact that oil is flowing back into the intake, period. Every one of the five stangs I have had that hasn't had a catch can when u rip apart the intake for mods, etc you wouldn't believe how black and gunked up they are. If the price is your concern, that's understandable, but to question it's need is ridiculous. I had at least a teaspoon in mine in like 400 miles. Get it...please lol.
4/28/11, 08:52 PM
#23
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N btw for those who are saying they have never heard of a catch can before this forum, that is basically telling me you are not in touch with modern high performance modded cars. Christ if you have ever ripped an engine apart we wouldn't be having this conversation. Will not having a catch can destroy ur new stock five liter, no, but will it make ur car run cleaner, absolutely. While we are on this matter, if fords engineers were truly into giving us the best longest lasting product, why do they come with $hit tires, inadequate suspension, and let's not get started on all the tranny questions out there. Come on man........
4/28/11, 09:04 PM
#24
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Ford or any automaker would never install one of these from the factory. People complain about 5k oil changes. Imagine if they had to empty a catch can from time to time. Thats why the car is designed to burn it off or recirculate. Doesn't mean a catchcan is not helping because it is, I have had one on my car since it was new and I'm glad i chose that route. Trust me your not hurting the car in any way by installing one
Last edited by Cpowell5.0; 4/28/11 at 09:17 PM.
4/28/11, 09:06 PM
#25
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Just a small tidbit - most engines out of Mercedes come with a catch can these days, and if not an actual can, some of them have a catch/valve inside the valve cover itself.
Back in the day, this stuff was just vented to the atmosphere, or a tube pointing down to the road. Same thing with purged fuel vapors. This is a big EPA no-no nowadays, and the most common thing for manufacturer's to do (and the easiest) is to pump it into the intake.
Some companies have attempted to catch the excess and dump it right back into the oil pan, unfortunately this isn't ideal as gas particles merge with the oil, then you end up with gas in your oil, etc etc.
There is no perfect answer - the catch can is just one of the better ideas, as it's no more maintenance than having to fill your gas tank with fuel. No long term harm done gunking up your intake/valves by pumping it into the intake; no gas in your oil pan from trying to redeposit the oil there; all you have to do is empty a little metal container every now and then.
Ford's engineers wanted to do forged rods when they built the Coyote, but couldn't due to cost restrictions. Does that mean forged rods aren't better, just because the car doesn't have them stock?
Back in the day, this stuff was just vented to the atmosphere, or a tube pointing down to the road. Same thing with purged fuel vapors. This is a big EPA no-no nowadays, and the most common thing for manufacturer's to do (and the easiest) is to pump it into the intake.
Some companies have attempted to catch the excess and dump it right back into the oil pan, unfortunately this isn't ideal as gas particles merge with the oil, then you end up with gas in your oil, etc etc.
There is no perfect answer - the catch can is just one of the better ideas, as it's no more maintenance than having to fill your gas tank with fuel. No long term harm done gunking up your intake/valves by pumping it into the intake; no gas in your oil pan from trying to redeposit the oil there; all you have to do is empty a little metal container every now and then.
Ford's engineers wanted to do forged rods when they built the Coyote, but couldn't due to cost restrictions. Does that mean forged rods aren't better, just because the car doesn't have them stock?
4/28/11, 09:26 PM
#26
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Back in the day, this stuff was just vented to the atmosphere, or a tube pointing down to the road. Same thing with purged fuel vapors. This is a big EPA no-no nowadays, and the most common thing for manufacturer's to do (and the easiest) is to pump it into the intake.
Last edited by cdynaco; 4/29/11 at 10:35 AM.
4/28/11, 10:16 PM
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Here is a little science behind why these oil separators have benefits on our gas engine cars...
Diesel engines, because of their necessary very high compression ratios generate significant amounts of blow by and as a result, crankcases must be ventilated. In addition, the heat generated from the engine combustion, blow by and bearings causes the oil to smoke. (actually the oil forms a sub-micron mist that condenses and looks like oil smoke). Because of emission and air pollution issues, these oil mists can't be vented to atmosphere any longer. However, original designs of CCV (closed crankcase ventilation) Systems caused other problems. See these 2 attachments that show their fleet and stationary diesel aftermarket and OEM suppliers approach to oil mist.
http://www.zemarc.com/Content_pages/...ex20040317.pdf
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/s...ary/053490.pdf
Diesel engines, because of their necessary very high compression ratios generate significant amounts of blow by and as a result, crankcases must be ventilated. In addition, the heat generated from the engine combustion, blow by and bearings causes the oil to smoke. (actually the oil forms a sub-micron mist that condenses and looks like oil smoke). Because of emission and air pollution issues, these oil mists can't be vented to atmosphere any longer. However, original designs of CCV (closed crankcase ventilation) Systems caused other problems. See these 2 attachments that show their fleet and stationary diesel aftermarket and OEM suppliers approach to oil mist.
http://www.zemarc.com/Content_pages/...ex20040317.pdf
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/s...ary/053490.pdf
4/29/11, 10:20 AM
#29
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[quote=HPwhitevert;6062382smoke. (actually the oil forms a sub-micron mist that condenses and looks like oil smoke). Because of emission and air pollution issues, these oil mists can't be vented to atmosphere any longer. However, original designs of CCV (closed crankcase ventilation) Systems caused other problems. See these 2 attachments that show their fleet and stationary diesel aftermarket and OEM suppliers approach to oil mist.
That's why I use Amsoil. It don't build up a mist in your engine and I think that's why I never had oil in the plenum of my 07 GT.
That's why I use Amsoil. It don't build up a mist in your engine and I think that's why I never had oil in the plenum of my 07 GT.
4/29/11, 11:27 AM
#30
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the input. There are some good points in this thread and also some flawed logic and fairly specious arguments in favor of the catch can.
My original question was why AREN'T you running one? Is there anyone else who can share their opinion?
My gut feeling is that the catch can is useful and may reduce deteroration of the engine in the long run but unlike some in this thread, I'm not willing to label who disagree as ignorant...and I also know that a gut feeling is not always the best guide for our actions.
Some of you guys may claim to have a "mechanic's mind" but I would rather hear from engineers on this one.
So years back, I had to pull the intake manifold on my Miata and sure enough, it was coated with oil residue....and the sight of it disturbed me...but the car already had 120k miles on it and I didn't have time to do a complete engine tear down to clean evrything... so I put it back together and 80,000 miles later (200k miles now!) the motor still runs like a top, unsightly sludge and all. Go figure.
My original question was why AREN'T you running one? Is there anyone else who can share their opinion?
My gut feeling is that the catch can is useful and may reduce deteroration of the engine in the long run but unlike some in this thread, I'm not willing to label who disagree as ignorant...and I also know that a gut feeling is not always the best guide for our actions.
Some of you guys may claim to have a "mechanic's mind" but I would rather hear from engineers on this one.
So years back, I had to pull the intake manifold on my Miata and sure enough, it was coated with oil residue....and the sight of it disturbed me...but the car already had 120k miles on it and I didn't have time to do a complete engine tear down to clean evrything... so I put it back together and 80,000 miles later (200k miles now!) the motor still runs like a top, unsightly sludge and all. Go figure.
4/29/11, 11:45 AM
#31
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I don't have one on my car because American Muscle backordered it, but now I hear it is on the way!
I think it is questionable whether it is really "needed" but I like the idea of keeping that crap out of the intake, so I'm going for it.
I didn't realize it would collect that much oil though! I was planning to empty it at oil change time and put it in with the used oil; maybe I need to look at it more often than that and will have to store it somewhere until it goes back to Wally World with the rest of the used oil.
I think it is questionable whether it is really "needed" but I like the idea of keeping that crap out of the intake, so I'm going for it.
I didn't realize it would collect that much oil though! I was planning to empty it at oil change time and put it in with the used oil; maybe I need to look at it more often than that and will have to store it somewhere until it goes back to Wally World with the rest of the used oil.
4/29/11, 12:41 PM
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"My original question was why AREN'T you running one?...
Some of you guys may claim to have a 'mechanic's mind' but I would rather hear from engineers on this one."
GOOD POINT (above). What, if any, are the down sides from using an oil separator in the PCV line?
Some of you guys may claim to have a 'mechanic's mind' but I would rather hear from engineers on this one."
GOOD POINT (above). What, if any, are the down sides from using an oil separator in the PCV line?
4/29/11, 01:03 PM
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lol...coming from someone who deals with "engineers" on a daily basis I can tell you that the thought process of them being smarter than the mechanics is absurd. Engineers know things cause books tell them, while mechanics know things from experience. This goes for all fields.
4/29/11, 01:17 PM
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lol...coming from someone who deals with "engineers" on a daily basis I can tell you that the thought process of them being smarter than the mechanics is absurd. Engineers know things cause books tell them, while mechanics know things from experience. This goes for all fields.
4/29/11, 01:18 PM
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lol...coming from someone who deals with "engineers" on a daily basis I can tell you that the thought process of them being smarter than the mechanics is absurd. Engineers know things cause books tell them, while mechanics know things from experience. This goes for all fields.
4/29/11, 01:25 PM
#36
MOTM Committee Member
This is info I got from an engineer who designs Ford motors. He shell remain anonymous of course, unless he would wish to share further.
"With critical components becoming smaller and smaller in the name of reducing parasitic losses -- friction, in cases like these -- I'd say blow-by such as this will become the norm (the 4.6L 3V as well as Chevy's V8's are notorious for this type of blow-by, too). Ford is only concerned with giving you 412 horsepower, making the engine, car and components last 150,000+ miles and warrantying said parts for however long the terms state. While a catch can would definitely help keep things clean, the oil blow-by's negative impact on your engine and components such as the intake are so negligible in terms of the big picture that Ford and other manufacturers just can't justify the cost, especially on a niche vehicle meant to fit a certain price target."
After hearing that I decided to save my money
"With critical components becoming smaller and smaller in the name of reducing parasitic losses -- friction, in cases like these -- I'd say blow-by such as this will become the norm (the 4.6L 3V as well as Chevy's V8's are notorious for this type of blow-by, too). Ford is only concerned with giving you 412 horsepower, making the engine, car and components last 150,000+ miles and warrantying said parts for however long the terms state. While a catch can would definitely help keep things clean, the oil blow-by's negative impact on your engine and components such as the intake are so negligible in terms of the big picture that Ford and other manufacturers just can't justify the cost, especially on a niche vehicle meant to fit a certain price target."
After hearing that I decided to save my money
Last edited by stangfoeva; 4/29/11 at 01:26 PM.
4/29/11, 01:28 PM
#37
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I got mine from BKU Motorsports who runs a race shop, has a Lightning race team, and is from a family of Ford Dealers. He hardly posts, but when you talk to him you know this guy isn't some hack.
Sadly we lost some great technical posts in the Labor Day 09 crash, but I saved a few notes. As you will read, the overdrafting of modern engines is simply to allow longer intervals between oil changes, regardless of piping the excess into the combustion chamber for the (negative) benefit of carbon caking.
You asked for it. This was a 6.09 response to a member who was having a drastic increase in PCV flow after installing cams. Here you go:
I rarely chime in on forums, because debating with keyboard Tech's is not my idea of fun, but I told ***** I would try to shine some light on the excessive oil situation, and MOST of you folks seem normal.
Seeing some of the questions and comments in other posts, I thought it might help if some of you look at PCV flow in a different manor. First, pressure and flow are two totally different things, and both are very important to the PCV system. As an example I hear a lot of people referring to a specific # InHg of vacuum relative to diagnosing the PCV system. Vacuum is important, and should maintain a close proximity to your intake manifold vacuum, but flow is a volumetric measurement, normally measured in CFM for PCV systems. So lets say you see 22 InHg of vacuum on the high side for your PCV system, that would be within range, but if you saw 22 InHg @ 150 CFM, that would be an extreme amount of over drafting on the crankcase. Likewise, if you saw 22 InHg @ 2 CFM that would not be sufficient flow to evacuate crankcase gases. Normally in most cases an over drafting of the crankcase is present. This is why just about all engines suffer from oil in the induction system.
When the engineers are designing the engine packages in most vehicles the only number they are concerned with is the minimum flow rate required to evacuate the crankcase gases. Because of this, they allow for too much flow (CFM) to the PCV system, creating oil issues right from the beginning. This is very easy to understand looking at their primary objective, and that is not emissions, which is what the PCV system was primarily designed for in the beginning. You see, when they increase flow to the PCV system, they evacuate more crankcase gases, which allows for increased service intervals. As you can see with many new cars today, many don't require oil changes until 7500 miles. If you follow the history of the PCV system you’ll see what I mean. Remember when break-in oil changes were recommended, that important 500 mile oil change. Back then a lot of engines were open vented with valve cover breathers, to vent crankcase pressure and oil changes were recommended every 1500-2000 miles depending on driving condition.
Then along came open loop PCV systems and push-pull systems, along with better oils, and the change intervals went up again. Now with closed loop PCV systems, and modern oils, some vehicles are on a 10,000 mile change interval. This is why I always recommend anyone who has deleted their PCV system, stay away from the west coast unless you want a nasty fine and change your oil every 2000 miles.
Never the less this isn't a problem for most, most are dealing with the over drafting issue and oil in your intake, causing detonation issues and plug fowling along with horsepower robbing sludge building in your intakes, plates, burning to your valves causing intake flow issues, etc. Hence the reason we designed our custom separators over 12 years ago with internal regulation to counteract against the over drafting on the crankcase, reducing the oil that actually makes it into the PCV system, and then catching the oil that does in the separator itself. Hopefully this shines a little more light on the PCV system, and possible issues some are having.
As a side note, air cleaner issues maybe more common than anyone knows. Saturday I had another customer from central Florida bring his Bullitt by with concerns of increased oil in his separator. Same thing, I popped the hood, saw his dirty air cleaner and had a laugh. It's basic hydrodynamics 101; high areas of pressure are always going to feed to low areas of pressure no matter what, and the path of least resistance will always be followed!!! Simply, if your air cleaner is clogged and restricting flow, the motor still needs to breath, and it will pull air from any source possible, and the only other open source for the intake to pull air from is the PCV system, and if the air filter is clogged, the pressure and the flow will be increased in the PCV system because of the volumetric inefficiency of the PCV system. There is simply not enough volume in the PCV lines to feed the engine as a primary source for induction. Just think about it, it should all be making sense by now!!!
Brett
BKU Motorsports
Seeing some of the questions and comments in other posts, I thought it might help if some of you look at PCV flow in a different manor. First, pressure and flow are two totally different things, and both are very important to the PCV system. As an example I hear a lot of people referring to a specific # InHg of vacuum relative to diagnosing the PCV system. Vacuum is important, and should maintain a close proximity to your intake manifold vacuum, but flow is a volumetric measurement, normally measured in CFM for PCV systems. So lets say you see 22 InHg of vacuum on the high side for your PCV system, that would be within range, but if you saw 22 InHg @ 150 CFM, that would be an extreme amount of over drafting on the crankcase. Likewise, if you saw 22 InHg @ 2 CFM that would not be sufficient flow to evacuate crankcase gases. Normally in most cases an over drafting of the crankcase is present. This is why just about all engines suffer from oil in the induction system.
When the engineers are designing the engine packages in most vehicles the only number they are concerned with is the minimum flow rate required to evacuate the crankcase gases. Because of this, they allow for too much flow (CFM) to the PCV system, creating oil issues right from the beginning. This is very easy to understand looking at their primary objective, and that is not emissions, which is what the PCV system was primarily designed for in the beginning. You see, when they increase flow to the PCV system, they evacuate more crankcase gases, which allows for increased service intervals. As you can see with many new cars today, many don't require oil changes until 7500 miles. If you follow the history of the PCV system you’ll see what I mean. Remember when break-in oil changes were recommended, that important 500 mile oil change. Back then a lot of engines were open vented with valve cover breathers, to vent crankcase pressure and oil changes were recommended every 1500-2000 miles depending on driving condition.
Then along came open loop PCV systems and push-pull systems, along with better oils, and the change intervals went up again. Now with closed loop PCV systems, and modern oils, some vehicles are on a 10,000 mile change interval. This is why I always recommend anyone who has deleted their PCV system, stay away from the west coast unless you want a nasty fine and change your oil every 2000 miles.
Never the less this isn't a problem for most, most are dealing with the over drafting issue and oil in your intake, causing detonation issues and plug fowling along with horsepower robbing sludge building in your intakes, plates, burning to your valves causing intake flow issues, etc. Hence the reason we designed our custom separators over 12 years ago with internal regulation to counteract against the over drafting on the crankcase, reducing the oil that actually makes it into the PCV system, and then catching the oil that does in the separator itself. Hopefully this shines a little more light on the PCV system, and possible issues some are having.
As a side note, air cleaner issues maybe more common than anyone knows. Saturday I had another customer from central Florida bring his Bullitt by with concerns of increased oil in his separator. Same thing, I popped the hood, saw his dirty air cleaner and had a laugh. It's basic hydrodynamics 101; high areas of pressure are always going to feed to low areas of pressure no matter what, and the path of least resistance will always be followed!!! Simply, if your air cleaner is clogged and restricting flow, the motor still needs to breath, and it will pull air from any source possible, and the only other open source for the intake to pull air from is the PCV system, and if the air filter is clogged, the pressure and the flow will be increased in the PCV system because of the volumetric inefficiency of the PCV system. There is simply not enough volume in the PCV lines to feed the engine as a primary source for induction. Just think about it, it should all be making sense by now!!!
Brett
BKU Motorsports
Last edited by cdynaco; 4/29/11 at 01:57 PM.
4/29/11, 01:36 PM
#38
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the oil blow-by's negative impact on your engine and components such as the intake are so negligible in terms of the big picture that Ford and other manufacturers just can't justify the cost, especially on a niche vehicle meant to fit a certain price target."
After hearing that I decided to save my money
After hearing that I decided to save my money
It might be a niche vehicle to him and Ford, but its the ONLY hot rod I own. That makes it a majority vehicle in my life, not a niche vehicle.
I respectfully disagree. This much carbon at just 13k miles is not what I would call 'negligible' for an engine I want to keep for 100k and have it run at its full potential for all of those miles. And a lousy $50 bucks solves the problem.
But each their own.
Last edited by cdynaco; 4/29/11 at 01:37 PM.
4/29/11, 01:47 PM
#39
MOTM Committee Member
Essentially yes. The question I had asked him was "Is a catch can necessary? And if so why doesn't Ford have it come standard?"
That was his response and it makes sense perfect sense.
They might be more necessary in that motor you posted Charlie, but unless we see pics of a torn down coyote its almost irrelevant
That was his response and it makes sense perfect sense.
They might be more necessary in that motor you posted Charlie, but unless we see pics of a torn down coyote its almost irrelevant
